survtech 0 Posted October 31, 2009 Oh, come on! It's dirt cheap! According to one dealer, MSRP on the 16MP-PRO-C is only $15,722.36 Features ∙ 16 megapixel progressive scan CCD sensor ∙ Unsurpassed image quality ∙ 3 images per second at full resolution and 10 images per second at 4872 x 480 ∙ 65 dB true dynamic range ∙ 0.1 lux minimum illumination ∙ Lossless JPEG2000 compression ∙ 35 mm optical format ∙ Automatic exposure control and iris control ∙ Software focus control ∙ Compatible with a wide selection of Canon® EF mount lenses ∙ Power over Ethernet, 24 VAC or 12 VDC power input ∙ External I/O and RS-485 interface JPEG2000 - think of the bitrate Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bpzle 0 Posted October 31, 2009 haha, thats about what i expected but look at what you get! anyone nerdy enough to calculate how many analog cameras it would take to get the same picture? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewireguys 3 Posted October 31, 2009 Oh, come on! It's dirt cheap! According to one dealer, MSRP on the 16MP-PRO-C is only $15,722.36 Features ∙ 16 megapixel progressive scan CCD sensor ∙ Unsurpassed image quality ∙ 3 images per second at full resolution and 10 images per second at 4872 x 480 ∙ 65 dB true dynamic range ∙ 0.1 lux minimum illumination ∙ Lossless JPEG2000 compression ∙ 35 mm optical format ∙ Automatic exposure control and iris control ∙ Software focus control ∙ Compatible with a wide selection of Canon® EF mount lenses ∙ Power over Ethernet, 24 VAC or 12 VDC power input ∙ External I/O and RS-485 interface JPEG2000 - think of the bitrate And that is without the lens I was told there is a indoor stadium that uses 12 of the 16MP cameras for facial recognition in every seat in the building. Wounder how many analog cameras it would take to do that Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted October 31, 2009 CCTV_Suppliers I am gonna assume you don't know anything about Avigilon. dude..... I never said you don't know what your taking about . I was simply explaining if you want the best image quality on the market right now Avigilon is the only option and that their cameras only work with their software. When making comments like this, please make sure that you know what you are talking about and who you are referring your comments to! Just to keep everything on the same playing field, I have all these cameras and software from all the manufacturers, you name it, I have it - so that you understand that I have little more knowledge than you do. I have some cameras that you have not even heard of yet nor will have access to sell... some starting at $50K and higher... My questions were not which camera comes with the best image nor which software is better... rather trying to see if you and others are willing to share your charge amounts for for such applications. I thought I did make it clear, but I guess you missed it again... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted October 31, 2009 Oh, come on! It's dirt cheap! According to one dealer, MSRP on the 16MP-PRO-C is only $15,722.36 Features ∙ 16 megapixel progressive scan CCD sensor ∙ Unsurpassed image quality ∙ 3 images per second at full resolution and 10 images per second at 4872 x 480 ∙ 65 dB true dynamic range ∙ 0.1 lux minimum illumination ∙ Lossless JPEG2000 compression ∙ 35 mm optical format ∙ Automatic exposure control and iris control ∙ Software focus control ∙ Compatible with a wide selection of Canon® EF mount lenses ∙ Power over Ethernet, 24 VAC or 12 VDC power input ∙ External I/O and RS-485 interface JPEG2000 - think of the bitrate and yet it still cant see at night (0.1 lux is NOT good enough for most apps and yes I have seen their couple so called night shots which are loaded with outdoor lighting) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewireguys 3 Posted October 31, 2009 CCTV_Suppliers I am gonna assume you don't know anything about Avigilon. dude..... I never said you don't know what your taking about . I was simply explaining if you want the best image quality on the market right now Avigilon is the only option and that their cameras only work with their software. When making comments like this, please make sure that you know what you are talking about and who you are referring your comments to! Just to keep everything on the same playing field, I have all these cameras and software from all the manufacturers, you name it, I have it - so that you understand that I have little more knowledge than you do. I have some cameras that you have not even heard of yet nor will have access to sell... some starting at $50K and higher... My questions were not which camera comes with the best image nor which software is better... rather trying to see if you and others are willing to share your charge amounts for for such applications. I thought I did make it clear, but I guess you missed it again... Once again I was not insulting your intelligence but since you want to insult mine. Why don't you show us some proof? Since you have access to cameras that are $50K plus that no one can get there hands on . You said you had access to sub $100 IP cameras before and I asked you for a link and you never responded? You say you are working on open source software but you have yet to provide anything for us to test. Instead of continuing this pissing contest why don't you answer some of the questions in this thread or keep this on topic. "Enterprise level systems. What's your favorite?" Whats yours? