Designing an IP CCTV system with 20-30 cameras

[koolmer 0]

Hi All,

 

I am in the very early planning phase of a fully digital CCTV system. In fact I have not even seen the building yet. This would be my first fully digital system and I have some questions. The system will probably have between 20 - 30 cameras. Most cameras would be outside showing surroundings and entrances. The system will have a control room, which is manned 24/7, so detection is more important than getting evidence. Quality is just as important as the price. Here my questions:

 

1. What Software should I use for displaying and recording the cameras? I will have at least 4 wide screen displays for live viewing. Has anyone here tried Exacq?

 

2. What camera brand can you recommend? What is the cost for standard/megapixel resolution?

 

3. What routers should I use? Can I use standard Gigabit routers or are there special products for the CCTV market?

 

Thats all I can think of right now.

 

koolmer

[thewireguys 3]

Exacq works very well with muilt-monitor setups. I am a big fan of there NVR software.

 

For cameras I recommend Axis Acti or Arecont but you can look at the supported camera list on Exacq's site for the full list they support.

 

As for your switch selection ( I am assuming you meant switch not router) any of the 48 port higher end switches from Netgear, D-link will work you can also go the Cisco route. Most important is to make sure you have enough POE power for your camera load.

[gfdcxgfd 0]

Whats your budget?

[koolmer 0]

Whats your budget?

 

Actually I don't have a budget yet At a certain point the owner is going to ask me how much the estimated cost is and this is also something I have to find out now. This doesn't mean I can just name a price and will get the money - it has to be realistic.

 

I think I will have 2-3 weeks until I get that question.

 

@ thewireguy

 

Yes I meant switch. Okay so there is no specific CCTV switch or something. I will go for one of the standard brands. How do I know how much POE a switch can deliver?

[crirvine 0]

Do you anything about networks? Most all top line IP cameras will run on POE switches. Build your own network do not use the customers network. No home routers will not handle the data traffic that 30 IP cameras use managed POE switches so you can see the loads at 50 IP cameras we over built the server 2 nics 16 gig ram 20 tb storage 6 port 1gig small backbone router cat 6 wire 2 52 inch video walls 3 viewing stations. IP solutions are not for beginners go to IP schools learn networking. 5 good IP cameras will swamp home routers and will not pass all the video.

THIS WILL NOT BE A CHEAP SYSTEM.

[thewireguys 3]

Do you anything about networks? Most all top line IP cameras will run on POE switches. Build your own network do not use the customers network. No home routers will not handle the data traffic that 30 IP cameras use managed POE switches so you can see the loads at 50 IP cameras we over built the server 2 nics 16 gig ram 20 tb storage 6 port 1gig small backbone router cat 6 wire 2 52 inch video walls 3 viewing stations. IP solutions are not for beginners go to IP schools learn networking. 5 good IP cameras will swamp home routers and will not pass all the video.

THIS WILL NOT BE A CHEAP SYSTEM.

 

What NVR software did you use?

[thewireguys 3]

You can use Axis's design tool to get an idea about the bandwidth IP cameras will use.

 

http://www.axis.com/products/video/design_tool/calculator.htm

 

Also Crirvine is correct IP cctv is a completely different animal then cctv. I do not recommend a 30 camera install for your first job.

[crirvine 0]

ONSSI NETDVMS server software as this job will grow 50 or more cameras in the next exspansion. We can run another server without buying a new server key just camera keys. This is why the over build with all the high end hardware cat 6 router managed POE's.

[koolmer 0]

Do you anything about networks? Most all top line IP cameras will run on POE switches. Build your own network do not use the customers network. No home routers will not handle the data traffic that 30 IP cameras use managed POE switches so you can see the loads at 50 IP cameras we over built the server 2 nics 16 gig ram 20 tb storage 6 port 1gig small backbone router cat 6 wire 2 52 inch video walls 3 viewing stations. IP solutions are not for beginners go to IP schools learn networking. 5 good IP cameras will swamp home routers and will not pass all the video.

THIS WILL NOT BE A CHEAP SYSTEM.

 

Well I have setup Networks for office use and sometimes for LAN parties when I was 15 , but no network of this size and not for IP cameras. I do believe that I have the skill to get the Network to work, but I need to know which components to use - there will be a separate Network for the cameras of course. Most cameras are going to be normal D1 resolution and there will be a few Megapixel cams (4-6). I think a Gigabit Network with Cat6 should do the Job, but correct me if I am wrong.

