How to avoid "smart" customers?

[WRS_Mark 0]

Or maybe the same customer will not pull the same crap at Walmart because he/she is going to have a heck of a time finding anyone working there who could put together something as complex as a good CCTV system. Anyone can install a four camera system they buy at Costco or any other retailer but to do it right, to know what will work best for what application and who can properly install the system requires someone with knowledge and experience. Comparing a big box retailer to a reputable local dealer/installer is not the way to look at it. The retailer is not going to come to your home or business, assess drawings, check lighting conditions, distance to target, point out special considerations, etc., and then quote for you a custom system which will work based on experience and understanding of CCTV systems. Instead, they are going to point out the different products they sell and read the specs to you and give you a price. If that suits you, then great. I cannot speak for everyone out there but generally my markup on hardware accounts for the time invested on average with making calls, doing an on site assessment (even at places sometimes a couple of hundred miles away), spending time figuring out exactly what will work best within the customers budget, writing up the quote, ordering the equipment, tracking shipping, fighting at times with customs and then delivering the equipment. That usually gets me to break even and the labor rate is my profit. So yeah, I can understand someone who doesn't give all of the minute details when performing a quote because that someone will not be in business for very long.

[Soundy 1]

Or maybe the same customer will not pull the same crap at Walmart because he/she is going to have a heck of a time finding anyone working there who could put together something as complex as a good CCTV system.

 

Or because you don't even have the option to piece together components - you just pick out the box with the package you want, and pay what's on the pricetag.

 

Of course, we could all do the same if we wanted the same kind of simplicity. Offer three different cameras and two different DVRs and the only choices your customer has is how many cameras and how much he wants to pay. Would save a whole lotta headaches.

[dejota 0]

The reason I used Wal Mart as an example was because it's a store that buys products directly from manufactures and then markets them directly to the consumer.

 

The reference had nothing to do with quality of employees, level of service or anything other than the fact the customer goes there and makes their purchase with peace of mind they're getting the best deal or very close to it. Nothing else was ment to be implied, so please don't think I was comparing somebody who knows a product such as CCTV to the greeter at the front door.

 

But just because a certain level of expertise is required to sell a product doesn't change the fact that having a ton of middle men is the main reason the pricing world for CCTV is all over the map. As a consumer that's a big red flag and would explain said behavior many people were complaining about in this thread.

[WRS_Mark 0]

Guess what? It's the "middle man" who is the one installing the system. It is the "middle man" who is providing the technical support. It is the "middle man" who comes out and performs the quote. Most of the professional installers on this forum who provide volumes of absolutely invaluable knowledge are "middle men". Seems the "middle man" plays a pretty important role in this business.

 

That being said, it pays to shop around, ask for references (the most overlooked yet most crucial aspect when picking out someone to perform the job) and if you find a good one who is competitive on pricing, go with them. As I explained in the previous post, just don't expect the equipment to be priced comparable to Ebay. Or Walmart.

[dejota 0]

The middle men pass off their tech-support to me so much that's it gotten to the point that myself and other co-workers spend about half our day providing it. Whether the client gives the end user our number or the client is at the end users site and just calls us himself. It's a service we feel is important to provide for obvious reasons.

 

The middle man has learned and does nothing the end user or manufacturer can't do...get over it. It's not a knock on you or your expertise but this isn't exactly chemistry here. Sure it gets very complicated in some aspects, but we're talking about your average end user walking into your average spy/home-security store here not the Pentagon or La Guardia.

 

For every well trained and well versed "middle man" there's another one price gouging, providing no customer support and then complaining about customers thinking they're shady and untrustworthy. I'm just pointing out it makes no sense to complain about customers acting that way when it's painly obvious to anyone who does an hour of homework that nearly everything we sell has three or four figure markups by the time it gets to the end user. We're all consumers at some point, and in my experience the middle men I'm talking about are the one's who lose site of that.

[rajaymor 0]

i've even had the cheaky buggers wanting me to teach them how to do my job ! ! ! FFS !

 

Just charge him for it. $10,000 oughta cover a course on camera basics.

[tweak'e 0]

i've even had the cheaky buggers wanting me to teach them how to do my job ! ! ! FFS !

 

Just charge him for it. $10,000 oughta cover a course on camera basics.

 

yeah that would sort em out.

(for your info it wasn't camera orientated, i'm only an amateur at that)

 

did i mention the ones that wanted their house wired for free because they subscribe to the network i contracted for.

bloody sparkies, only interested in making a quick buck.

but of course lots of industries love to sell them gear because they know it will be done badly and it will go faulty. they get to sell a 2nd lot via the repair tech. 2 sales for the one customer, so of course they are loving it

[C.O.P. 0]

I think this is an interesting thread. I am glad it got bumped.

