Need Advice on a Custom Design 8ch system

[chijam 0]

Looking to put together a custom system for a house that's on the water. Being that it's on the water, it's very dark in the backyard area. The front has a few street lights. And since we are in Seattle, it's rains often and is moist, I was looking at IP66 rated cameras.

 

1. Suggestions for a 8 ch h264 30fps card for a PC? Brand? One that has a really simple and easy to use software/UI. Hasremote access, remote backup, mobile access as well. From what I've seen looks like cards are around $1000

 

2. IR camera decent range that's IP66 rated?

 

3. IR camera long range that's IP66 rated?

 

4. Non IR cameras - dome and vandal proof that's IP66 rated?

 

I have no idea on what card to get but for camera's here's my thoughts so far:

 

5 of these - pointed down the sides and back of the house, where its pretty dark

Samsung SIR-4160 IR Day/Night Security Camera

 

1 of these - pointing towards the water area, where it's super dark, only moonlight if there's no clouds

Veilux SVB-56IRC80L650D Day/Night Infrared

 

2 of these - in the front since there is street light and IR not needed

Samsung SVD-4400 Day/Night Vandalproof Dome Security Camera

 

Any comments on the above cameras appreciated. Or if you have suggestions on comparable cameras I don't mind switching if better for the similar or less cost.

 

Other than the card, cameras, what else do I need to buy?

 

Thank in advance.

John

 

[edit by mod, store links removed]

[tsd 0]

Looking to put together a custom system for a house that's on the water. Being that it's on the water, it's very dark in the backyard area. The front has a few street lights. And since we are in Seattle, it's rains often and is moist, I was looking at IP66 rated cameras.

================================================

can also use IP65 Rated if saves money for more protection use out door housing and mount

================================================

1. Suggestions for a 8 ch h264 30fps card for a PC? Brand? One that has a really simple and easy to use software/UI. Hasremote access, remote backup, mobile access as well. From what I've seen looks like cards are around $1000

==================================================

I have personally tested these CNB technology standalone DVR which makes life easier without the need of a computer and liked the performance and it's very user friendly excellent on remote view

 

if looking for 30fps in total consider CNB technology HDE2412 it's 120FPS, 15fps on each camera

 

if looking for 30fps on each camera cnb technology HDE2424DV with DVD-RW

==================================================

 

2. IR camera decent range that's IP66 rated?

=========================

CNB B1760N4.3 IP65 rated 530TVL

==========================

3. IR camera long range that's IP66 rated?

==========================================

CNB B2760N IP65 530TVL with 34 IR LED Lighting Distance

max 30M

===============================================

4. Non IR cameras - dome and vandal proof that's IP66 rated?

====================================

CNB V2867NVF 550TVL Day & Night non IR IP65

====================================

I have no idea on what card to get but for camera's here's my thoughts so far:

 

5 of these - pointed down the sides and back of the house, where its pretty dark

Samsung SIR-4160 IR Day/Night Security Camera

 

1 of these - pointing towards the water area, where it's super dark, only moonlight if there's no clouds

Veilux SVB-56IRC80L650D Day/Night Infrared

 

2 of these - in the front since there is street light and IR not needed

Samsung SVD-4400 Day/Night Vandalproof Dome Security Camera

 

Any comments on the above cameras appreciated. Or if you have suggestions on comparable cameras I don't mind switching if better for the similar or less cost.

 

Other than the card, cameras, what else do I need to buy?

 

Thank in advance.

John

 

[edit by mod, store links removed]

[bike_rider 0]

Can you be more specific about what exactly each camera is expected to do? Think it terms of distance to the target, area you want to cover and how much detail you want to pick up.

 

Why are you set on IR? Visisble light is usually not hard to add. IR is good when you want (semi) convert, but do you need it to be dark?

 

Mobile access- which phone platform? Some DVRs support pltforms more than others.

 

You'll need a power supply for the cameras, a UPS, siamese cable, some tools, connectors, etc

[dejota 0]

I don't know much about PC cards except that they seem incredibly illogical to me. I'd never recommend one over a standalone DVR and unless you have a killer machine with over 500GB storage that you never use and that can run 24/7 I don't see how they save money either.

 

But like I said, I don't know enough about DVR cards to take it much further than that so don't just take my word for it.

 

And as far as the cameras are concerned, don't only concern yourself with what area's they have to cover but what pictures you'd expect each camera to provide you with (I.E. a close up, a car's color/make/model as it drives by, a license plate number, a face, etc.). I see so many examples of people planning a CCTV system, thinking that they have every inch covered only to have an incident occur then they *** because they didn't get the IMAGES they wanted. Just because the entire space shows up on footage doesn't always mean those images will serve your purpose. So while we can all recommend you cameras that serve general purposes/lighting/scenes well, it's up to you to determine what you need to capture on these images for your practical purposes (Do you want to be able to ID the thief/vandal or just find out when your most vulnerable so you can take some other course of preventative action?).