 

The cameras will be displayed on two big LCD screens between 26-32". I would like to use Exacq, as their videos have impressed me.

 

I actually have only seen one complete IP CCTV system so far in a building nearby and this has really left a bad imression. The system consists of 16 cameras recorded by a server and displayed on a client machine. Cameras were run over the same Network as all computers of the place. What was so bad about it was the FPS and the quality of moving objects. Somebody who would just walk by a camera could impossibly be recognized. Everything that moved was extremely blurry, while still images were really clear. A 5MP camera in the outside was only giving a slide show with max 2 FPS. Every analogue system that I have installed was better than that!

[thewireguys 3]

Do you anything about networks? Most all top line IP cameras will run on POE switches. Build your own network do not use the customers network. No home routers will not handle the data traffic that 30 IP cameras use managed POE switches so you can see the loads at 50 IP cameras we over built the server 2 nics 16 gig ram 20 tb storage 6 port 1gig small backbone router cat 6 wire 2 52 inch video walls 3 viewing stations. IP solutions are not for beginners go to IP schools learn networking. 5 good IP cameras will swamp home routers and will not pass all the video.

THIS WILL NOT BE A CHEAP SYSTEM.

 

Well I have setup Networks for office use and sometimes for LAN parties when I was 15 , but no network of this size and not for IP cameras. I do believe that I have the skill to get the Network to work, but I need to know which components to use - there will be a separate Network for the cameras of course. Most cameras are going to be normal D1 resolution and there will be a few Megapixel cams (4-6). I think a Gigabit Network with Cat6 should do the Job, but correct me if I am wrong.

 

The cameras will be displayed on two big LCD screens between 26-32". I would like to use Exacq, as their videos have impressed me.

 

I actually have only seen one complete IP CCTV system so far in a building nearby and this has really left a bad imression. The system consists of 16 cameras recorded by a server and displayed on a client machine. Cameras were run over the same Network as all computers of the place. What was so bad about it was the FPS and the quality of moving objects. Somebody who would just walk by a camera could impossibly be recognized. Everything that moved was extremely blurry, while still images were really clear. A 5MP camera in the outside was only giving a slide show with max 2 FPS. Every analogue system that I have installed was better than that!

 

With a 5MP normally you will not need more then 2-3 FPS if your covering large areas. You can if you want to but you will eat up a lot of storage and bandwidth. What cameras do you plain on using.

[koolmer 0]

With a 5MP normally you will not need more then 2-3 FPS if your covering large areas. You can if you want to but you will eat up a lot of storage and bandwidth. What cameras do you plain on using.

 

I have been looking on the Website of Exacq. They give a nice big list of supported cameras. I want to avoid any blur on moving objects, but don't know what to look for exactly. I understand that CCDs are better than CMOS, but I don't know why exactly. Better low light performance?

 

For MP cameras I like Arecont, but they have only CMOS. For the rest I don't know yet.

[griffonsystems 0]

really do a lot of research into the back end of a system like this.. that will make or break a project like this..how many people will be accessing the live feeds of the camera, how many will be doing queries into stored video, how many live display monitors do they want as part of the system, etc. better to over deliver on back end hardware and network infrastructure (quad core servers, GB poe managed switches -- most ip cameras are 100 Mbps but make sure you have gig uplinks to the storage servers/application server if you're going with a nvr/vms centralized solution and even the viewing stations should be on gig not 100)

[thewireguys 3]

With a 5MP normally you will not need more then 2-3 FPS if your covering large areas. You can if you want to but you will eat up a lot of storage and bandwidth. What cameras do you plain on using.

 

I have been looking on the Website of Exacq. They give a nice big list of supported cameras. I want to avoid any blur on moving objects, but don't know what to look for exactly. I understand that CCDs are better than CMOS, but I don't know why exactly. Better low light performance?

 

For MP cameras I like Arecont, but they have only CMOS. For the rest I don't know yet.

 

CMOS vs CCD ...... Well I have used all CMOS except for Basler and I know Arecont, Mobotix and Axis have better images but to each is own. I would strongly recommend you do alot of research before to tackle a ip system this size.

[3RDIGLBL 0]

For MP cameras I like Arecont, but they have only CMOS. For the rest I don't know yet.

 

You will get less blooming with a CMOS sensor than CCD. CMOS has come a long way which why you see all these high end guys using them. Do some research between the two sensor types and you will be more informed as too why they are chosen.....another factor is they do not require as much power hense a better choice for POE applications.

