Need help with system re-design please!!

[TVEngineer77 0]

OK gang, I am really in need of your help. First let me give you a little background of the system I have now and the issues I have with it. I aplogize in advance for the length of this post, but I'm in dire need of help and second opinions here.

 

________________

 

I had a system installed by a company for our HOA. It is to monitor our entrance/exit gates as well as a few other common areas of our property. The system consists of 2 separate systems, both similar in design; 2 systems were installed because of separate gated entrances/exits to our community.

 

System 1:

 

(4) SC-Black BLK-CPD126VS Outdoor IR Dome cameras

(1) OpenEye OE-129 Embedded series DVR (4ch, 120PPS, Mpeg-4 compression)

 

System 2 (now):

(2) Samsung SCC-B9371 Bullet IR cameras

(1) OpenEye CM-300 Dome Day/night camera

(1) OpenEye OE-129 DVR, same as above

(originally System 2 had 3 of the SC-Black cameras to match System 1, but they were changed due to crappy picture and issues with the IR reflecting off the reflective warning strips on our gates)

 

The requirements were that we would have a detailed system enough to make out license plates and clearly identify vehicles that come into and out of our community. Also we needed to monitor kids that wait on one area as a bus stop, for their safety and ours, so facial details were important to a degree. I said from day one I wanted a system that would do 30FPS on 4 cameras. I don't necessarily need that but I wanted to be sure our system was powerful enough.

 

Currently we are running System 1 at 2CIF at 15PPS, Ultra quality. That is the maximum this DVR can handle as I learned after the fact that the 120PPS capability is based on CIF (352x240) images only. That is not enough detail for me. System 2 is running a mixture of qualities, I believe the bullet cams are running at 2CIF 8PPS, and the Day/Night cam is running at 4CIF 15PPS.

 

On both systems the cameras are all analog composite feeds to the DVR, not IP.

 

___________

 

Ok, now that you have the current system, I need suggestions on what to do to improve the system. I'm open to anything, including replacing the DVR and cameras to whatever new ones you suggest.

 

The cameras are all mounted about 15 feet up on an aluminum pole. The pole is not more than 20 feet from the intended target view of the camera. I would post pics from our cameras but I guess I cannot until I have 5 posts. That sucks.

 

Anyhow, I have questions like: Do you think switching to IP cameras with a high megapixel would work better? Do you think getting a DVR that does MJPEG would be better? Is using analog composite video from the cameras a bad idea nowadays?

 

It's really important for me to get much better picture quality. I don't necessarily need high PPS, just need to be able to handle fast motion and give me a clear picture when I freeze it.

 

Any advice is very much appreciated!

 

Brian

[thewireguys 3]

OK gang, I am really in need of your help. First let me give you a little background of the system I have now and the issues I have with it. I aplogize in advance for the length of this post, but I'm in dire need of help and second opinions here.

 

________________

 

I had a system installed by a company for our HOA. It is to monitor our entrance/exit gates as well as a few other common areas of our property. The system consists of 2 separate systems, both similar in design; 2 systems were installed because of separate gated entrances/exits to our community.

 

System 1:

 

(4) SC-Black BLK-CPD126VS Outdoor IR Dome cameras

(1) OpenEye OE-129 Embedded series DVR (4ch, 120PPS, Mpeg-4 compression)

 

System 2 (now):

(2) Samsung SCC-B9371 Bullet IR cameras

(1) OpenEye CM-300 Dome Day/night camera

(1) OpenEye OE-129 DVR, same as above

(originally System 2 had 3 of the SC-Black cameras to match System 1, but they were changed due to crappy picture and issues with the IR reflecting off the reflective warning strips on our gates)

 

The requirements were that we would have a detailed system enough to make out license plates and clearly identify vehicles that come into and out of our community. Also we needed to monitor kids that wait on one area as a bus stop, for their safety and ours, so facial details were important to a degree. I said from day one I wanted a system that would do 30FPS on 4 cameras. I don't necessarily need that but I wanted to be sure our system was powerful enough.