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soundy 1 Posted October 31, 2009 Oh, come on! It's dirt cheap! According to one dealer, MSRP on the 16MP-PRO-C is only $15,722.36 Features ∙ 16 megapixel progressive scan CCD sensor ∙ Unsurpassed image quality ∙ 3 images per second at full resolution and 10 images per second at 4872 x 480 ∙ 65 dB true dynamic range ∙ 0.1 lux minimum illumination ∙ Lossless JPEG2000 compression ∙ 35 mm optical format ∙ Automatic exposure control and iris control ∙ Software focus control ∙ Compatible with a wide selection of Canon® EF mount lenses ∙ Power over Ethernet, 24 VAC or 12 VDC power input ∙ External I/O and RS-485 interface JPEG2000 - think of the bitrate and yet it still cant see at night (0.1 lux is NOT good enough for most apps and yes I have seen their couple so called night shots which are loaded with outdoor lighting) Ah, but then the question of the lens really comes into play. Remember, where your average CCTV lens has a maximum aperture anywhere from f/1.2 to f/1.8, f/2 is considered VERY fast for most EF-mount lenses, especially with varifocals (talking in the upper-mid range, four-digit-pricetag range), and f/2.8 to f/4 is far more common. The Sigma 300-600mm beast seen in the "Megapixel images" thread is f/5.6 *at best*, and with the 2x converter on the rig shown there, it won't open beyond f/11. In a nutshell, unless you're spending as much on the lens as you are the camera, most of the lenses you're putting on the Avigilon are at least two stops slower - or one-quarter the light transmission - than typical "low-end" megapixel C/CS-mount lenses. At f/11, that's a full SIX stops slower than f/2... or 1/64 the amount of light. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted October 31, 2009 Once again I was not insulting your intelligence but since you want to insult mine. Why don't you show us some proof? Since you have access to cameras that are $50K plus that no one can get there hands on . You said you had access to sub $100 IP cameras before and I asked you for a link and you never responded? You say you are working on open source software but you have yet to provide anything for us to test. Instead of continuing this pissing contest why don't you answer some of the questions in this thread or keep this on topic. "Enterprise level systems. What's your favorite?" Whats yours? Man, you are a firecracker aren't you? This shows that you are new in this industry. All I asked is a question and I see that you want to take this matter to a different direction... Good things will follow sooner than later my friend... I will not share anything here as this thread is not addressing what you ask... Do you really want a pissing contest man? I already know what your limitations are, so do not go there. My intention was to ask few simple questions about pricing for so called "Enterprise level systems" and if you want to take this to somewhere else, then bring it on... Any IP software that charges more than a $1 is not a good solution for most. May be good for selected few which accounts for top 1%, how about the ordinary "Joe". I know you will disagree with this, as you do not know any better... as your calcs on Exacq shown in one of the other threads... Again, just to keep this in perspective, all I am asking for prices for these Enterprises Solutions to substantiate not if they work, rather how many people actually are using and average pricing in the market.. I know what the prices are, do you besides Exacq? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted October 31, 2009 Ah, but then the question of the lens really comes into play. Remember, where your average CCTV lens has a maximum aperture anywhere from f/1.2 to f/1.8, f/2 is considered VERY fast for most EF-mount lenses, especially with varifocals (talking in the upper-mid range, four-digit-pricetag range), and f/2.8 to f/4 is far more common. The Sigma 300-600mm beast seen in the "Megapixel images" thread is f/5.6 *at best*, and with the 2x converter on the rig shown there, it won't open beyond f/11. In a nutshell, unless you're spending as much on the lens as you are the camera, most of the lenses you're putting on the Avigilon are at least two stops slower - or one-quarter the light transmission - than typical "low-end" megapixel C/CS-mount lenses. At f/11, that's a full SIX stops slower than f/2... or 1/64 the amount of light. Very good observation... What is the key on this is how you describe - as unless someone is spending as much on the lens as for the camera, the outcome will never be optimized. Very few manufacturers actually may even support this high end MP cameras... just makes no economical sense to produce them, since usage will be bare minimal... in some cases these lenses actually costs twice as much as the camera itself... We have been toying around with very high end IP cameras from DALSA with extremely high res (higher than 16M) and lenses at the same level... Picture quality is out of this world and ability to zoom multiple time and almost no pixelization is the gravy... Not a technology for mainstream, but has its potential military and government uses.. They are already the main supplier for space exploration projects... They tried in movie industry (the last 007 (Quantum of Solace) movie was shot with their technology cameras), but decided to pull back due to limitations on how many of these cameras can they sell... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted November 1, 2009 Ah, but then the question of the lens really comes into play. I based my reply on the manufacturer specs: 0.1 lux minimum illumination Lens f stops obviously effect ALL cameras but in this case I am highlighting that the manufacturers spec of 0.1 lux, regardless of what lens it has, is not good enough for a day night application in "most" cases. I really dont need to know what lenses are available for that camera either, as I would never buy a $15,000 camera. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewireguys 3 Posted November 1, 2009 Once again I was not insulting your intelligence but since you want to insult mine. Why don't you show us some proof? Since you have access to cameras that are $50K plus that no one can get there hands on . You said you had access to sub $100 IP cameras before and I asked you for a link and you never responded? You say you are working on open source software but you have yet to provide anything for us to test. Instead of continuing this pissing contest why don't you answer some of the questions in this thread or keep this on topic. "Enterprise level systems. What's your favorite?" Whats yours? Man, you are a firecracker aren't you? This shows that you are new in this industry. All I asked is a question and I see that you want to take this matter to a different direction... Good things will follow sooner than later my friend... I will not share anything here as this thread is not addressing what you ask... Do you really want a pissing contest man? I already know what your limitations are, so do not go there. My intention was to ask few simple questions about pricing for so called "Enterprise level systems" and if you want to take this to somewhere else, then bring it on... Any IP software that charges more than a $1 is not a good solution for most. May be good for selected few which accounts for top 1%, how about the ordinary "Joe". I know you will disagree with this, as you do not know any better... as your calcs on Exacq shown in one of the other threads... Again, just to keep this in perspective, all I am asking for prices for these Enterprises Solutions to substantiate not if they work, rather how many people actually are using and average pricing in the market.. I know what the prices are, do you besides Exacq? I defending myself from someone who decided to attack me for no reason. There are thousands of NVR software products on the market. I have used, installed and tested many of them. I like Exacq because it works, it is at a good price point and my customers like it. You keep talking about IP software that is free or less then a $1. When you have it available to test myself and many people on this forum would be happy to try it. But right now their are not many free software NVR software solutions on the market and most of them are very limited in there capability or only support cameras from one manufacture. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted November 1, 2009 I defending myself from someone who decided to attack me for no reason. Who actually attacked you my friend? Here is your post reply against me: CCTV_Suppliers I am gonna assume you don't know anything about Avigilon. I wander how you "assumed" this when my question was very specific on pricing of Enterprise Solutions?? Looks to me that you rather not read posts and reply on what you assume it states... Lets see now, who is attacking who again? Man, get your story straight and do not create something that is not there nor "assume" on anything that is above your level of comprehension... I guess if you do not want to take the challenge on pricing of your software solutions, then say you do not want to or can not do it. Do not turn this thread to gain some personal gratification on your level of expertise... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted November 1, 2009 Ah, but then the question of the lens really comes into play. I based my reply on the manufacturer specs: 0.1 lux minimum illumination Lens f stops obviously effect ALL cameras but in this case I am highlighting that the manufacturers spec of 0.1 lux, regardless of what lens it has, is not good enough for a day night application in "most" cases. I really dont need to know what lenses are available for that camera either, as I would never buy a $15,000 camera. If I did not know Rory, then I would have said "Great Job" in finding this flaw, but I do not expect anything less from him anyway - You are the best man.. and I mean it! Interestingly enough that spec alone will kill any deal that may be cooking at the moment... How can someone pay this type of pricing (not including similar level of lens pricing or higher) and then have this type of lux level... Wow... I will add one more: - Lossless JPEG2000 compression Are you kidding me?? Most of the known systems are spitting out H.264 compression and this camera at that price is pushing antiquated compression?? I did not have a chance to see who the manufacturer is or the product code... can anyone please provide this info if available? