24 Camera System Required - What direction to take?

[SambaNoodles 0]

Hi. I want to put together a 24-camera CCTV system for a retail store.

 

The max budget is U.S $4000 (that includes cameras, all hardware, software cabling).

 

I hear that IP-based systems have come down in price. But am I able to put together a 24-channel IP based system (including software) on a budget of $4000?

 

If not, then what is the next best option? Previously I have installed an 8-channel GeoVision system using analog based cameras with a PC-based DVR. But it seems GeoVision cards max out at 16 cameras?

 

Any other recommendations?

[dopalgangr 1]

Even if you did it yourself, I seriously doubt you can get a system with 24 cameras (that are quality of course) plus a dvr solution and all the cabling for $4k . Plan on at least double your budget. You could get 6 of these http://www.x10.com/products4/google/xx16a_as_cam_41806_ps_vcr_2_0418.html

[dopalgangr 1]

Or this may work (prices are retail of course)

 

24 Acti 4201 - $250 each = $6000 (assuming all cameras are inside)

1000' of CAT 6 - $60 each (dont know how much you will need

24 channel NVR Software (free with the cameras if you can get it to work) if not Luxriot is $1300 for unlimited cameras

PC to record them $1200

Cisco SLM248G4PS 48-port Gigabit Smart Ethernet Switch with PoE - $730

 

Total - $9350

 

 

EDIT- and actually you only get 16 cameras for free, so you would have to purchase the NVR software

Edited September 25, 2009 by Guest

[Soundy 1]

Where do you find 1000' of Cat6 for $60??!! I'm lucky to find Cat5e for that, wholesale! Retail on 1000' box of Cat6 is $200+!

Edited September 24, 2009 by Guest

[SambaNoodles 0]

Or this may work (prices are retail of course)

 

24 Acti 4201 - $250 each = $6000 (assuming all cameras are inside)

1000' of CAT 6 - $60 each (dont know how much you will need

24 channel NVR Software (free with the cameras if you can get it to work) if not Luxriot is $1300 for unlimited cameras

PC to record them $1200

Cisco SLM248G4PS 48-port Gigabit Smart Ethernet Switch with PoE - $730

 

Total - $9350

 

Thanks to all for the prompt replies.

 

$10,000 is very steep for my budget. Do you really get your money's worth for this type of system over say, a 24-channel analog system (PC-DVR based). If this is the cheapest IP based system money can buy today, should I expect it to have realibility issues? software/hardware bugs etc?

[dopalgangr 1]

Where do you find 1000' of Cat6 for $60??!! I'm lucky to find Cat5e for that, wholesale! Retail on 1000' box of Cat6 is $200+!

 

Well, I'm a cheap skate (or maybe just thrifty) and hate to post this (admin please remove if this violates the rules) but when buying things the thrifty buyer searches everywhere. Here it is for $75 and free shipping. I know if I dig enough I could find it cheaper http://www.eforcity.com/pcabcat60027.html?efprcggbadtf090605=pcabcat60027 use the code SHIP25 for free shipping.

 

 

As Mike from Shoreview will attest, I am the Google master

Edited September 25, 2009 by Guest

[dopalgangr 1]

I almost posted a price list with the same build out as Mike from his site, but I was afraid to break any rules. So you could go that way too.

 

EDIT- I see Mike has himself a new banner flashing above, so I guess its legit. Way to go Mike!!

Edited September 25, 2009 by Guest

[dopalgangr 1]

Thanks to all for the prompt replies.

 

$10,000 is very steep for my budget. Do you really get your money's worth for this type of system over say, a 24-channel analog system (PC-DVR based). If this is the cheapest IP based system money can buy today, should I expect it to have reliability issues? software/hardware bugs etc?

 

Well, I have personally owned the DVR's that Mike recommended and found them to be solid systems. I think for the same money by the time you purchase an equivalent PC-Card that can support 24 cameras at the same resolution, you may find that it is very expensive. Then add a pc that can handle that hardware and the drives for all that storage and it will crank the price back up again. Personally I prefer the stand-alone over the pc-card because I dont have to worry about compatibility issues or other things. But everyone has their preferences.

