under car/vehichle 2 camera system help

[Bulana 0]

Hi all, my first post here, I've been thrown in at the deep end,

I Just started as the only employee in a cctv company, the boss is overseas indefinately and i have to design and quote an under vehichle system for a local hotel in Indonesia. The hotel plans to use 2 cameras to achieve the desired field of view.

 

If any of you have designed or installed a similar system, any pointers on cameras/lenses and lighting would be appreciated.

 

I think i'll be posting here regularly in the next couple of months untill i get my feet on the ground and some experience under my belt!

 

All the best,

 

Bulana

[tweak'e 0]

what are they looking for under the vechile? bombs, drugs....??

is it just for viewing (ie by guards) or just for recording?

[Bulana 0]

Hi Tweak'e,

your questions are valid, Indonesia , and in particular where the system is to be installed has had some issues with terrorists and bombs. The cameras will be used to help in bomb detection and will be both recorded and viewed live by the Hotel security staff.

 

Many thanks

 

Bulana

[tweak'e 0]

RUN !

 

seriously, thats the sort of job you pass on. consequences of any failures could be seriously nasty for a lot of people and including yourself should they take it out on the installer.

 

i can't imagen it being to hard to design something to work tho i would go for far more cameras so it can cover very wide vehicles and ones that are not positioned very well above the cameras. i assume you have some way to stop the vehicles in roughly the correct spot (ie barrier arm controlled by security staff)

you will want very good detail and to have good focus control as vehicles vary in height off the ground.

 

not the sort of job i would want as a new employee!

[Bulana 0]

You're right, it's a total nightmare from a new comers perspective, however, the hotel is an existing client and they haven't really got too many options.

 

Regarding liability, not an issue. I feel common sense and some combined input of experiences will go a long way to an effective deployment. I have read some very detailed insightfull replies to threads by regular forum members.

 

Vehichles have both a speed hump and a boom gate as physical barriers and also men with large, fully automatic weapons to encourage correct positioning and movement over cameras.

 

I have considered the issue of varying heights of different vehichles and will wait to see what suggestions are forthcoming regarding hardware and positioning below ground.

 

I appreciate your input Tweak'e.

 

Many thanks ,

 

Bulana

[net surv 0]

You don't need to run from this project. IC Realtime has a speed-bump cam setup for 2 to 6 cameras. They can be bolted to the road surface using anchors.

 

http://www.icrealtime.com/solutions/cameras.asp?cameraid=UVSS

[tweak'e 0]

i think that sort of project calls for a lot more than speed bump cams. high quality detail without distortion (ie no curved look due to wide angle lens).

 

hopefully someone has some neat tricks for these sorts of setups.

[kensplace 0]

You're right, it's a total nightmare from a new comers perspective, however, the hotel is an existing client and they haven't really got too many options.

 

Regarding liability, not an issue. I feel common sense and some combined input of experiences will go a long way to an effective deployment. I have read some very detailed insightfull replies to threads by regular forum members.

 

Vehichles have both a speed hump and a boom gate as physical barriers and also men with large, fully automatic weapons to encourage correct positioning and movement over cameras.

 

I have considered the issue of varying heights of different vehichles and will wait to see what suggestions are forthcoming regarding hardware and positioning below ground.

 

I appreciate your input Tweak'e.

 

Many thanks ,

 

Bulana

 

Even if there is no financial liability on your part if it does not do the job right, (which seems odd), what about the liability to life, if a bodge job lets through a vehicle with a bomb, and that bomb kills a lot of people?

 

Apart from the morality issue, if a bomb does go of, how will it look on the hotel part, and your part, and your companies part if an investigation shows they hired someone with no experience at all, who trusted total strangers on the internet to give them advice for a device meant to detect bombs?

[thewireguys 3]

i think that sort of project calls for a lot more than speed bump cams. high quality detail without distortion (ie no curved look due to wide angle lens).

 

hopefully someone has some neat tricks for these sorts of setups.

 

The IC Realtime has a speed-bump cameras are no joke...... They are in use by the US Military and the Secret Service for under under vehicle inspection. One advantage in using these camera is they are very inconspicuous.

[tweak'e 0]

i think that sort of project calls for a lot more than speed bump cams. high quality detail without distortion (ie no curved look due to wide angle lens).

 

hopefully someone has some neat tricks for these sorts of setups.

 

The IC Realtime has a speed-bump cameras are no joke...... They are in use by the US Military and the Secret Service for under under vehicle inspection. One advantage in using these camera is they are very inconspicuous.

 

the cameras themselves are not a problem, just speed bump tend to look at the front and along the bottom at an angle. where you really need to be looking straight up and with a camera above ground its going to be tricky to get the width of view without distortion.

 

i would imagen that they would have the cameras under the ground looking up. hold the vehicle at the barrier while they look via the cameras.

you would want to see the whole vehicle in the screen(s) while its stationary, not try and view it as the vehicle drives over the camera.