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewireguys 3 Posted November 1, 2009 I defending myself from someone who decided to attack me for no reason. Who actually attacked you my friend? Here is your post reply against me: CCTV_Suppliers I am gonna assume you don't know anything about Avigilon. I wander how you "assumed" this when my question was very specific on pricing of Enterprise Solutions?? Looks to me that you rather not read posts and reply on what you assume it states... Lets see now, who is attacking who again? Man, get your story straight and do not create something that is not there nor "assume" on anything that is above your level of comprehension... I guess if you do not want to take the challenge on pricing of your software solutions, then say you do not want to or can not do it. Do not turn this thread to gain some personal gratification on your level of expertise... I was responding to your comment. Someone calls a software Lamborghini and an expensive brand to compare top notch software product - I take it such statement quantifies price and not a quality, as Lamborghini is not a quality driven product. You think that was an attack? Sorry I didn't know you knew anything about Avigilon......... relax this is only the internet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted November 1, 2009 If I did not know Rory, then I would have said "Great Job" in finding this flaw, but I do not expect anything less from him anyway - You are the best man.. and I mean it! Interestingly enough that spec alone will kill any deal that may be cooking at the moment... How can someone pay this type of pricing (not including similar level of lens pricing or higher) and then have this type of lux level... Wow... I will add one more: - Lossless JPEG2000 compression Are you kidding me?? Most of the known systems are spitting out H.264 compression and this camera at that price is pushing antiquated compression?? I did not have a chance to see who the manufacturer is or the product code... can anyone please provide this info if available? Dont get me wrong, its a impressive camera, but just wont cut it for most of my day night apps. I wish it did so I could go and tell all my clients to switch to it right away, I would love to start with the night club car park, think he will go from a $80 camera to a $15,000 one? Its the 16MP camera from Avigilon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted November 1, 2009 Rory, as I said, I did not read who the manufacturer was, so thanks for the reply... Very impressive specs indeed, but those two items in the spec are deal breaker for me... I do not think 16MP camera would come down to $80 range - I will tell you though that 2MP cameras are coming down below $250 range and lower in some cases... and they all spit out H2.64 compressed video.. and it is not an Arecont camera either... I will give maximum six months for pricing on MP cameras to stabilize under $200... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted November 1, 2009 thewireguys, I am very relaxed and extremely calm... you or anybody can not give me any reason to get upset about anything... After all, I thought we are sharing ideas here.. Next time please do not assume on anything - you do not know who your audiences are - some may not reply and some will. If someone asks a question (a question that had nothing to do with any specific brand for that matter), it does not quantify that they do not know anything about it. Rather, they may be testing you and others to learn everyone elses opinions... If my type of questions offend you, then you do not have to respond. I really care less about attitudes created from nothing - in my case asking a simple question.. If you do not want to share your estimated costs for such Enterprise Software solutions, then don't... but do not take a different stand that has nothing to do with the question. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
megapixel man 0 Posted November 1, 2009 (edited) haha, thats about what i expected but look at what you get! anyone nerdy enough to calculate how many analog cameras it would take to get the same picture? 40 odd+ but you still wont be able digitally zoom into the recorded image like you can with the one 16MP. Then you have to factor in the installation and supporting infrastructure for all the analog cams required to cover the same area. The 16MP Cam is a case of horses for courses. Large open space area monitoring. Edited November 1, 2009 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted November 1, 2009 50 but you still wont be able digitally zoom into the recorded image like you can with the one 16MP. you can digitally zoom into any recorded image. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
