New To CCTV, System Suggestions For Outdoor Use

[mpcd 0]

Hello all, I am a complete novice to CCTV. My only experience so far is I've had an initial quote from CCTV installer 2/3 years ago but did not go ahead at that time due to cost/budget. Since then I've continued to find myself a victim to low level vandalism to my 2 business vehicles and am tired of it. So my goal is simple,

 

1. Prevent further vandalism.

2. If not have good evidence to convict.

 

For the later I know I will need TV quality CCTV that can capture during on street lighting at night. I have no fixed budget as such but was quoted about £1200 to supply/install 1x DVR unit, 2x night vision cameras @480 lines about 2 years ago. All previous vandalism has occurred at night, on a main road at night.

 

I am a computer technician by trade and am willing to consider PC based DVR but I must admit leaving my PC 24/7 in my house makes me very nervous / electric costs etc! The only thing that puts me off dedicated DVR is they are noisy considering it will be in my home somewhere? I think I will need 3 cameras to cover the front of my house to cover probably 20-30m distance. I want the best quality CCTV video for playback so I'm guessing max FPS is required 24/7 and probably 380 lines or higher. The system must produce sharp video to be useful for the police. No good recording grainy video!

 

Here's an example I what I want to achieve from CCTV. Pictures taken with my digi camera with ISO3200 no flash. Hopefully CCTV can be this good?

 

Camera 1 (proposed)

 

Camera 2 (proposed)

 

Camera 3 (proposed)

[Soundy 1]

Welcome aboard, Paul!

 

As a computer technician, you should know the power draw of a basic PC (I assume we're not talking some monstrous gaming system here) isn't all THAT great. Consider that your typical standalone DVR is built around PC or PC-type hardware with an embedded OS, and you're probably not looking at that great a difference either way.

 

A bigger concern with using your existing workstation is the processor and disk space requirements - you'll find the recording can cause a noticeable slowdown to your regular tasks, and/or your regular tasks can potentially cause problems with the recording. Worse, if something else you're doing causes the system to freeze or requires a reboot, your recording is offline during that time.

 

Recording video can take a LOT of space as well, and should at the very least have a dedicated hard drive, especially since most DVRs will start to overwrite the oldest footage once the drive is full. If you're putting on a drive shared with other applications or your system, the more OTHER data you put on that drive, the less is available for video, and you could find yourself running out of recording space before you notice it - the most likely scenario in this case is that you go back to find some footage you think SHOULD be there, only to find it's not because other data has filled too much of your drive.

 

For these reasons especially, pretty much everyone here will recommend that if you want a PC-based DVR, you should buy or build a dedicated system for it.

 

Probably one of the more recommended cameras for your situation here would be the Panasonic 484-series "SuperDynamic III" cameras - WV-CP484 for a box camera, or WV-CW484 in a dome model. The fact that their successors are now on the market means the prices should be starting to come down (although not too quickly, because they're still excellent cameras). Or given your computer background, you may prefer to look at the NW484 models, which are network cameras that will allow you to record directly to your computer (with appropriate software) without the need for additional capture hardware.

[cglaeser 0]

Pictures taken with my digi camera with ISO3200 no flash. Hopefully CCTV can be this good?

 

1. What digicam did you use? Many digicams have sensors that are huge compared to typical CCTV sensors.

 

2. What shutter speed did you use? Setting a very low shutter speed can produce night images with good detail, but anyone walking across the field of view will be a blur.

 

Best,

Christopher

[zmxtech 0]

you only have 3 overviews which is no good if you want to actually catch an ID

 

I would suggest 1 wide angle catch all, 1 cam at your front door a left and right camera that are zoomed into the footpaths to get IDs.

on the left you have a well lit bus stop there so use that to your advantage.

on the right a street light -more light for free that will get you best shots.

 

And yes any camera will take a good static shot if the shutter is slow, but this is useless if there is motion -person walking or a car.

 

my 2c

[Soundy 1]

If the shutter was that slow, he'd also have a hard time holding the camera steady enough to get shots that sharp, unless he used a tripod. Remember, this thing isn't mounted on a wall bracket.

[mpcd 0]

Welcome aboard, Paul!

 

As a computer technician, you should know the power draw of a basic PC (I assume we're not talking some monstrous gaming system here) isn't all THAT great. Consider that your typical standalone DVR is built around PC or PC-type hardware with an embedded OS, and you're probably not looking at that great a difference either way.

