Enclosure / Camera for -40 Celsius (-40 F) temperature

[melisandeneowald 0]

Hi ,

 

I'm looking for a BNC camera OR enclosure+camera good for Canada winter temperatures under -35 Celsius (-31 F). If considering the wind chill factor, it can get under -40C sometimes (It's freezing! ). In the summer we get max of plus 33 Celsius (92 F). It would also need to stay put in windy conditions.

 

The camera will be located outside a small convenience store to monitor the entrance and the parking lot (About 5 parking places) in front of it. It would be great if it could take good images in the dark also. The networkable DVR we have can record a max of 720x480 Pixels (Well the manual says 720x240 but I don't think it's possible, right?). The total fps is 120fps.

Manual : alturl dot com/f25n

 

Do you guys already have a time tested solution for this application?

[alpine0000 0]

I'm looking for a BNC camera OR enclosure+camera good for Canada winter temperatures under -35 Celsius (-31 F). If considering the wind chill factor, it can get under -40C sometimes

 

Wind chill is the apparent temperature felt on exposed skin due to wind. It has no affect on inanimate objects other than to help get them to the actual ambient temperature faster. Wind chill is basically how cold it FEELS to humans, not how cold it actually is.

 

Specifically, the wind chill factor:

-Calculates wind speed at an average height of five feet (typical height of an adult human face)

-Is based on a human face model

-Uses a consistent standard for skin tissue resistance

-Assumes no impact from the sun

 

If considering the wind chill factor, it can get under -40C sometimes

No it cant. At least not because of windchill. If its -35, and with windchill it feels like -40, the temperature is still -35. It doesn't change the temperature whatsoever. Especially for a camera in an enclosure.

 

 

(Well the manual says 720x240 but I don't think it's possible, right?)

 

Yes, it is. Although the image would still appear to have the same dimensions as a 720x480, you'd just lose every other vertical line, so your image would not be as high quality.

 

The camera will be located outside a small convenience store to monitor the entrance and the parking lot (About 5 parking places) in front of it. It would be great if it could take good images in the dark also.

 

Do you guys already have a time tested solution for this application?

 

I think any decent box camera in an enclosure with a heater/blower will work just fine. Get a day/night camera with a good lens if you want quality night shots. You could also choose to add a seperate IR illuminator if you wish.

 

Check out some panasonic, pelco, bosch, sanyo, etc Day/Night box cameras. Choose the one that fits your budget and application the best, then throw it in your choice of enclosure with a heater/blower. If a brand name is too expensive, there are also some decent inexpensive box cameras that would work well too.

[melisandeneowald 0]

Thanks for the clarifications and the good advices Alpine .

 

I have some other questions that, I guess, are pretty much basic knowledge in the CCTV field (Me: Newbie) :

 

-Can a Higher resolution camera work on a DVR that records at a lower resolution?

-If the enclosure specifies it's good down to -25 should I use it for -33 application?

-Is a focal length of 4 to 9 mm good to watch a small parking lot (5 cars) and the entrance of a small convenience store?

-Please, would it be possible to give one or two examples of a camera with a good quality/price for a minus 35C winter application : Good day/night images; Durability; Good price.

[blake 0]

I think you'll be better off with two box cameras with blower/heated enclosures.One specifically to cover the parking spaces and another just for the entrance.That enables you to set and focus each camera for it's specific task.This is the enclosure http://www.shoreviewsecurityusa.com/Outdoor_Back_Open_Camera_Housing_with_Heat_and_Fan_p/svdvc-hhf.htm

How much light does the front of your store have.To get great views at night,it takes good cameras and good lighting.What is your camera budget?

[alpine0000 0]

-Can a Higher resolution camera work on a DVR that records at a lower resolution?

Sure it will! But when you go back to watch the recorded video, you will be watching it in whatever quality the DVR records it in. So if you have a cheap DVR, it may not look as good as it *could* look with a better DVR.

 

-If the enclosure specifies it's good down to -25 should I use it for -33 application?

Meh, you may be fine, but I cant guarantee that. Instead, I would just find an enclosure with a heater that is rated for your application

 

-Is a focal length of 4 to 9 mm good to watch a small parking lot (5 cars) and the entrance of a small convenience store?