megapixel man 0 Posted November 1, 2009 50 but you still wont be able digitally zoom into the recorded image like you can with the one 16MP. you can digitally zoom into any recorded image. Yes Rory, you can but the resolution will just not be there, you cant argue with physics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
megapixel man 0 Posted November 1, 2009 Oh, come on! It's dirt cheap! According to one dealer, MSRP on the 16MP-PRO-C is only $15,722.36 Features ∙ 16 megapixel progressive scan CCD sensor ∙ Unsurpassed image quality ∙ 3 images per second at full resolution and 10 images per second at 4872 x 480 ∙ 65 dB true dynamic range ∙ 0.1 lux minimum illumination ∙ Lossless JPEG2000 compression ∙ 35 mm optical format ∙ Automatic exposure control and iris control ∙ Software focus control ∙ Compatible with a wide selection of Canon® EF mount lenses ∙ Power over Ethernet, 24 VAC or 12 VDC power input ∙ External I/O and RS-485 interface JPEG2000 - think of the bitrate and yet it still cant see at night (0.1 lux is NOT good enough for most apps and yes I have seen their couple so called night shots which are loaded with outdoor lighting) 16MP PRO Monochrome. ∙ 16 megapixel progressive scan CCD sensor ∙ Unsurpassed image quality ∙ 3 images per second at full resolution and 10 images per second at 4872 x 480 ∙ 65 dB true dynamic range ∙ 0.01 lux minimum illumination ∙ Lossless JPEG2000 compression ∙ 35 mm optical format ∙ Automatic exposure control and iris control ∙ Software focus control ∙ Compatible with a wide selection of Canon® EF mount lenses ∙ Power over Ethernet, 24 VAC or 12 VDC power input ∙ External I/O and RS-485 interface Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewireguys 3 Posted November 1, 2009 thewireguys, I am very relaxed and extremely calm... you or anybody can not give me any reason to get upset about anything... After all, I thought we are sharing ideas here.. Next time please do not assume on anything - you do not know who your audiences are - some may not reply and some will. If someone asks a question (a question that had nothing to do with any specific brand for that matter), it does not quantify that they do not know anything about it. Rather, they may be testing you and others to learn everyone elses opinions... If my type of questions offend you, then you do not have to respond. I really care less about attitudes created from nothing - in my case asking a simple question.. If you do not want to share your estimated costs for such Enterprise Software solutions, then don't... but do not take a different stand that has nothing to do with the question. Your questions do not offend me but your unprovoked attack did. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted November 1, 2009 16MP PRO Monochrome. ∙ 16 megapixel progressive scan CCD sensor ∙ Unsurpassed image quality ∙ 3 images per second at full resolution and 10 images per second at 4872 x 480 ∙ 65 dB true dynamic range ∙ 0.01 lux minimum illumination ∙ Lossless JPEG2000 compression ∙ 35 mm optical format ∙ Automatic exposure control and iris control ∙ Software focus control ∙ Compatible with a wide selection of Canon® EF mount lenses ∙ Power over Ethernet, 24 VAC or 12 VDC power input ∙ External I/O and RS-485 interface Yes but that is not the camera we were discussing, that is a Black and White camera. However, I am glad they do have one available and thank you for posting the info .. now I go ask my client to switch out that $80 BW bullet Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted November 1, 2009 50 but you still wont be able digitally zoom into the recorded image like you can with the one 16MP. you can digitally zoom into any recorded image. Yes Rory, you can but the resolution will just not be there, you cant argue with physics. agreed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
megapixel man 0 Posted November 1, 2009 Oh, come on! It's dirt cheap! According to one dealer, MSRP on the 16MP-PRO-C is only $15,722.36 Features ∙ 16 megapixel progressive scan CCD sensor ∙ Unsurpassed image quality ∙ 3 images per second at full resolution and 10 images per second at 4872 x 480 ∙ 65 dB true dynamic range ∙ 0.1 lux minimum illumination ∙ Lossless JPEG2000 compression ∙ 35 mm optical format ∙ Automatic exposure control and iris control ∙ Software focus control ∙ Compatible with a wide selection of Canon® EF mount lenses ∙ Power over Ethernet, 24 VAC or 12 VDC power input ∙ External I/O and RS-485 interface JPEG2000 - think of the bitrate 27.1Mbits at default quality level, not so shocking eh! Consider the advantages of JPEG2000 with HDSM, while the above is the Bit Rate from Camera to NVR the Bit rates from NVR to Client are far less than any other solution I know of. JPEG2000 is a constant bit rate from Camera to NVR, while other compression codecs are variable based on the complexity of changes within the scene, so if you doing network loading calculations on a variable bit rate what figure do you use for the calc? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