 

Like Mike said, we would need more information on the types of cameras and where and how they would be utilized to ensure you purchase the correct ones for the task at hand. His is closer to your budget though.

[shoreviewsecurity 0]

Yes, I often refer to dopalgangr as Mr. Google

[dopalgangr 1]

I see everyone is in the forum. You know what would be great would be if the forum had a chat style room where we could all enter and talk to each other live. That would be cool.

[Soundy 1]

Where do you find 1000' of Cat6 for $60??!! I'm lucky to find Cat5e for that, wholesale! Retail on 1000' box of Cat6 is $200+!

 

Well, I'm a cheap skate (or maybe just thrifty) and hate to post this (admin please remove if this violates the rules) but when buying things the thrifty buyer searches everywhere.

 

Yeah, I dunno that I'd be trusting my jobs to "thrifty" cable... remember this thread? http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17877

[dopalgangr 1]

Where do you find 1000' of Cat6 for $60??!! I'm lucky to find Cat5e for that, wholesale! Retail on 1000' box of Cat6 is $200+!

 

Well, I'm a cheap skate (or maybe just thrifty) and hate to post this (admin please remove if this violates the rules) but when buying things the thrifty buyer searches everywhere.

 

Yeah, I dunno that I'd be trusting my jobs to "thrifty" cable... remember this thread? http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17877

 

Yeah, thats true with anything thats "less expensive". I would always buy one first to test the quality. Cat6 is a heaver gauge wire as well and should have caused less problems for the guy in that thread had he used it. I generally put RJ45's on each end when I first open the box and run my Fluke Networks Net Tool on it to send some packets and test the cable. This also tells me how long it is so I know if I got shorted or not

[SambaNoodles 0]

Thanks to all for the prompt replies.

 

$10,000 is very steep for my budget. Do you really get your money's worth for this type of system over say, a 24-channel analog system (PC-DVR based). If this is the cheapest IP based system money can buy today, should I expect it to have reliability issues? software/hardware bugs etc?

 

Well, I have personally owned the DVR's that Mike recommended and found them to be solid systems. I think for the same money by the time you purchase an equivalent PC-Card that can support 24 cameras at the same resolution, you may find that it is very expensive. Then add a pc that can handle that hardware and the drives for all that storage and it will crank the price back up again. Personally I prefer the stand-alone over the pc-card because I dont have to worry about compatibility issues or other things. But everyone has their preferences.

 

Like Mike said, we would need more information on the types of cameras and where and how they would be utilized to ensure you purchase the correct ones for the task at hand. His is closer to your budget though.

 

Well, I would like to have the ability to view remotely (over the internet) all 24-channels simultaneously in real-time (30 FPS) at a decent resolution.

I don't care to store more than one-week of recorded video, and frankly, the recording can be motion-detected, and at a lower resolution if necessary. But the "live" view locally and remotely needs to be good quality. The location where the cameras are installed will have access to an internet connection of maximum 1Mbps upload...which i'm guessing may not be enough.

 

Also, i hate it when cameras fail, so even though i'm on a budget, i do like reliabile hardware.

[SambaNoodles 0]

Also, I should mention that a wise old man once told me, for anything PC-DVR related, you can never go wrong with GeoVision.

 

If i'm gonna go with GeoVision, what is the best way to configure a 24-channel system.

 

I notice that there latest card GV-2008 supports a maximum of 8 cameras. How come they haven't built a 16ch card yet that does Hardware compression. If I go with the GV-1480 (which happens to support 16 channels), I'm guessing it will use up too much CPU resources if viewing remotely in real-time, while simultaenously recording, and offering local viewing as well....am i wrong here? Is the GV-1480 perfectly capable of doing everyhing i need so long as I have the right computer hardware supporting it?

[dopalgangr 1]

I'm not sure if your looking for something you saw in Mission Impossible or something Just kidding. I cant speak to the Geovision cards but from what I've read in hear and the pictures and video people have posted they seem top notch.