 

A bigger concern with using your existing workstation is the processor and disk space requirements - you'll find the recording can cause a noticeable slowdown to your regular tasks, and/or your regular tasks can potentially cause problems with the recording. Worse, if something else you're doing causes the system to freeze or requires a reboot, your recording is offline during that time.

 

Recording video can take a LOT of space as well, and should at the very least have a dedicated hard drive, especially since most DVRs will start to overwrite the oldest footage once the drive is full. If you're putting on a drive shared with other applications or your system, the more OTHER data you put on that drive, the less is available for video, and you could find yourself running out of recording space before you notice it - the most likely scenario in this case is that you go back to find some footage you think SHOULD be there, only to find it's not because other data has filled too much of your drive.

 

For these reasons especially, pretty much everyone here will recommend that if you want a PC-based DVR, you should buy or build a dedicated system for it.

 

Probably one of the more recommended cameras for your situation here would be the Panasonic 484-series "SuperDynamic III" cameras - WV-CP484 for a box camera, or WV-CW484 in a dome model. The fact that their successors are now on the market means the prices should be starting to come down (although not too quickly, because they're still excellent cameras). Or given your computer background, you may prefer to look at the NW484 models, which are network cameras that will allow you to record directly to your computer (with appropriate software) without the need for additional capture hardware.

 

Hi Soundy, thanks for your detailed reply. Considering all you've said I think a dedicated DVR will be best for my needs. Most DVRs that I've seen have VGA out. My computer is currently using HDMI to my PC. Can a dedicated DVR still connect to my spare VGA port on my monitor and still work or will I need a new seperate monitor? There are plenty to choose from but any tips what to look out for? Maplins are currently doing this http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=341939&source=1

[mpcd 0]

Pictures taken with my digi camera with ISO3200 no flash. Hopefully CCTV can be this good?

 

1. What digicam did you use? Many digicams have sensors that are huge compared to typical CCTV sensors.

 

2. What shutter speed did you use? Setting a very low shutter speed can produce night images with good detail, but anyone walking across the field of view will be a blur.

 

Best,

Christopher

 

Hi cglaeser

 

It was a digital camera not a webcam. I cheated, my camera has a auto feature ISO3200 so I don't know what shutter speed was used? I do know I had to keep my hands very still otherwise picture would easily blur plus a car passed and blurred also so you are right, camera picked up good light but not so good for moving objects. This will mean then that most cameras will produce dark images with current light levels? Heres a photo with car passing...

 

Edited January 2, 2010 by Guest

[mpcd 0]

you only have 3 overviews which is no good if you want to actually catch an ID

 

I would suggest 1 wide angle catch all, 1 cam at your front door a left and right camera that are zoomed into the footpaths to get IDs.

on the left you have a well lit bus stop there so use that to your advantage.

on the right a street light -more light for free that will get you best shots.

 

And yes any camera will take a good static shot if the shutter is slow, but this is useless if there is motion -person walking or a car.

 

my 2c

 

Hi zmxtech. Not sure I understand? These picturse showing a mock up of what I had in mind do overlap each other so why would this not be good to identify someone? Is it a legal thing? Remember what I'm trying to cover are my 2 cars. I also want to cover as much of the parking as possible cause I can't always park outside my house.

[mpcd 0]

Lastly, you can see what sort of area I'm trying to film and in what type of light. I will look at the cameras mentioned but wonder what sort of coverage I should be looking for. For example, this system http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=341939&source=1 the cameras only have a 10-12m night vision range, that will bearly reach the kirb stone where the cars park so I'm no sure what type of camera to buy. There are cameras that provide 40-50m of night vision but they are more expensive plus as you can see I do have some light? I'm not under an illusions, I know you get what you pay for, but I don't want to over spend when it's not necessary.

 

Seen this night vision camera - http://www.iviewcameras.co.uk/Professional%5FNightProfessional%5FNight%5FVision%5FDay%2DNight%5F50M%5FInfra%5FRed%5FCAR%2DR550HQ/version.asp?PID=30

[Soundy 1]

Hi Soundy, thanks for your detailed reply. Considering all you've said I think a dedicated DVR will be best for my needs. Most DVRs that I've seen have VGA out. My computer is currently using HDMI to my PC. Can a dedicated DVR still connect to my spare VGA port on my monitor and still work or will I need a new seperate monitor?

 

That should work fine... only drawback to that is that you can't watch both at the same time, unless your monitor does split-screen or PiP.