[Lolo Wolf 0]

Explosive detection goes beyond the traditional cctv design devices. The truck-car explosive often employed is commonly triggered before any detection by realtime camera systems which is why there exists so much footage of incidents after the fact. Hardened entrances (no straight line roadway with barriers and multiple curves) in combination with trained personal and dogs are added security. There are many incidents of truck-auto crashing past entrances, the human interaction is important in so far as personal trained to watch facial and body signs but time is key for detection, to limit the loss of life, a fine example of the newer tech being designed is the Idaho National Laboratory which has constructed a portal-style vehicle-borne explosives detection system. the Idaho Explosives Detection System has been installed at Ohio's Wright- Patterson Air Force Base for semi-permanent field testing.

It deploys: pulsed thermal neutron generation - two neutron generators - one on each side - they saturate the vehicle with neutrons at a rate of 2,000 repetitions per second- rapid interrogation causes the molecular makeup of materials inside the vehicle to excite and emit gamma rays. At the same time, a series of 32 sodium-ion detectors identifies the signatures of the gamma rays. If explosives are present, IEDS will alert operators in less than 300 seconds. To isolate heavy traffic entrance is beyond the scope of just viewing the "speed bump" camera for underbelly explosive devices, often High Explosives are secreted within the trunk, engine and or cargo areas of vehicles or even on the person as well packed into the driver compartment.

[Soundy 1]

Wow, this is getting WAY out there! Some nice toys there, Lolo, but probably a bit beyond an Indonesian hotel's means

 

Guys, I think the basic concept here is, it's better to do SOMETHING than to do NOTHING. Obviously none of these systems will be 100% effective, but even something 20% effective will save some lives! I doubt wide-angle distortion will be a huge concern, either - basic vehicle underbody design and layout doesn't vary THAT much around the world, and someone watching on a remote monitor (particularly a trained security expert) will be able to tell pretty readily if something looks out-of-place enough to warrant stepped-up safety measures.

[Lolo Wolf 0]

Ok, perhaps you are correct, cctv and security dealing with the monitoring of assets, protecting and preventing theft/criminal behavior in a residential/commercial environment are indeed most discussed on the board however when the topic of bomb or explosive sabotage and related acts of terrorism came into topic I thought its important to be extremely vigilant and well versed in all the technology and threat analysis that is currently in motion in order to give advice. Often the criminal mind is to flee after a crime/intrusion, however the terrorist has a primary objective less the concern of their own life and that is a huge difference when it comes to security and related monitoring issues. I didn't mean to take the topic "way out there" Regards and safe holidays to all.

[Soundy 1]

Nothing wrong with being vigilant and aware of the technology available! Most of us around here LIKE to hear about extreme, "out there" technologies, even if we aren't likely to ever implement it ourselves. My comment was more directed at those trying to discourage the OP with the potential drawbacks to any solution here. As long as the client understands that there are no guarantees to any solutions provided, I stand by my assertion that doing SOMETHING is better than doing NOTHING. I suspect the client is thinking the same way.

[net surv 0]

No system can guarantee the safety of it's area of protection no matter how many gadgets you install. Can any installer or manufacturer guarantee that an employee won't short the till, a dealer won't deviate from procedure, a customer won't slip and fall, or a gas pump won't have a drive-off once a system is put into place?

 

I think it just comes down to understanding what the client wants and what the local regulations/codes require, like any other install. Find out what the requirements are, do the homework and then make sure you can install the equipment to meet those requirements. If your work is good, you'll get more. But as always, don't take on a job that you're not qualified to do.

 

Happy Holidays to all!

[zmxtech 0]

I would have white light Illuminator and a IP camera [say 1.2Mp]

running at 1/1000 it could check the car out before it even stopped at the

gate. mag sensors could turn that on.

 

A thermal camera will pick out any funky objects for sure

tho might be pretty hot under there. -the prices are coming down

 

I dont think a speed bump cam is not going give the Res you need to sus it

out right -tho it will give an overview -and it will need more light

 

for a whole view it might take 2 or 3 cams+ but hey that's easy

 

my 2c

[tomcctv 190]

I would have white light Illuminator and a IP camera [say 1.2Mp]

running at 1/1000 it could check the car out before it even stopped at the

gate. mag sensors could turn that on.

 

A thermal camera will pick out any funky objects for sure

tho might be pretty hot under there. -the prices are coming down

 

I dont think a speed bump cam is not going give the Res you need to sus it

out right -tho it will give an overview -and it will need more light

 

for a whole view it might take 2 or 3 cams+ but hey that's easy

 

my 2c

 

speed bump cameras are very good. remember places still have guys with mirrors on poles. and the speed bump camera will see more. as far as thermal cameras. not under a car or truck. to much heat in its runing gear and bombs are not hot. (well till they go off) the speed bump camera system can be 1 upto 6 cameras looking under the cars. so type of install, 4 camera speed bump then just past the cameras a barrier so as cars and trucks have to drive slow over cameras and then stop at barrier.

demo. http://www.icruvss.com/html/demo.html

[Mnorman 0]

Interesting, I just got done with a two week academy on bombs, especially revolving around the Indonesian issues. Since I have a little insight into the bomb mentality, I will offer my advice since I already helped spec out a security camera plan for a jurisdiction on a border.