 

As for the reliability of the camera, that too really will vary. I have bought name brand cameras that have failed on me. I would look for ones that carry good warranties and have good return policies. I believe some (or all) Speco cameras for instance have 3yr warranties but I have heard of people on here having issues with them. So what good is it even though its covered for 3yrs if I have to pay and insure it to ship it to them to fix?

 

For the viewing question, if your "view locally" means looking at them over the monitor thats connected directly to the DVR I would say that the quality would be excellent. However if your meaning connecting to them via your lan it still becomes a bandwidth issue. Viewing all the cameras at full resolution over 1Meg connection will be impossible. Others please correct me here if I'm wrong.

[Soundy 1]

Well, I would like to have the ability to view remotely (over the internet) all 24-channels simultaneously in real-time (30 FPS) at a decent resolution.

 

Absolutely 100% not possible. WAY too much bandwidth required, unless you have dedicated T3 or fiber lines at both ends. Never even get close with standard broadband, especially since most ISPs severely limit the upstream bandwidth.

 

I don't care to store more than one-week of recorded video, and frankly, the recording can be motion-detected, and at a lower resolution if necessary. But the "live" view locally and remotely needs to be good quality. The location where the cameras are installed will have access to an internet connection of maximum 1Mbps upload...which i'm guessing may not be enough.

 

Not even close.

 

Also, i hate it when cameras fail, so even though i'm on a budget, i do like reliabile hardware.

 

You get what you pay for. 'Nuff said.

[Soundy 1]

Also, I should mention that a wise old man once told me, for anything PC-DVR related, you can never go wrong with GeoVision.

 

From what I've seen of them... yes you can. They're not "junk" by any means, but they're hardly top of the heap, either.

 

Take a look at some of 3xLogic's VIGIL offerings - www.3xlogic.com. Little pricier than GV, but once again, you get what you pay for. I FAR prefer them to GV, as does one of our major clients who we're slowly upgrading from GV systems to Vigils.

[thewireguys 3]

 

Well, I would like to have the ability to view remotely (over the internet) all 24-channels simultaneously in real-time (30 FPS) at a decent resolution.

I don't care to store more than one-week of recorded video, and frankly, the recording can be motion-detected, and at a lower resolution if necessary. But the "live" view locally and remotely needs to be good quality. The location where the cameras are installed will have access to an internet connection of maximum 1Mbps upload...which i'm guessing may not be enough.

 

Also, i hate it when cameras fail, so even though i'm on a budget, i do like reliabile hardware.

 

Remote viewing at D1 and 30FPS is not gonna happen.... with 24 cameras you will be lucky to get 1FPS at CIF. Also your budget for 24 cameras is very tight. $6000/24= $250 per camera channel that is the cost of most quality analog cameras with out anything else. Could you do the system in-stages? or reduce the number of cameras?

 

If you do a hybrid system you may be able to reduce the number of cameras by replacing some cameras with megapixel cameras. As the one guy said ACTI has indoor MP cameras from $300 and outdoor cameras $600.

[rory 0]

Even if you did it yourself, I seriously doubt you can get a system with 24 cameras (that are quality of course) plus a dvr solution and all the cabling for $4k . Plan on at least double your budget. You could get 6 of these http://www.x10.com/products4/google/xx16a_as_cam_41806_ps_vcr_2_0418.html

 

that system is so funny and a good example for people to see what NOT to buy.

 

to the OP. 24 cameras are alot of cameras, who is going to maintain them? Eg. clean them? And being on that small budget, I would drop it down to 16, put them in the best locations, and call it a day. I dont think you will be able to do anything besides very budget cameras for that system.

 

Another thing to note, if you were to go with BW only cameras you will get much faster remote video due to a smaller image size. Check KT&C bullet cameras if interested in the cheap bullets, BW or Color, Mini Cube cameras etc.

 

Dont go cheap on the Distributed Fused Power Supplies and the Siamese Cable.