4-9mm is pretty much the default standard spec for lenses. It is a good all-around lens that fits most applications. However, it is impossible to tell you whether or not it will work "well" for you unless we know how far away the camera will be from the area you want to watch, and also how wide you want your field of view. Do you want a general overview of everything just to be able to tell if there are cars in the lot? If so, that should work, unless your camera is mounted far away.

 

However, if you want the lens to be zoomed in on the entrance enough to capture license plates, and/or your camera is mounted farther away from the action, then you may want a longer lens... Say somewhere between 10-25mm? It just all depends on what you want to see, how close the camera is, and how zoomed in youd like to be.

 

-Please, would it be possible to give one or two examples of a camera with a good quality/price for a minus 35C winter application

I dont think you need to look so much at the box cameras rating as you do at the enclosures rating. The box camera wont be rated for a very low temperature -- thats what the heated enclosure is for.

 

Here is the box camera I would get:

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=365995&catGroupId=14458&surfModel=WV-CP504

 

It is an amazing camera, but you also pay for it, too. ($400-500 depending on where you buy it. You also need to buy the lens seperately)

 

You could find decent box cameras for half that price though, if that is out of your budget.

 

I got this camera for ~$250 last year, and the image quality is impressive:

http://surveillanceonline.com/pdfs/surveillance/cameras/IPX-520-DN.pdf

 

Whatever you do, I would make sure that your camera has WDR and an IR cut filter.

[3RDIGLBL 0]

melisandeneowald

 

I live in Canada and do business in the U.S.. It hit -48F here last winter and not one camera failed. All my PTZ's, box cams in a $35 heater/blower housings, even low end $50 bullet cams all ran great. Me on the other hand don't operate too well when it is that cold

 

Typically the electronics inside the camera help in keeping the camera warm enough to function. The area where you would most likely run into an issue is if you lost power when it was that cold and you tried to get the camera going again. It may not come back up until spring Seriously though when I first started this business I wondered the same as you. Now that I've gone through a few winters it does not concern me as much anymore.

[melisandeneowald 0]

First of all, sorry for the long delay. I needed time to digest all the new information .

 

Hey Alpine, thanks very much for all the sound and practical advices. Also, the cameras you proposed are really good examples of what to look for in a good quality camera. The second one would be more in my budget and it looks like it has a lot of features for the price. I didn't know about Wide Dynamic Range (WDR) and IR cut filter before, and now I think I know that those camera are more expensive for a good reason.

 

Hi 3RDIGLBL, I really appreciate the input of a guy actually living in the sub -40s.

 

The area where you would most likely run into an issue is if you lost power when it was that cold and you tried to get the camera going again.

 

Here (in the Maritimes (East coast of Canada)) we sometimes get -25C (-13F) three days in a row. A few days during the winter we get -35C (-31F). It could probably go down to -40C also. If the electricity goes off for 4 hours during this time, the camera and heater will stop :

-Will the camera turn back on after the electricity comes back?

-Will it harm the camera in any ways?

-Will it shorten the life of the camera significantly?

 

I mean, everywhere I go, I observe the jobs that others did in the area. Everywhere I see a camera outside, it's in an enclosure. Do they have to replace their camera every five years? Or is it really working?

 

I've found a model that can withstand -60C to +60C (-76F to +140F) : X14N Series Extreme Environment Integrated Day/Night Camera. It's insulated : No heater or blower needed. It has IR illumination. Originally the brand was "Extreme CCTV". Bosh acquired them. Look : alturl dot com/d5zp

 

I like everything about this camera except the price. But if my client doesn't have to replace the camera every two years, it's a cheap camera in my book.

[3RDIGLBL 0]

Sorry for not replying. I've been traveling for a week and have not logged on the forum during that time.

 

All my installs use enclosures with the exception of a few bullet cams. I have some really cheap bullet cams that operated just fine in the cold. I have not had a power loss, yet, long enough to cause a camera failure because it was too cold. But it really will depend on the camera. What happens is it's the electronics that get too cold to start. The electrical characteristics in the components change when they are subjected to really cold environments. Certain components depend on timing and voltage levels in order to operate properly so when it is really cold the dynamics change.