 

Currently we are running System 1 at 2CIF at 15PPS, Ultra quality. That is the maximum this DVR can handle as I learned after the fact that the 120PPS capability is based on CIF (352x240) images only. That is not enough detail for me. System 2 is running a mixture of qualities, I believe the bullet cams are running at 2CIF 8PPS, and the Day/Night cam is running at 4CIF 15PPS.

 

On both systems the cameras are all analog composite feeds to the DVR, not IP.

 

___________

 

Ok, now that you have the current system, I need suggestions on what to do to improve the system. I'm open to anything, including replacing the DVR and cameras to whatever new ones you suggest.

 

The cameras are all mounted about 15 feet up on an aluminum pole. The pole is not more than 20 feet from the intended target view of the camera. I would post pics from our cameras but I guess I cannot until I have 5 posts. That sucks.

 

Anyhow, I have questions like: Do you think switching to IP cameras with a high megapixel would work better? Do you think getting a DVR that does MJPEG would be better? Is using analog composite video from the cameras a bad idea nowadays?

 

It's really important for me to get much better picture quality. I don't necessarily need high PPS, just need to be able to handle fast motion and give me a clear picture when I freeze it.

 

Any advice is very much appreciated!

 

Brian

 

Interesting...... Did you have a budget for the installers for this system? Do you need good night time images?

 

Anyhow, I have questions like: Do you think switching to IP cameras with a high megapixel would work better?

 

Megapixel cameras will definitely give you a more detailed image but they are going to cost a lot more and you will have to change out your DVR and start all over.

 

 

Do you think getting a DVR that does MJPEG would be better?

 

I would recommend H.264 for compression with IP/Megapixel cameras.... you would see about 60% reduction in storage over MJPEG

 

Is using analog composite video from the cameras a bad idea nowadays?

 

Not at all..... Megapixel cameras can do give you 2 major advantages over analog . Give you more detail in the same FOV or cover a larger area will the same detail. But you will have more storage requirements and you will have to add IR or white light to get really good night time images. Also you will need a progressive scan camera to get good stills on moving objects with the right lighting and exposure settings

Edited October 2, 2009 by Guest

[TVEngineer77 0]

We didn't have a specific budget in mind, but to give you an idea, we've spent about 12k on what we have thus far. At this point we have only paid the deposit on the system so we will still withhold the rest of the amount until things are brought to my satisfaction.

 

And as far as good night vision, yes it's a requirement. I'm not opposed at all to using IR to light up the areas at night, I just need a good quality FOV at 40-60 pixels per frame.

[thewireguys 3]

We didn't have a specific budget in mind, but to give you an idea, we've spent about 12k on what we have thus far. At this point we have only paid the deposit on the system so we will still withhold the rest of the amount until things are brought to my satisfaction.

 

And as far as good night vision, yes it's a requirement. I'm not opposed at all to using IR to light up the areas at night, I just need a good quality FOV at 40-60 pixels per frame.

 

You mean Pixels Per Foot?

[TVEngineer77 0]

crap, yes, I meant Pixels Per Foot. I'm a video guy and always think the F is FRAME

[thewireguys 3]

crap, yes, I meant Pixels Per Foot. I'm a video guy and always think the F is FRAME

 

Think that might be part of the problem Don't take offense to this but your used to better image quality that just isn't possible in CCTV. Megapixel cameras are a big step forward but they still have there drawbacks.

 

I use Arecont cameras for outdoor megapixel cameras

 

http://www.arecontvision.com/

 

Here is there pixel density chart this might help you out

 

http://www.arecontvision.com/uploads/file/Arecont%20Camera,%20Lens,%20and%20Pixel%20Density%20Chart%20-%20English.pdf

[TVEngineer77 0]

LOL yeah I understand I'm not going to be able to get what I'm used to seeing in professional video out of CCTV Surveillance cameras, but there are some good cameras and DVR's out there that have to be better than old non-megapixel cameras.

 

How hard is it to deal with low lighting conditions using a megapixel camera? Do they see ok at night or do I need to use IR emitters or what?

[thewireguys 3]

There is 3 Megapixel cameras that I can recommend 2 of them I have used and installed the other one guys on the forum say it performs well.