[Soundy 1]

If you do a hybrid system you may be able to reduce the number of cameras by replacing some cameras with megapixel cameras.

 

This is something to consider - in some instances, a single 1.3MP camera can give you the same coverage as two, three, or even four analog cameras. With proper placement, it may be possible to greatly reduce your camera count.

[SambaNoodles 0]

to the OP. 24 cameras are alot of cameras, who is going to maintain them? Eg. clean them? And being on that small budget, I would drop it down to 16, put them in the best locations, and call it a day. I dont think you will be able to do anything besides very budget cameras for that system.

 

Another thing to note, if you were to go with BW only cameras you will get much faster remote video due to a smaller image size. Check KT&C bullet cameras if interested in the cheap bullets, BW or Color, Mini Cube cameras etc.

 

Dont go cheap on the Distributed Fused Power Supplies and the Siamese Cable.

 

Based on the replies to this thread, i have decided to reduce the number of cameras to 16. All of a sudden, the PC-DVR based approach starts to look a LOT more affordable.

 

Also, this might be a stupid question, but someone on this thread mentioned that using IP Megapixel cameras would help reduce the total number of cameras required? Why is that? Is the Field-of-View wider for IP Megapixel cameras?

[Soundy 1]

to the OP. 24 cameras are alot of cameras, who is going to maintain them? Eg. clean them? And being on that small budget, I would drop it down to 16, put them in the best locations, and call it a day. I dont think you will be able to do anything besides very budget cameras for that system.

 

Another thing to note, if you were to go with BW only cameras you will get much faster remote video due to a smaller image size. Check KT&C bullet cameras if interested in the cheap bullets, BW or Color, Mini Cube cameras etc.

 

Dont go cheap on the Distributed Fused Power Supplies and the Siamese Cable.

 

Based on the replies to this thread, i have decided to reduce the number of cameras to 16. All of a sudden, the PC-DVR based approach starts to look a LOT more affordable.

 

Also, this might be a stupid question, but someone on this thread mentioned that using IP Megapixel cameras would help reduce the total number of cameras required? Why is that? Is the Field-of-View wider for IP Megapixel cameras?

 

Yeah, I mentioned it in the post immediately preceding

 

Because they're higher resolution, megapixel cameras allow you to use a wider field of view with more detail. For example, assume you're comparing to a 640x480 resolution analog camera... 1.2MP is 1280x960 - twice the horizontal and vertical resolution, or four times the total resolution. Thus, you could cover four times the area with the same level of detail... or the same area with four times the detail... or anywhere in between.

[Soundy 1]

Because they're higher resolution, megapixel cameras allow you to use a wider field of view with more detail. For example, assume you're comparing to a 640x480 resolution analog camera... 1.2MP is 1280x960 - twice the horizontal and vertical resolution, or four times the total resolution. Thus, you could cover four times the area with the same level of detail... or the same area with four times the detail... or anywhere in between.

 

Here's an example, BTW...

 

This is a standard analog dome camera at CIF resolution:

 

 

This is a 1.3MP (1280x1024) IQEye camera in approximately the same position (you can see the dome in the lower-left of this view):

 

[SambaNoodles 0]

Wow. I guess a picture really is worth a thousand words. Is the Field-of-View just dependent on the number of Megapixels the IP camera provides? Then, I can produce and record images like the one you posted, with the cheapest $250-$300 IP camera?

 

Now I'm thinking I should go with a hybrid solution (4 IP camera, 12 regular).

 

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, why wouldn't everybody (at least for commercial applications) be jumping on the IP-based solution as opposed to the usual analog-camera DVR (PC or standalone), considering you can significantly reduce the camera count by using IP cameras? If you can reduce your camera count by say 50%, don't you roughly reduce your overall cost for an IP-based NVR system by around 50%? Is the cost of the software the mitigating factor here? In other words, I'm asking... where's the catch?

[rory 0]

This is a standard analog dome camera at CIF resolution:

 

 

* cough * that looks more like a standard ebay dome

my cameras dont look anything like that.

And that must be around 8mm.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Guest