 

I would probably describe myself as one of those smart customers you guys are talking about. I generally do some of my own research first so I have a clue and compare apples to apples but then I like to get out there and see what's real. I tend to go to multiple sources for quotes and ideas. I ask questions to try to get an idea of how much the person really knows, how honest he is (hey, any women installers out there???), etc.

 

Sadly, there are certain professions I simply don't trust any more because they tend to hype themselves and/or take advantage of people. The professions are usually based on "wants" more than needs by the consumers. The three main ones I distrust are dentists, car dealers, and mechanics. Dentists because I feel they invent or exagerate the needs for some services and mechanics... well let's just say I don't know any good/honest ones. I am convinced you have to be sub-human to be a car dealer.

 

As someone said, quotes are asked for for a reason... to get the best price, quality, service, etc. The idea is you often will not get a 2nd chance so do your best in the first quote. IF you do get a 2nd chance, it's because you have something the customer didn't find elsewhere... he/she may just like you.

 

Markups = bad in my opinion. Unless you buy at a discount and mark it up to retail, why charge a markup on the equipment the customer can get themselves? This is an area you can use to undercut less connected and/or greedy competition. Simply say here's a DETAILED list of everything you need and how much it will cost through me. If need be (would seem greedy) say for the fee of $$$ (that can be removed as a negotiating point) I will be happy to provide it all or you can feel free to obtain any/all of it yourself.

 

Skills, experience, and TOOLS are, in my opinion, what you guys are looking to get paid for. The problem is, the customer may not need ALL of them to the degree you'd liek to sell them. It's kind of like the difference between a specialist and a family doctor. If you want business and the customer only needs a "family doctor", don't charge him/her the specialist fee even if you can. Be sure to explain why in case the current customer talks to previous customers who needed a specialist! In short, be willing to sell what the customer needs/wants, not what you want to push on them.

 

Knowledge is power. A lot of professions don't seem to get just how easy it is to look things up online these days. The "mysteries" of many professions can easily be broken by the internet.

 

As mentioned, "smart" customers make for much better references and word of mouth sales. If they dazzle a friend with technical jargon, you don't have to. If they make the sale, you don't have to. Unfortunately thay can be harder to please.

 

I had more to say but lost it in the details.

 

Some times the customer just isn't prepared for the cost. My 6ft stockade fence is a prime example. We wanted to put in 150ft of 6ft stockade last summer. I got 3 quotes. The lowest was $4800. The highest was $9600! The other was in the middle. We were shocked! I had already done some research but did ask each contractor what method and materials they planned to use. I got my own quotes for materials and came in much lower than all 3 contractors! If these guys do it for a living, their costs should be a lot lower due to volume and connections, not a lot higher!!! Granted, the labor is the hardest part about installing a fence and was the largest portion of the quote but all 3 contractors stated they had machines that "simply pounded the posts into the ground". How hard can that be!?!?!

 

The short of it was I looked up online how to build a fence. I bought all the supplies, tools, and equipment I needed (including a 2 man post hole digger, concrete, gravel, scrap wood for temp braces, etc.) to build a 250 foot (not the 150 I planned on) fence for a little less than $2000. I know the quality of craftmanship is not the same and it took a lot longer for my wife and I to do it BUT, we had little choice. The contractors should have looked at my house (all three came out to look at the site) and known I wasn't looking for a "work of art" fence or even the best materials... I wanted some privacy... period.

 

Now at least one of them drives by regularly and probably thinks, "that $#%^% pumped me for info just so he could do it himself!" not realizing it was the lumber yard 4.3 miles away that offered good prices and free delivery that screwed him.

[tomcctv 190]

when they call you back to say they can buy cheaper.............ask them to call you back in 20mins and you will have a better price the do something like this LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWeTlJi3eJ4

[C.O.P. 0]

My wife and I love that one.

I've tried to do play with telemarketers but I seem to get the smart ones that hang up fast.

 

My favorite is still, "Tell ya what, give me your home number and I'll call you back later."

[hostonmark 0]

In this case you cant directly avoid such smart customers but do it smartly that just provide a overview regarding quotes and tell for detail you need to visit to the place itself and have a perfect view and that would be charged if he or she dont go for purchase of the required items from his store.In this way you also get benefited for you work and some one cant able to make use of your talent free of cost.

[Soundy 1]

C.O.P. above is a SMART customer. Nothing wrong with that. I suspect that's how a lot of pros in this industry got their start.

