Corner Mount IP Camera

[Tisko 0]

I work for a major university and we are switching from analog cameras to IP Cameras. I am thinking of mostly using Axis' products for the Cameras and depending on the bidding process, hopefully, Milestone or NetDVMS. Our elevators however create a problem, currently we are using a board camera with a corner housing mount that we use a series of baluns and a spare pair of wires in the traveling cable to get the signal to our DVR, but I cannot find a similar IP camera. Any suggestions? We have a drop ceiling in the elevators so dome cameras on the ceiling are out of the question, and I would like to avoid dome cameras mounted to the wall. Is there any camera out there?

[thewireguys 3]

If your happy with the image you could use a IP encoder with current camera and save alot of time and money.

[Soundy 1]

Some of the ACTi IP dome cams are essentially board cameras inside basic domes... you might be able to retrofit something like that.

 

The big problem will be wiring - even IF you have two pairs available in the runner lines, it would be iffy to use that for ethernet. You MIGHT be able use something like Veracity HighWires in conjunction with the baluns - they're designed to let you run ethernet over existing coax, but I don't know how it would work with the baluns.

 

You might be better off, if you don't actually need megapixel resolutions in the elevators, keeping the existing cameras there and using video servers (Axis makes some) to integrate them to your NVR setup.

[hardwired 0]

I've been kicking around similar ideas for a hospital we service. You have a few different options.. I'm not sure about a native IP camera that would fit in a corner enclosure. You could add encoders at the top of the traveler cable, but the signal through the traveler tends to be noisy.

 

I'm looking at something like this, http://www.axis.com/products/cam_m7001/index.htm ,but feeding our good existing WDR cams into it, and then using a DSL point to point link like this http://netsys-direct.com/proddetail.php?prod=NVF-200EKIT ,with one end on the elevator roof, and the other at the headend.

[hardwired 0]

Just remembered these..Pricey, though, but you get speaker and microphone, too, and Megapixel resolution... http://www.mobotix.com/eng_US/content/view/full/1676

And, Mobotix makes a twisted pair converter that could work over the traveler.. http://www.mobotix.com/eng_US/Products/Mx2wire

[Tisko 0]

We are not really thrilled with the quality of the picture now, but the way the system is setup we use numerous baluns and an untwisted pair in the traveling cable so we realize that the picture will not be great.

 

We got approval to tie on a Cat6 to the traveling cable so we will not have to use preexisting cables. We will most likely re utilize the existing localized power source on top of each car as well so no PoE necessary.

 

Originally we planned to use encoders at the top of each tower, but would really like to cut out as many of these splices and baluns as possible. These cameras when they go down are nearly impossible to troubleshoot and most of the time requires an elevator company tech to be present.

[hardwired 0]

We are not really thrilled with the quality of the picture now, but the way the system is setup we use numerous baluns and an untwisted pair in the traveling cable so we realize that the picture will not be great.

 

We got approval to tie on a Cat6 to the traveling cable so we will not have to use preexisting cables. We will most likely re utilize the existing localized power source on top of each car as well so no PoE necessary.

 

Originally we planned to use encoders at the top of each tower, but would really like to cut out as many of these splices and baluns as possible. These cameras when they go down are nearly impossible to troubleshoot and most of the time requires an elevator company tech to be present.

 

...And if elevator tech rates and attitude are anything like they are here, that's a pretty compelling reason.

 

I'd be a little worried about the durability of the Cat6 cable with the continuous flexing. even if you use the stranded form, it may not hold up very long...

[Tisko 0]

The flexibility is a concern of mine too, but unlike your experience we have a full time elevator contractor here that is easy to work with. It was through his company that we realized this was a possibility. They have done this with a couple cars elsewhere, but no where close to the amount of floors we have here. I am working with a company to find the best fit wire for this job as well.

 

 

Soundy, have you used those ACTi dome cameras? And, if so how is the connection between the Ethernet and the camera made? I imagine that will be the biggest hurdle to overcome when modifying these cameras.

[Sawbones 0]

If you're talking about the Acti domes (like the 7411, or 3411), it's not simply a board camera inside. There is also a circuit board that does the encoding, and power that board/lens assembly.

 

Are you proposing to separate the two components?

[Soundy 1]

The flexibility is a concern of mine too, but unlike your experience we have a full time elevator contractor here that is easy to work with. It was through his company that we realized this was a possibility. They have done this with a couple cars elsewhere, but no where close to the amount of floors we have here. I am working with a company to find the best fit wire for this job as well.

 

I'm not an expert on this, but considering that the existing wire you're using with the baluns is probably standard solid-core telephone wire, or maybe solid-core Cat3, I don't think stranded Cat6 would see a problem, at least not in the foreseeable future. We do have ONE elevator camera on one site, running on Cat5e, with no problems in the first two years. The wire was provided by the A/V company, who also run video to three small monitors using the other three pairs.

 

Soundy, have you used those ACTi dome cameras? And, if so how is the connection between the Ethernet and the camera made? I imagine that will be the biggest hurdle to overcome when modifying these cameras.