 

I would say you need to answer a few basic questions that I didn't see in the original post or the subsequent responses.

 

1. Is there an existing system and is it upgradable? (You said they are an existing customer)

 

2. Do the searches happen 24/7?

 

3. Do the cameras need to be explosion resistant, or are they expendable if a given incident occurs?

 

Off the bat I would tend to agree that Megapixel is the way to go, but with a high FPS to compliment. Arecont ones tend to boast some of the highest FPS out there for medium budgets, although I don't like working with them since the features really leave some things to be desired.

 

You stated that the client is looking at 2 cameras to cover the job. It would be nice for them to allow for 2 lower-than-grade holes in the driveway area for installers to put any camera you choose on articulating arms, should slight tweaks in angles be needed. If blast protection is required, plexi or armored transparent glass could be installed over the mounts.

 

Look for a camera/lense combo that is IR sensitive at the very least, for additional IRs to be added if lower lighting is not good; but I would hope they would also add a diffuse spotlight in the driveway as well to illuminate the underbelly of the vehicle. That light could be hooked to a relay and controlled by the security staff if needed, from any PTZ controller or software based controller. I think a 1.3 to 3.1 megapixel camera would do the trick, with a lense that gives a horizontal view of about 75 degrees or so. That would allow for digital zooming in on areas tucked near the runningboards or next to the gas tank area. I would imagine that a front to back design would be preferable as opposed to both sides, and having an overlap in viewable coverage from front to back.

 

A little insight into the practices regarding bombs in those countries now: Most of the major movements, polictical or otherwise have had training in one form or another from prominent bomb making organizations. The most prominent in that region is the IRA. Now that region is seeing initial bombs going off to summon emergency responders, and then a few minutes to hours after, a second device goes off to kill said responders. There is growing evidence that IEDs are now being built into emergency use equipment like fire extinguishers and the like. Car bombs are still primarily placed in the trunk, whether they be explosive or deflagrating/incendiary.

 

Best regards...hope it works out. There is no surefire way to protect against such occurrences, but upgrading a place into a harder target is always a good option.

[Lolo Wolf 0]

Secondary entrapment and or explosive/ambush is a technique used historically for many years world wide. as I noted earlier. to monitor a entry point with cctv to detect a explosive device and prevent a detonation without constant vigilance and trained personal with combination of local and regional intelligence, dogs and behavioral monitoring it is most probable that one will only capture after the fact footage,if such a incident occurs, this evidence is noted in the archives filled with actual footage of such acts. The hardened entry with barriers and meandering roadways can lessen the negative impact and the destructive blow but still it is a high risk that should be addressed by seasoned operators that are trained with all the latest security data and devices. Any investigator or training studies should start with Buda's Wagon. Just google it and gain some insightful info on the "first car bomb" ... Healthy New Year to all , regards

[alasl01 0]

Ok I do have a question, in relation to the loading/unlading area of the hotel, where is the location of the inspection area?

 

As previously mentioned, if this is going to be at the lobby or loading area of the hotel, this task will be more for the fact of doing something but will have little effectivity as most IED will be detonated upon reaching those areas. This means that for there to be an effective inspection, the inspection needs to be done further from the main building so there will be time for hotel security personnel to review the images and make a determination.

 

IMHO

Assuming that the inspection location is away from the building and that security personnel will be able to detect IED's appropriately. What will be needed are some mega pixel cameras (facing directly up) that are compatible with the immervision lens. This lens will allow a full 360 degree view in the undercarriage witn no barrel distortion so that security personnel can actually zoom in after the vehicle has passed and make determinations. Due to the closeness between the ground and the undercarriage of the vehicle a 2 mega pixel camera should suffice.

 

Please see the lens info here: http://www.immervision.com/en/security/

 

I hope this helps. Also note as previosly mentioned, undercarriage IED's are usually small devices i.e. pipe-bombs and such. For stronger more sufisticated devices the trunk of the vehicle is usually used which wouldn't have anything detectable on the underside of the vehicle. The only way to combat these larger devices be using MP camera to view the driver, with trained personnel who will hopefully detect microexpressions of stress on the drivers face which may warrant further investigation.

 

Counter-terrorism is a very specialized field which is on a constant evolution due to the fact that when security professionals come up with a detection system, then another system is improvised or used. This is why it is imperative that hotel and larger organizations attain consultation from firms strong in this field to design solutions rather than use integrators alone. It is cheaper, but to truly provide a solution their are many variable that need to be looked at and an indepth security assessment is the only way to find out exactly what is needed.