 

Hope that helps.

[craiga 0]

One thing that can be quite useful is to have the motion detect working -- so you are alerted to movement around the house (when you are at home or not or both). In order for motion detection to be useful you need minimise false alarms. Some things to consider, YMMV...

 

Downward facing cameras don't work well for motion detection if you have pets. From directly above, humans and cats are about the same size and many dogs appear much larger -- this makes it impractical to try to discriminate between human motion and pet motion which may mean lots of false alarms depending on where your pets can roam. Best is to position cameras so they are looking from the side (along the front, back, etc. side of the house). Humans will be much taller than pets and you can configure motion detection to more easily ignore the much smaller looking pets from this angle. Perspective becomes an issue -- if you are too low then a pet closer to the camera will appear larger than a human -- you'll still need multiple cameras to cover one side of a house well because people will appear too small to detect easily at the other end of the house. It takes some thought, but good placement of cameras makes them much more useful for motion detection alarms.

 

Bushes. Obviously if your camera can only see walls, decking, paving and no greenery then you will have less problems with bushes setting off motion. Although shadows cast by moving trees etc. can be worse, so you're not necessarily completely in the clear just because the camera can only see walls and concrete. You can mask areas, but depending on the camera angle that isn't a solution. Bits of greenery much smaller than humans in the image aren't really much of any issue.

 

Spiders. Spiders love the space between the shield that sits above many IP66 bullet cameras. It's a perfect hiding place and they can build their web around the camera and walk over the lens all the time. You don't want this. Removing the shield will greatly reduce spiders (fine if the camera is mounted under the eves), however bullet cams and their mounts provide lots of complex spaces that are perfect for building webs. Vandal-proof dome cameras provide far less of a home for spiders. Seal any places were insects can get into the housing or behind it (if there are any) with silicon. Insects setting off alarms continuously are not helpful. The SVB-56IRC80L650D and SIR-4160 cameras would be great homes for spiders in my opinion -- although you may have less of a problem if they are highly exposed to the weather...

 

I'd be inclined to use a camera in the darkest back area that had no LEDs. And i'd be somewhat more inclined to use an Sony Exview chip camera rather than the Super HADs you are using everwhere else (it's more sensitive). And place two IR illuminators separate from the camera (mounted as far away as practical from the camera to illuminate the scene well -- the same as you would do to light with visible light). This should provide better illumination of the scene, and prevent insects flying near the camera from appearing as giant super brightly lit ghosts (and setting off the alarm). Note that motion detection when you are covering a wide area, particularly from a high vantage point, can be impractical because humans appear far too small.

 

Dome cameras. I like the turret dome cameras (even though they require silicon to seal up the insect houses that the housing forms) because i get occasional condensation inside my real dome cameras (IP66 by itself can't stop this from happening). The turret domes don't really have any space inside -- the glass is flat and the lens sits right up against it (just like a bullet camera). You can get the same 1/3" sony super had ccd chip in this style. YMMV...

 

Make sure the angles covered by the lenses you get on the cameras are the right choice for their location.

-Craig

[rory 0]

I don't know much about PC cards except that they seem incredibly illogical to me. I'd never recommend one over a standalone DVR and unless you have a killer machine with over 500GB storage that you never use and that can run 24/7 I don't see how they save money either.

Superior Evidence Sharing over Standalone DVRs, Cheaper, Faster Frame Rates, Typically many more features due to Windows OS, and Easier to Fix (off the shelf parts).

[dejota 0]

Superior Evidence Sharing over Standalone DVRs, Cheaper, Faster Frame Rates, Typically many more features due to Windows OS, and Easier to Fix (off the shelf parts).

 

I could see the evidence sharing and had never considered that part. Do cards allow you to store the data in different file formats or something similar?

 

As far as the cheaper, see my above reasoning and 4 channels aren't even three digits to purchase anymore (not all of them). How expensive is a low end/fewer features card?

 

Faster frame rates? Doesn't that, at the end of the day, have more to do with other equipment and compression technology than the DVR or Card?

 

And as for the features, can you give me some examples? Can you do things such as stream data over the internet to a remote hard drive? Things like that?

 

I hope this didn't come across as an attempt at a debate, I'm way too green when it comes to CCTV for me to go around pretending like I know better than anyone. I'm just genuinely curious.

[rory 0]

I could see the evidence sharing and had never considered that part. Do cards allow you to store the data in different file formats or something similar?

Yes, many will record as AVI format, which right away makes it easier, but either way most will save as AVI, which in a stand alone DVR is rare, it is typically only in their proprietary format and requires their player to play the video. When I say typically, that is a vast majority. There are exceptions.