 

depending on the light levels yes you will have to add IR or white light

 

Arecont 3130/3135 (the 3135 is the h.264 version that was just announced at ASIS I don't know when it will be available)

 

Mobotix M12/D12

 

Images from both cameras

 

http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17201&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=arecont&start=0

 

Panasonic WV-NP502 (have not used this camera yet)

 

images

 

http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17863&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=panasonic&start=0

[rory 0]

Sounds like you probably just got a low quality CCTV system, it can definitely be better then that. Most of the budget 4 Channel DVRs have and I will say it as best i can - HORRIBLE RECORDING QUALITY - the avermedia is one of the best I have seen but it comes with a price, the cost plus the higher the quality setting, the slower it is over the net and actually it is very very slow for some reason. Either way they are still typically very limited and their evidence sharing features typically suck big time.

 

If you want something of better quality and with the advantage of better evidence sharing as well as other features, you can upgrade the DVR to a PC based one, but dont use H264 as mentioned as most PC DVRs suck at their H264 codec, use MPEG4 or MJPEG if its available (eg. with Geo I use Mpeg4 for recording and H264 for remote video).

 

As for the Cameras, I can only go by the specs on the website:

 

CM-300 - the specs do not say if it is a True Day/Night with an Infrared Cut Filter, or just a Color IR camera, if it is the latter that would explain a poor image. As for the other specs on that camera it seems ok, though the pixel count is either incorrect or lower than the norm of 811x508.

 

SCC-B9371 Bullet - same thing, specs do not list an ICR therefor if going by those it is just a Color IR camera, there are better. Specs are typically okay otherwise. Once again though the effective pixels are lower than the normal 811x508.

 

Additionally to all that, you need an installer that knows what they are doing. I cant speak for whoever you have installing it as I am not there. But if it is not installed correctly then no matter what system you put in you may still be disappointed. Anybody can screw a camera up on the wall but if its not focused and adjusted properly then the video will look like crap.

 

BTW 15 feet is high and is going to loose you alot of FOV.

 

For license plates you will need a dedicated camera and it wont be cheap.

 

If you want to post pics, just put a space where the / goes and I will edit it for you.

[thewireguys 3]

 

If you want something of better quality and with the advantage of better evidence sharing as well as other features, you can upgrade the DVR to a PC based one, but dont use H264 as mentioned as most PC DVRs suck at their H264 codec, use MPEG4 or MJPEG if its available (eg. with Geo I use Mpeg4 for recording and H264 for remote video).

 

 

H.264 and IP/megapixel cameras works flawlessly ..... I never use a capture card with h.264 so I can't speak for them. I use IP H.264 encoders and they work fine.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Guest

[rory 0]

H.264 and IP/megapixel cameras works flawlessly ..... I never use a capture card with h.264 so I can't speak for them.

Mpeg4 and Geo works flawlessly

I cant speak for IP cameras but in the case of Geo the H264 and ASP are more compressed and hence lower quality.

Since storage is so cheap now it really doesnt matter anyway, I wish they still had Mjpeg on Geo, I can still use H264 for the Remote Video on slow connections.

[ak357 0]

OK gang, I am really in need of your help. First let me give you a little background of the system I have now and the issues I have with it. I aplogize in advance for the length of this post, but I'm in dire need of help and second opinions here.

 

Here is my 2 cents

I am like you had 16 ch DVR

which recently I start to convert to Hybrid system

basically I am using Existing Coax infrastructure for Ethernet

How ?

I have Network to Coax converter (not High Wire)

each set has 2 units

so, that what u do

one unit goes on analog cam end, second at DVR end

unplug cam and disconnect coax from DVR

connect each unit to each end of Coax

then connect to your local network switch

and u done

now u have IP cam go by Coax cable

it takes few min to do conversion

now I have few megapix cams and I love it

and management happy

for hybrid I am using Aver Card

I personally can't stand analog camera

specially for wide coverage

 

need more details PM me

[TVEngineer77 0]

Pics are at http://www.reitmeyer.cc/security

 

Have a look and tell me what you think.

 

I'm really looking into the Arecont cameras. They seem reasonably priced but I've heard that they might not be as good as others at low light conditions.

 

Anyone use AXIS cameras? Another person I've been talking to has recommended them as a middle-of-the-line between Arecont and IQEye, with IQEye being the best and most expensive.