 

The problem is the "SMART" customers, who think because they read a bunch of stuff on The Internets, they suddenly know everything there is to know on a subject, without actually having the faintest clue.

 

Case in point was the guy I watched in the Computer City, badgering the poor minimum-wage salesdroid with his new-computer shopping list. He wanted the absolute latest, newest stuff so he wouldn't have to upgrade for a long time... including 14-pin USB and 16-pin Firewire ports. The salesdroid had no idea what the guy was talking about (neither did I). Mr. Self-Important stated that he had researched the latest computer technology on the The Internet so he knew what was what and nobody was going to talk over his head!

 

He then produced the printout he had of an article instructing readers on what to look for in a new machine (I was in on the conversation by this point), and pointed out where it stated consumers should ensure their system had at least 1 4-pin USB and 1 6-pin Firewire port...

[crosseyed66 0]

I would rather try and educate the customer to a point so that he can compair apples to apples when he shops my price with the competition. I get frustrated when I put time into a quote and lose it because the "Other Guy" comes in at 3/4 the price with basically a Sam's club special and they end up with junk. I have lost out on several bids to a housing authority and when I went in to do a repair on a piece of network equip I could not believe when I saw a Chinese Mpeg-4, 16 channel 120fps unit sitting on the counter when they under bid us by 225.00 (it was to upgrade the DVR only) and we had bid out an intellicam 30fps w/raid back up.

go figure. They had an outside counsultant make the decision and never even looked at the specs. This company has installed complete systems at over a dozen of their complexes and I know that they are using junk equip but price talks.

[WRS_Mark 0]

This company has installed complete systems at over a dozen of their complexes and I know that they are using junk equip but price talks.

 

It does. I always tell the customer to call me if they are not happy. But I know the business and where the price needs to be, roughly, that is. So if someone comes in 25-50% less, I know I am going to get that call when something goes down and the recorded video looks like an '80's video game as far as picture quality goes. And that is when the customer unfortunately pays twice.

[crosseyed66 0]

Unfortunately where this hit us the hardest was a housing authority that had over a dozen sites, each one of a different design than the other. Several required hundreds of feet of trenching, with anywhere from 12 to 25 cameras per site. On one site there was 1600ft of trenching, 10,000 ft of cable, 25 vandal proof cameras, Low light, Variable focus specked out. They got the bid at 16,500.

And this was a public housing authority which required prevailing wage rates for and audits for all employees. This was last year, and the year before I did first ones (which they loved and was the deciding factor on doing the rest) and the ground is all rock, hardest trenching job I ever saw. Ate the extra cost ourselves, and I spent 2 weeks of my time doing proper layouts, camera requirements ((recommending where they could go to a fixed focus to save money) right on down the line for each complex. OH Well, Win Some Lose Some. Across the board we were about 50% higher than this other place, and the other Reputable bidder was 400 dollars higher on 1 to no more than 5% and the one with the biggest difference.

I always hate getting called in to fix OPM's (other peoples mistakes) since you can end up spending more trying to fix the problem that to just yank it and start over. But with the economy the way it is that is never the route they want to go.

[Sawbones 0]

Unfortunately where this hit us the hardest was a housing authority that had over a dozen sites, each one of a different design than the other. Several required hundreds of feet of trenching, with anywhere from 12 to 25 cameras per site. On one site there was 1600ft of trenching, 10,000 ft of cable, 25 vandal proof cameras, Low light, Variable focus specked out. They got the bid at 16,500.

And this was a public housing authority which required prevailing wage rates for and audits for all employees. This was last year, and the year before I did first ones (which they loved and was the deciding factor on doing the rest) and the ground is all rock, hardest trenching job I ever saw. Ate the extra cost ourselves, and I spent 2 weeks of my time doing proper layouts, camera requirements ((recommending where they could go to a fixed focus to save money) right on down the line for each complex. OH Well, Win Some Lose Some. Across the board we were about 50% higher than this other place, and the other Reputable bidder was 400 dollars higher on 1 to no more than 5% and the one with the biggest difference.

I always hate getting called in to fix OPM's (other peoples mistakes) since you can end up spending more trying to fix the problem that to just yank it and start over. But with the economy the way it is that is never the route they want to go.

 

The lowest-bidder is often the cheapest for a reason. For only a little more money, you can sometimes get a MUCH better setup... price-to-results is NOT a linear relationship. Of course, this only applies if you're dealing with people who will actually tell you the specs and models of what they're using... otherwise how do you compare apples-to-apples?

 

I prefer to buy quality. As they say, "buy once, cry once."