 

As far as the cheaper, see my above reasoning and 4 channels aren't even three digits to purchase anymore (not all of them). How expensive is a low end/fewer features card?

They could be as cheap as you want. There are many DVR cards in the lower 2 digit price range, Most cases just like the 2 digit stand alone, you will experience alot of issues or drawbacks. Ofcourse for just a few dollars more one could get a better card like Geo with full features, so if selling it to clients, buying a 2 digit DVR is not worth it, typically poorly written software.

 

As for other prices, unless one spends over $1000 on a 4 channel DVR typically you wont even find one that does all channels in D1. Ive been looking .. found like 1. The cheapest Geovision (as example) card will do D1 on all channels easily. Most of those under $500 DVRs are only CIF and if you see many even just record in quad, not each channel separately.

 

Computer for DVR can easily cost as low as $200, and you can add any amount of hard drives you like. As you may know, many, especially the 4 channel DVRs, have restrictions on how many or the size of hard drives you can install into them. This makes a huge difference, especially when the DVR already has poor compression and poor motion detection / mo motion masking (if using that).

 

Faster frame rates? Doesn't that, at the end of the day, have more to do with other equipment and compression technology than the DVR or Card?

Nope, its the DVR. Though as it is software compression in most cases (there is also hardware compression), it does ofcourse depend on the PC, any current day PC has no issue with most frame rates, real time 16 channels for example though can require faster PC. You can buy cards with various frame rates, even the most basic PC card has faster frame rates then most $500 or less DVRs, for recording. For a couple dollars more you can upgrade to a faster card, and so on and so forth, either way, you can get it, full D1 record on all channels in real time video and can add as much storage as you like, hard to find in a 4 channel stand alone DVR, and even if you could find it, it would typically be alot more expensive, in the 4 digits.

 

And as for the features, can you give me some examples? Can you do things such as stream data over the internet to a remote hard drive? Things like that?

Features can be next to endless with current day PC DVR software, so unfortunetely I wont start a list here, but I would suggest visiting a PC DVR manufacturers website, such as Geo (link below).

 

Now, the thing is, there is also a huge difference when comparing a 16 channel stand alone and a 4 channel stand alone, in most cases the manufacturer has dished out alot of their time and money into that 16 channel but to keep cost as low as possible, they put alot less into the 4 channel, leave out tons of features (less work, less coding, etc), to keep that DVR as cheap as possible, as there is a huge market for the cheapest thing. Many people can afford 2x 4 channel DVRs but cant afford an 8 or 16 channels .. for example .. im sure you have seen those 2 digit prices on Newegg. Also, if you buy a Bosch or Pano DVR you can typically find more "working" features then in some OEM ones, but at a much greater cost.

 

Overall though the biggest limitations to stand alones is evidence sharing and repair - in the 4 channels, the biggest limitations is the quality of the recorded video, most are in CIF and the ones that claim D1 typically only do D1 in 1 channel and the rest in CIF. I use both PC and Standalone BTW, there is a place for both. If you have the kind of client you never want to talk to again or seem a little PC illiterate, throw in a stand alone and run Harsh Environment, lots of heat and dust? Stick in a standalone. Everything has its place.

 

Im not endorsing Geo, though I do use it, im open to others as well. But this is just an example. Also check out Vigil, Video Insight, Nuuo, and others. Avermedia has cards but going by other reviews its not as feature rich as Geovision, ive used the Avermedia Standalone myself, among many others.

 

http://www.geovision.com.tw/english/product/GV-SystemV8300_Feature.htm

http://www.geovision.com.tw/english/3_1.asp?stable1=Pro&sfiled=pgid&pno=33

 

 

Im busy writing software right now, so sorry if I cant explain as much. No problem with the questions or debate, thats what we are here for

[dejota 0]

Excellent info, thanks! That helped a lot and now I have some questions to as my bosses. They must hate me with all my questions, but there's a lot of information and with everyone in the industry an "expert" you have to know a little about a lot of things to even hang with some of the conversations I've been having.

 

Here's another question for you: What is more popular? Standalones or cards?

[rory 0]

That really depends on your clients and where you live. Here there is alot of poor people, so the cheaper is more popular, and in that case, it would be the really low end 4 channel DVRs. Basically 4 cameras is all they can afford in many cases, actually some only 1 camera. Bear in mind, where I live we pay 45%+- Customs on Stand alone DVRs, but just 10%+- Customs on Computers. If I were to take guesstimate, I would say at least here, stand alones are more popular with Homes and Small businesses, while PC Based DVRs being used more for larger businesses, basically the cheaper places dont have the right environment for PC DVRs in most cases, such as lack of A/C or very dusty. But like I said, it will differ depending on where you live and who you target.

 

There is one thing i know for certain, if I was to sell a DVR every day I would build my Own PC based and stock parts to fix them, but still have backup stand alones for the bad locations.