 

I love Arecont, although due to cost limitations for my latest project I went with 15 ACTi cams. All CMOS.

[robert 0]

I want to avoid any blur on moving objects, but don't know what to look for exactly. I understand that CCDs are better than CMOS, but I don't know why exactly. Better low light performance?

 

For MP cameras I like Arecont, but they have only CMOS. For the rest I don't know yet.

 

CMOS does motion blur, keep that in mind. Even if you have enough light, you should expect some motion blur. CCD has much better low light performance and doesnt blur. But CCD is more expensive.

 

See the comparison table on this link:

http://www.dalsa.com/corp/markets/CCD_vs_CMOS.aspx

[thewireguys 3]

I want to avoid any blur on moving objects, but don't know what to look for exactly. I understand that CCDs are better than CMOS, but I don't know why exactly. Better low light performance?

 

For MP cameras I like Arecont, but they have only CMOS. For the rest I don't know yet.

 

CMOS does motion blur, keep that in mind. Even if you have enough light, you should expect some motion blur. CCD has much better low light performance and doesnt blur. But CCD is more expensive.

 

See the comparison table on this link:

http://www.dalsa.com/corp/markets/CCD_vs_CMOS.aspx

 

CCD also has motion blur.

[Voipmodo 0]

I would look at the mobotix cameras. Depending on the setup, you can even possibly reduce the number of cameras needed if you go with the Q24M-Sec model that does 360 Degree views. These are great for hallways or common areas as they can usually provide the coverage of up to 4 traditional PTZ cameras.

 

With 30 cameras you can record directly to a server/NAS Storage and each camera has a ring buffer that works to prevent lost footage in case your network slows down.

 

For software monitoring, Mobotix provides free software for managing the cameras in the control room. You can also integrate non Mobotix or analog cameras with adapters into the software for upgrade installations. If for some reason the Mobotix MX control center software isn't enough, you can look at video-insight software that is good for multiple site installations management.

[3RDIGLBL 0]

If you're going MP then chances are it will be progressive scan. Just make sure it is and this will help reduce any possible motion blur although night time motion blur is a different story in which progressive scan will not help you with a slow shutter speed.

[alpine0000 0]

I understand that CCDs are better than CMOS, but I don't know why exactly. Better low light performance?

 

http://www.axis.com/products/video/camera/ccd_cmos.htm

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_sensor#CCD_vs_CMOS

 

http://www.dalsa.com/corp/markets/CCD_vs_CMOS.aspx

[Soundy 1]

For as much as CCD is claimed to have "better low light performance", it's worth noting that CMOS is a mainstay of Canon's DSLR lineup, and their top-end DSLRs (5Dmk.II, newer 1D/1Ds models) have among the best low-light image quality of anything in their class. There's a lot more to it than just the composition of the sensor.

[Voipmodo 0]

For as much as CCD is claimed to have "better low light performance", it's worth noting that CMOS is a mainstay of Canon's DSLR lineup, and their top-end DSLRs (5Dmk.II, newer 1D/1Ds models) have among the best low-light image quality of anything in their class. There's a lot more to it than just the composition of the sensor.

 

Canon cameras in that range also have bigger sensors so there is less noise then most consumer level cameras. Also the digic chips they pack in there do some serious noise reduction at high iso's

 

Thats why my 5d outperforms my old rebel hands down in low light..

[koolmer 0]

For as much as CCD is claimed to have "better low light performance", it's worth noting that CMOS is a mainstay of Canon's DSLR lineup, and their top-end DSLRs (5Dmk.II, newer 1D/1Ds models) have among the best low-light image quality of anything in their class. There's a lot more to it than just the composition of the sensor.

 

Thats good, because I wanted to go for Mobotix or Arecont on the Megapixel cameras. And otherwise Acti or Axis for the non-megapixel ones. It really wouldn't make sense that the high quality brands (Mobotix, Arecont, Axis) use so much CMOS when the low light quality of these chips is a lot worse than on the CCDs.

[Soundy 1]

For as much as CCD is claimed to have "better low light performance", it's worth noting that CMOS is a mainstay of Canon's DSLR lineup, and their top-end DSLRs (5Dmk.II, newer 1D/1Ds models) have among the best low-light image quality of anything in their class. There's a lot more to it than just the composition of the sensor.

 

Canon cameras in that range also have bigger sensors so there is less noise then most consumer level cameras.