 

There are plenty to choose from but any tips what to look out for? Maplins are currently doing this http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=341939&source=1

 

You'll have to rely on others for that, then - I deal almost exclusively with PC-based systems. The only standalone units I've worked on, with one or two exceptions, have been super-cheap junk that go in only because of super-cheap clients.

[Soundy 1]

It was a digital camera not a webcam. I cheated, my camera has a auto feature ISO3200 so I don't know what shutter speed was used?

 

If you go back to the original files from the camera and view them in a good free viewer like Picasa or IrfanView, it will show you all the relevant exposure data - ISO, shutter, aperture, etc. I tried it on your posted pics, but they've obviously been resized and then re-saved without that data.

 

I do know I had to keep my hands very still otherwise picture would easily blur plus a car passed and blurred also so you are right, camera picked up good light but not so good for moving objects. This will mean then that most cameras will produce dark images with current light levels? Heres a photo with car passing...

 

 

Depends on the camera. Some will slow the shutter down and achieve the same motion-blurred effect you have there. Others will simply be very dark. The benefit with SOME CCTV cameras is, like with SLR photography cameras, you can change to a lens with a larger opening that allows more light.

[Soundy 1]

you only have 3 overviews which is no good if you want to actually catch an ID

 

I would suggest 1 wide angle catch all, 1 cam at your front door a left and right camera that are zoomed into the footpaths to get IDs.

on the left you have a well lit bus stop there so use that to your advantage.

on the right a street light -more light for free that will get you best shots.

 

And yes any camera will take a good static shot if the shutter is slow, but this is useless if there is motion -person walking or a car.

 

my 2c

 

Hi zmxtech. Not sure I understand? These picturse showing a mock up of what I had in mind do overlap each other so why would this not be good to identify someone? Is it a legal thing? Remember what I'm trying to cover are my 2 cars. I also want to cover as much of the parking as possible cause I can't always park outside my house.

 

What he's saying is that with the views you have there, you won't get a clear enough shot to ID someone in most cases - the shots will simply be too wide and not have enough detail. Remember that analog CCTV systems record at a maximum resolution of 720x480 (most closer to 640x480 to 702x480)... basically the same resolution as you posted pics. If someone you didn't know or recognize was standing beside your car in those pics, would you be able to positively identify him from his face? Factor in that you'll lose some detail to compression as well - probably a little closer to the attached picture.

 

There are two ways around this: one, high-resolution megapixel cameras... or, as zmx suggests, one wide overview of the parking area to capture activity, and a couple of tight views on the sidewalk approaches to capture detail of anyone entering the area.

[mpcd 0]

Mmm so much to consider. Thse cameras you suggested are not night vison so they are not going to be as good. I would want hi res cameras but where do you start looking? I'm considering a dedicated PC cause it's my area of expertise but a dedicated DVR would be simplier - have some ideas but at this stage I may chat with CCTV specialist as this seems to be a mine field of info and I want to get it right. Having never used CCTV or know if its capabilities or limitations I'm a bit blind!

[cglaeser 0]

Having never used CCTV or know if its capabilities or limitations I'm a bit blind!

 

The majority of home security camera systems are essentially just high-tech time stamps. The home owner wakes up in the morning, determines that their car has been burglarized, reviews the security video, and sure enough, at precisely 2:27 in the morning, the video shows someone breaking into their car. Looks like a male, but could be a female, wearing a hat, sweatshirt, jeans, and tennis shoes. Not too many people with that description in the city. Should be an easy bust. They review the video a few more times, and sure enough, the burglary started at 18 seconds after 2:27 in the morning. In the end, that's all they really get, just the time.

 

Building more than an expensive burglary time-stamp can be a design challange. For example, you could add other devices that alert you at the time your vehicle is potentially being vandalized. Being on the street is particularly tough compared to, say, a driveway where virtually any movement would be suspect. Street lights help with lighting, but there is seldom enough light at night for a good ID, so you may have to add IR. You'll probably need multiple cameras, some wide and some tight. With luck, the tight shots actually get something actionable. You could use a PTZ with sophisticated video analytics (e.g. ioimage), but that's getting pricing. Just some things to consider before starting this project.

 

Best,

Christopher

[Soundy 1]

I'm considering a dedicated PC cause it's my area of expertise but a dedicated DVR would be simplier -

 

You might want to use some dedicated systems before you make that call - most of them, the interface is pretty limited and clunky compared to a good PC-based system (depending, of course, on the skill of the interface designer). Take a look at www.video-insight.com and www.3xlogic.com and browse some of their demos and screenshots to get an idea how inclusive a Windows-based DVR's interface can be.