[ak357 0]

Pics are at http://www.reitmeyer.cc/security

 

Have a look and tell me what you think.

 

I'm really looking into the Arecont cameras. They seem reasonably priced but I've heard that they might not be as good as others at low light conditions.

 

Anyone use AXIS cameras? Another person I've been talking to has recommended them as a middle-of-the-line between Arecont and IQEye, with IQEye being the best and most expensive.

 

Hate to say this

but pix are really bad (analog cam)

here is few pix Arecont for you to look

has been re-size for post

[rory 0]

something wrong with the DVR, seems a deinterlace setting or something.

Yeah right lets go right out and spend $2000 on a MegaPixel camera that cant see at night

 

oh yeah since im in a sharing mood .. $50 380TVL bullet ..

http://www.bahamassecurity.com/tmp/AMCAPlrg.bmp

ofcourse its crisp on the 13" TV looks like like a movie

(they come in higher res now for same price)

[ak357 0]

something wrong with the DVR, seems a deinterlace setting or something.

Yeah right lets go right out and spend $2000 on a MegaPixel camera that cant see at night

 

oh yeah since im in a sharing mood .. $50 380TVL bullet ..

http://www.bahamassecurity.com/tmp/AMCAPlrg.bmp

ofcourse its crisp on the 13" TV looks like like a movie

(they come in higher res now for same price)

 

do u mind show your best pix at night

preferably at least 30-50 feet away from camera and 30-40 wide

please

[rory 0]

do u mind show your best pix at night

preferably at least 30-50 feet away from camera and 30-40 wide

please

 

There is no point.

I have posted HIGH QUALITY images on this forum for years, and MANY Pitch Dark Day/Night shots, since 2003, I think that should suffice. I mean if you were interested in learning how to properly setup a Day Night CCTV system then I would, But I am certain you are not.

[ak357 0]

do u mind show your best pix at night

preferably at least 30-50 feet away from camera and 30-40 wide

please

 

There is no point.

I have posted HIGH QUALITY images on this forum for years, and MANY Pitch Dark Day/Night shots, since 2003, I think that should suffice. I mean if you were interested in learning how to properly setup a Day Night CCTV system then I would, But I am certain you are not.

 

Well if u call Jeep pix of "HIGH QUALITY"

then I rest my case

Can't see any number on front licence plate at lousy 10-12 feet

high quality shot ?

Edited October 3, 2009 by Guest

[thewireguys 3]

something wrong with the DVR, seems a deinterlace setting or something.

Yeah right lets go right out and spend $2000 on a MegaPixel camera that cant see at night

 

 

Arecont 3130/3135

 

Mobotix M12/D12

 

Both way less then $2000 and they can see at night. I would stay away from Axis if you need low light performance.

[rory 0]

 

Well if u call Jeep pix of "HIGH QUALITY"

then I rest my case

Can't see any number on front licence plate at lousy 10-12 feet

high quality shot ?

 

Quit it. i NEVER Claimed that a 380TVL $50 Bullet is high quality.

I wont be discussing this with you any further.

[rory 0]

Both way less then $2000 and they can see at night.

 

from images I have seen thus far I am not impressed with any MP camera's night vision. Sure they might have worked for those locations, but that does not mean they can "see" at night. Im also not impressed with MANY regular CCTV cameras and their night vision claims either.

[zmxtech 0]

Yep... they want big bucks but at night it all falls in a heap.

 

ps:

 

that yard should have an overveiw camera and one close to the gate to get plates and ID`s

[TVEngineer77 0]

Part of the issue is I don't know if the DVR is causing some of the quality issues as well, I have a hunch it is, but don't think it's solely to blame.

 

I was out with the installer and looked at a shot directly from a camera to a portable monitor, and it was decent, noticeably better than the recorded image.

 

While we're talking about it, what's a good DVR to go with? I already have a specific enclosure it needs to fit into so it needs to be a self-contained DVR or if it goes into a PC, it has to be small.

[Soundy 1]

Im also not impressed with MANY regular CCTV cameras and their night vision claims either.

 

Go FLIR

[ak357 0]

ps:

that yard should have an overveiw camera and one close to the gate to get plates and ID`s

 

This "yard" has lot more MP cameras