 

You know what, I looked at them when a customer brought them in to a site I was working on... I don't remember offhand how they connected, and I didn't actually install them. I *think* (but don't quote me on this) that the camera board (mounted on a basic two-axis yoke) connected via a small wiring bundle to a back-board, and that board had a PCB-mounted RJ45 jack... but I could be wrong about that.

 

Assuming I'm right though, the back-board might be able to go in behind your corner enclosure, or even on top of the car, with the interconnect wires extended as necessary.

 

One other thought, if you do end up needing to retain the existing cameras, you could probably improve the quality by reducing the baluns to two per camera, just one at each end (you make it sound like there are multiple pairs in use *per camera*). Of course, that assumes the camera themselve don't just suck.

[Tisko 0]

We use Coax to the Elevator Car Controller which is where the spare untwisted pair ends where our first balun is, then another balun at the elevator controller to coax again where it meets up with a Cat6 to take down three separate feeds and then again there is another balun to coax which takes it to the DVR. Not my design, but its what I have to work with, and why I want to change it. The cameras themselves are excellent, high quality board cameras but it is all lost with all the baluns.

[hardwired 0]

Here's a 7411 harness, there's 4 wires in one harness, 12 in the middle, and 2 on the right... might be a hairball...

 

some standard res IP cameras I've seen just have the standard power, vid, ground between the cam module and encoder section, though..

[Soundy 1]

We use Coax to the Elevator Car Controller which is where the spare untwisted pair ends where our first balun is, then another balun at the elevator controller to coax again where it meets up with a Cat6 to take down three separate feeds and then again there is another balun to coax which takes it to the DVR. Not my design, but its what I have to work with, and why I want to change it. The cameras themselves are excellent, high quality board cameras but it is all lost with all the baluns.

 

Ah, yeah, the "double-balun" chaining is probably most of your problem. The untwisted run up the traveler shouldn't be an issue - I've run power and video to cameras in gas station pump canopies over standard station wire without a problem, and that's running past all kinds of AC power and along inside a fluorescent-lighted sign board.

 

I think your best bet may be to just leave the existing cameras, if they're good enough quality already, use the existing traveler run and baluns to the control room, then come straight out the balun there and into an encoder. You'll need network into the control room, but you'd need that anyway if you were putting IP cams in the elevators. Fortunately, you should be able to do just a single network drop there, and a small switch for the encoders to plug into. Or, use a multi-camera encoder - four cameras to a single network port (Axis has several four-channel models).

 

Worst case, if this doesn't work, you can then add the Cat6 drops down the travelers, put a switch at the top, and just pipe all your IP cameras down the one drop.

[hardwired 0]

If the cams are good, I'd keep them, and just go with an encoder on the cab roof...

[Soundy 1]

If the cams are good, I'd keep them, and just go with an encoder on the cab roof...

 

There's that too, although that still requires adding the Cat6 to the traveler.

[hardwired 0]

If the cams are good, I'd keep them, and just go with an encoder on the cab roof...

 

There's that too, although that still requires adding the Cat6 to the traveler.

 

Looked like the OP was fairly OK with that... Or, if he could keep eveything twisted pair all the way through, he could use my DSL extender idea...

[Tisko 0]

I am not really seeing an easy solution to this problem until a company develops an IP Board Camera. I agree the untwisted pair is not as large of a problem as the numerous baluns, but in one of our towers for some reason the traveler is slightly different and has an unshielded untwisted pair which creates all sorts of noise.

 

The money for the project is there so adding a Cat6 to the traveler and just encoding on top of the car might be the best option though we would have to purchase a PoE switch and use a PoE single port encoder.

[Monitor Your Assets 0]

Is flush mount an option? The Mobotix Q24 might be an option if there is ample light.

 

 

Another option is the Mobotix dev kit.

[Tisko 0]

Neither of those are options that would work in this application. Though I might be able to use that dev kit elsewhere.

 

Thanks everyone for your help!

[Soundy 1]

The money for the project is there so adding a Cat6 to the traveler and just encoding on top of the car might be the best option though we would have to purchase a PoE switch and use a PoE single port encoder.

 

Isn't there power on top of the car already?

[thewireguys 3]

 

Mobotix corner mount

[Tisko 0]

The money for the project is there so adding a Cat6 to the traveler and just encoding on top of the car might be the best option though we would have to purchase a PoE switch and use a PoE single port encoder.

 

Isn't there power on top of the car already?

 

Yes. That is what we are planning on using, but either we use a transformer which I have in the past that tends to fall out of the receptacle or we hard wire it in or use a 1-port PoE encoder.

[Voipmodo 0]

I third, i think it is worth considering to use the mobotix cameras. The poe will simplify wiring and installation and if you did not want to add the cat 6 to the traveller you could opt for a wireless link if you have coverage. The build in audio in the camera could act as a secondary backup PA system. Those vandal corner cameras are a little pricey though i agree. I wish there was a lower cost version available.