[Jack Liu 0]

Guy walks into the door with drawing and photos of his house wanting a detailed quote for CCTV system. I do lense calculation, suggest cameras, PC spec and storage space amount etc. Then he walks away with "I have to compare with few other quotes and then I`ll get back to you". Never hearing from him again you drive past his house and see there is a CCTV already installed. What happened - when he knows every single piece of kit he needs, he just buys everything himself and gets somebody to install it.

 

How to avoid that? You cannot just put "CCTV camera" or "lense" in qoute, customer wont take that, you must put "CCTV camera Samsung AA-555" etc.

 

Whats your experience?

 

As a salesman,you can't get 100% customers.What you need is almost.Not everyone is smart and smart client need more personal choice because their strong self-mind.If he knows your secret and supply channel,that's ok.. Your supplier should be monitered on your contract. If to other supplier,it's his issues.you don't be worry.

Keep contact and familar with him.Friendship are first step to sales.

Yup,just think about it.

Jack.Cantonk

[NTSC 0]

and get labour cheaper then your charging to much.

 

So, the proper way to price labor is to find out who is the cheapest and match his rates?

 

The cheapest guy is going out of business, and it's because his rates are too low. There must be a better way to set prices than to identify the most moronic of your competitors and copy their business model.

[Soundy 1]

and get labour cheaper then your charging to much.

 

So, the proper way to price labor is to find out who is the cheapest and match his rates?

 

The cheapest guy is going out of business, and it's because his rates are too low. There must be a better way to set prices than to identify the most moronic of your competitors and copy their business model.

Hahahaahaha, I love it... great first post, welcome to the board " title="Applause" />

[rory 0]

The cheapest guy is going out of business, and it's because his rates are too low. There must be a better way to set prices than to identify the most moronic of your competitors and copy their business model.

Depends where one lives, the cheapest guy gets the most business here for example. Lower rates equal more jobs equal more money.

[Soundy 1]

The cheapest guy is going out of business, and it's because his rates are too low. There must be a better way to set prices than to identify the most moronic of your competitors and copy their business model.

Depends where one lives, the cheapest guy gets the most business here for example. Lower rates equal more jobs equal more money.

Yes, but copying his business model means you have to undercut him - substantially. At some point, one of you will be operating in the red no matter how much volume you do.

[thewireguys 3]

I think this is an interesting thread. I am glad it got bumped.

 

I would probably describe myself as one of those smart customers you guys are talking about. I generally do some of my own research first so I have a clue and compare apples to apples but then I like to get out there and see what's real. I tend to go to multiple sources for quotes and ideas. I ask questions to try to get an idea of how much the person really knows, how honest he is (hey, any women installers out there???), etc.

 

Sadly, there are certain professions I simply don't trust any more because they tend to hype themselves and/or take advantage of people. The professions are usually based on "wants" more than needs by the consumers. The three main ones I distrust are dentists, car dealers, and mechanics. Dentists because I feel they invent or exagerate the needs for some services and mechanics... well let's just say I don't know any good/honest ones. I am convinced you have to be sub-human to be a car dealer.

 

As someone said, quotes are asked for for a reason... to get the best price, quality, service, etc. The idea is you often will not get a 2nd chance so do your best in the first quote. IF you do get a 2nd chance, it's because you have something the customer didn't find elsewhere... he/she may just like you.

 

Markups = bad in my opinion. Unless you buy at a discount and mark it up to retail, why charge a markup on the equipment the customer can get themselves? This is an area you can use to undercut less connected and/or greedy competition. Simply say here's a DETAILED list of everything you need and how much it will cost through me. If need be (would seem greedy) say for the fee of $$$ (that can be removed as a negotiating point) I will be happy to provide it all or you can feel free to obtain any/all of it yourself.

 

Skills, experience, and TOOLS are, in my opinion, what you guys are looking to get paid for. The problem is, the customer may not need ALL of them to the degree you'd liek to sell them. It's kind of like the difference between a specialist and a family doctor. If you want business and the customer only needs a "family doctor", don't charge him/her the specialist fee even if you can. Be sure to explain why in case the current customer talks to previous customers who needed a specialist! In short, be willing to sell what the customer needs/wants, not what you want to push on them.

 

Knowledge is power. A lot of professions don't seem to get just how easy it is to look things up online these days. The "mysteries" of many professions can easily be broken by the internet.

 

As mentioned, "smart" customers make for much better references and word of mouth sales. If they dazzle a friend with technical jargon, you don't have to. If they make the sale, you don't have to. Unfortunately thay can be harder to please.

 

I had more to say but lost it in the details.