 

With that being said the camera will turn on when it reaches a certain temperature governed by the design of the camera. Manufacturers know this but because of tolerance levels most manufactures play it safe with the low temp rating even though the camera will work just fine lower. I can't comment specifically around the life time effects on the camera because I think it really depends on the manufacturer.

 

As you are seeing now. If you want a dedicated camera that is speced to go down to the extreme temperatures you are looking for then you will pay for it. Me on the other hand learned through trying it out. I put cameras on the outside of my office and I keep swapping them out to test each of there tolerance levels. What I found is most will run just fine at colder temps than what they are speced to.

 

Good Luck.

[melisandeneowald 0]

Me on the other hand learned through trying it out. I put cameras on the outside of my office and I keep swapping them out to test each of there tolerance levels. What I found is most will run just fine at colder temps than what they are speced to.

 

OK, I see what you're saying. Thanks for sharing your experiments.

 

So if I choose an outdoor enclosure, is it better to choose one with integrated IR illumination? Or will a good camera work good in the dark with low light?

 

What do you guys think of the UHO Series Outdoor Camera Housing from Bosh? They come with a heater, blower, a window defroster and self cleaning glass. Here : alturl dot com/rqpj

They cost about 175$ and are good for -40C for fixed lenses.

[alpine0000 0]

So if I choose an outdoor enclosure, is it better to choose one with integrated IR illumination? Or will a good camera work good in the dark with low light?

 

I would buy the best camera you can afford. Put it in an enclosure and, if you dont have some already, install some outdoor visible lighting. If you find that you still cant see anything in the dark, then install an external IR illuminator a few feet away from the camera.

 

I would personally stay away from integrated IR for outdoor cams because insects can see IR light, and it attracts them. Before you know it, you have cobwebs. Not that this would be a problem in -35 degree weather, but when it warms up it will be...

 

Another reason to stay away from integrated IR is glare back into the lens. You may or may not have this issue, depending on your equipment.

[melisandeneowald 0]

I would personally stay away from integrated IR for outdoor cams because insects can see IR light, and it attracts them. Before you know it, you have cobwebs.

 

Oh! I didn't see that one coming. You're right! That's a good reason to not use IR right on the camera.

 

What do you think about the enclosure's window defroster? Not very common on enclosures uh? Does it fix a fogging problem that other enclosures have?

[melisandeneowald 0]

I've talked to a camera distributor, and he said that there's no real problem with insects and spiders...

 

Is it really something to worry about?

[melisandeneowald 0]

What'you guys think about those two outdoor cameras for the sub -30s?

Cam 1

Cam 2

They have no heaters, but they look solid. Plus they are affordable.

[alpine0000 0]

I've talked to a camera distributor, and he said that there's no real problem with insects and spiders...

 

We are talking about an onboard IR camera, right? If so, how can he possibly make such a broad statement like that? I mean, it all depends on where the camera is mounted and what region you live in. I guess if you live in the North Pole, it wouldnt be a problem. If you live anywhere near me, it definitely can be.

 

 

Is it really something to worry about?

 

It can be, but not always. There are variables here. For example, if the camera is mounted at the top of a 50 foot pole you will have less of an insect problem than if the camera is mounted under the eave of your roof.

[alpine0000 0]

What'you guys think about those two outdoor cameras for the sub -30s?

Cam 1

Cam 2

They have no heaters, but they look solid. Plus they are affordable.

 

they seem kind of expensive for what they are: run-of-the-mill IR bullet cams. but they will probably def give you an acceptable picture.

 

you could probably find another IR bullet cam that would give you the exact same picture quality for $100 less.

[WRS_Mark 0]

I was running a mix of bullet and dome cams last winter at my home in Sunny-But-Frozen Alberta. On the coldest morning it got to -46c (ambient air temperature) and the cameras functioned perfectly. HOWEVER -and this is critical - if your camera loses power during such a cold snap for a while and you start them up while the temperature is so cold you may damage them to some extent. A customer of mine lost two of them to the cold last winter after they had been left without power for a couple of days and decided to fire them up while the temperature was around -30c. I don't know if it was the camera sitting in the cold or starting it back up again at such a low temp that caused the damage, but the moral of the story is invest in a UPS for those cameras alone and get another one for the DVR just to ensure the chip sets stay warm.