 

I said "in their class". Although, considering those ARE full-frame sensors, there's not a lot else to that class

 

Also the digic chips they pack in there do some serious noise reduction at high iso's

 

That was the main point, there's more to low-light performance than just the type of sensor used. Processing is a big factor as well.

 

Thats why my 5d outperforms my old rebel hands down in low light..

 

Also why my 40D is cleaner than my buddy's 50D - going from 10MP to 15MP on the same APS-C sized chip

[JoeShmo 0]

I found this thread while searching for recording software (using Exacq now). Figured I'd toss in what we're doing.

 

around 102 IP enabled cameras now, accross two Exacq servers. We went with Exacq because of the price (around $160 per camera, but we could purchase one at a time). Now, they changed things so in order to get software updates, we'll have to pay $30/camera yearly. Certainly adds up when you have over 100 cameras. We still have about 60 more analog cams that need to be converted to IP, let alone new cams going into other buildings. So we might be replacing Exacq soon.

 

We've only used Axis and Arecont at the moment.

Axis seems to induce alot of noise, making motion detection really annoying to try to fine tune. You can fix this a little by reducing the default gain levels on the cameras. We're using the 211A mainly, since it has the AI drive.

We're also using a few Axis 421QA analog-to-IP boxes, which are amost useless for motion detection, they seem to need to record full time. Adjusting sensitivty for motion detection on these causes it not to pickup people walking accross the frame, but sometimes record for no reason, because of the "noise" in the frame. We've ordered some Acti boxes to see if they are any better.

Arecont (using 1300M-AI) seems VERY nice for motion detection. They detection area grid is not as fine as Axis, but if I throw a paperclip accross the field of view, it picks it up, and theres not too many false "noise" recordings.

 

We record at full resolution, and 10 FPS on all cameras. For 60 cameras (Mix of about 50 Axis 211A, and about 10 of the Areconts), we get around 60 days of video on 4.6TB of disk space (using 3ware RAID 5 w/6 drives). Our building with the most cameras (around 40 cameras) generates around 135-200mbit/sec. Its a mix of Mjpeg and Mpeg4. With a new setup, you can most likely go with H.264, and see lower bandwidth and storage needs.

 

For switches, I'm kind of liking the Linksys/Cisco SRW208P. These are 8port POE switches with 2 gigabit uplinks (10 ports total). The two gig ports can also do SFP, so added bonus if you need to do fiber. Bonus is that they do SNMP, so we monitor bandwidth per port as well as uplink (We're at around 3mbit/sec per port). We're also using normal Cat5-E, as no single camera (even megapixel) is going to go beyond 100mbit. The 8 ports provides a nice failsafe to be sure you don't over-extend the switch or the gig feed (as long as you don't daisy chan too many). We then tie each SRW208P back to a Cisco 2960G, and put it onto its own vlan on our existing network (which can move later if it start taking up too much CPU). I'd suggest using a similar setup, finding a non-POE gig switch to tie the various SRW208P units back to. If this is going to be a seperate isolated network, no need to worry about routing, just keep it switched. If you hop onto an existing network, put some ACLs in place to only allow certain IPs to talk to the cameras.

 

So thats about it for what we're doing. Maybe you can get some information from the above. If I missed anything that you'd like to know about our setup, just let me know. Its pretty simple stuff.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, almost forgot to mention motion blur. We had some problems with this on an Axis 211A. I swapped it out with the Arecont 1300, and things seem ok now. After doing some playing, it basically comes down to lighting and shutter speed. The higher the shutter speed, the less blur, but darker the image. So sometimes, you can increase gain, but watchout for the added noise. Additionally, this is another reason for going with the AutoIris lenses, makes it a bit easier to deal with lighting. Also, if at all possible, avoid pointing cams at lights. When watching hallways, keep the ceiling lights out of frame. We don't have too many people walking on our ceilings, and if they did, chances are they'll be sticking dowm from the ceiling at least 6 inches, so we should be able to see 'em (grin).

[koolmer 0]

Alright! That's sounds like something I would like to copy Thanks for the info! This is going to be helpful. What non-POE switch would you recommend to get all POE switches together?

 

Can anyone say something about non-megapixel IP cams? Which brand can really be recommended? I thought about getting Axis, but now I am not so sure anymore.

 

What about alternative Software? Exacq seems real expensive and I doubt that I can convince the owner to spend such an amount of money yearly just to stay up-to-date.

 

koolmer