 

Some times the customer just isn't prepared for the cost. My 6ft stockade fence is a prime example. We wanted to put in 150ft of 6ft stockade last summer. I got 3 quotes. The lowest was $4800. The highest was $9600! The other was in the middle. We were shocked! I had already done some research but did ask each contractor what method and materials they planned to use. I got my own quotes for materials and came in much lower than all 3 contractors! If these guys do it for a living, their costs should be a lot lower due to volume and connections, not a lot higher!!! Granted, the labor is the hardest part about installing a fence and was the largest portion of the quote but all 3 contractors stated they had machines that "simply pounded the posts into the ground". How hard can that be!?!?!

 

The short of it was I looked up online how to build a fence. I bought all the supplies, tools, and equipment I needed (including a 2 man post hole digger, concrete, gravel, scrap wood for temp braces, etc.) to build a 250 foot (not the 150 I planned on) fence for a little less than $2000. I know the quality of craftmanship is not the same and it took a lot longer for my wife and I to do it BUT, we had little choice. The contractors should have looked at my house (all three came out to look at the site) and known I wasn't looking for a "work of art" fence or even the best materials... I wanted some privacy... period.

 

Now at least one of them drives by regularly and probably thinks, "that $#%^% pumped me for info just so he could do it himself!" not realizing it was the lumber yard 4.3 miles away that offered good prices and free delivery that screwed him.

 

 

Your the do it yourself customer and that is fine. We have to make money and marking up equipment is one way we have to do it. All the time we spend designing, quoting, ordering, shipping, phone calls, warranty, interest charges, stock, delivery, insurance ... that is time we spend and we have to get payed for with product markup. I have no problem with my customers ordering there own product, it saves me a lot time and headaches. Except when all of the product is not on site the day of install, something doesn't work and has to be replaced (second trip to site), or they don't order products I spec'd. But I will not warranty your stuff, you can buy a service plan or pay per hour.

 

Personally I like smart customers they make my job easier , I don't have to spend my time explaining why the ADT package is cheaper. But what I don't like is the customer is that waist my time when do a site survey with them, design and quote system (this takes a lot of time to do right) only to have them shop it on the internet and do it themselves.

[rory 0]

Yes, but copying his business model means you have to undercut him - substantially. At some point, one of you will be operating in the red no matter how much volume you do.

like Brinks compared to the more expensive small alarm business?

the point is, there are much much more people that will spend less then there are that will spend more.

Not saying thats the way to go, but I know of many businesses operating like that and are doing well.

More money equals not operating in the red.

[Soundy 1]

Your the do it yourself customer and that is fine.

...

Personally I like smart customers they make my job easier , I don't have to spend my time explaining why the ADT package is cheaper. But what I don't like is the customer is that waist my time when do a site survey with them, design and quote system (this takes a lot of time to do right) only to have them shop it on the internet and do it themselves.

And in some cases (like C.O.P.), the come back through the process and continue to share what they're learning and discovering along the way, which can be beneficial to us as well - once again, the forum as a two-way street.

 

Some even stick around afterward...

 

(Speaking of which, wonder if C.O.P. is still out there somewhere and how his job ended up?)

[Jeroen1000 0]

Very interesting thread here. Allow me to chime in. I hope it is worth the time reading this.

 

I don't know where this forum is based, it is probably either US or UK. I'm from Belgium and here, there don't seem to be many professionals who truly want to help consumers. Companies help each other and what we, ordinary consumers often get, is cheated. I'm a computer engineer, and my hobbies revole around audio and video so, granted I invest enough time, I can often make reasonable sense of the specifications and shop as a smart customer. Moreover, I'm quite the geek( ) and all this techy stuff interests me. However, when it comes down to it, I would prefer a pro setting up my stuff. The time I spent in frustration for many things just isn't worth it.

 

 

I always shop abroad for my "high-tech" stuff (mainly the UK and the Netherlands). Customer service is very weak here (exceptions obviously exist). Once you bought it, the story often is good luck and good bye. If I received the same amount of help in a store, that forum members here hand over for free, paying fair money for a good setup would be an actual joy. The truth is, companies here overquote on average by 40-60%. Most stores here carry a very narrow product range and always try to sell what they have lying around. They are simply not interested in tailoring something to one's needs, and often they (sales persons) even lack basic technical expertise. On my hunt I saw many eyes glaze over upon mentioning Mobotix or Geovision: "Never heared of that brand Sir". Looking into an equivalent setup is too much trouble. Offers to visit the customer at home? Get out of town (quite litterally lol).

 

On the flip side, I'm sad to see people 'deceive' sellers in good faith. That is simply not done in my book. I strongly appreciate all the help and time, thank you.