Backup camera with 28 IR LEDs...any good?

[twoshoes 0]

First post....

 

Great forum. I've been looking through the posts for the last hour and I have learned a ton.

 

I am looking for a backup camera for my Ford cargo van. I want to mount it up high (see attached photo) on the bottom part of the frame for the utility light that is on the rear of my hightop. I can run the wires through the fixture for the light.

 

I will angle the camera down to get a bird's eye view of everything behind me.

 

I did some research and decided I wanted:

 

- small, color CCD camera

- wide angle somewhere between 100-150 degrees

- good low-light performance

- waterproof

- rugged

- less than $150

 

I know that most cameras for less than $150 are probably going to be considered to be crap by most professionals but, unfortunately, I can't spend more than that and I just need something that has a decent picture day and night.

 

I found this one on eBay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/CCD-NIGHT-VISION-HQ-WIDE-ANGLE-REAR-VIEW-BACKUP-CAMERA_W0QQitemZ250510552178QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a5397ac72

 

The specs are impressive but I have some concerns, mainly about the IR LEDs....28 of them seems like overkill. I like the idea of the high number of LEDs having a farther illumination range but, from what I have read on this forum, I'm concerned the high number of LEDs will just create blown-out white areas in the image, especially under street lights and that kind of thing. And I have read that IR LEDs in the camera (epecially a high number of them,) can create a spotlight effect if they don't have the proper throw and are not properly aligned. I'm also concerned about LED reflection off the shield with that many LEDs.

 

Essentially, my question is, what do you guys think about this camera for my needs? They also sell one with 18 LEDs...would that be better? Any other advice/ recommendations?

 

Thanks in advance.

Jim

[Soundy 1]

Personally, I'd go with a B&W camera and NO LEDs.

 

1. B&W *in general* gives better low-light imaging than color.

2. Obstacles will show up just well in B&W as in color.

3. You can buy a much better B&W camera for the same price as a cheap color cam.

4. If your backup lights are working, you shouldn't need extra illumination anyway.

[tweak'e 0]

don't worry to much with IR, your brake/reverse lights will give off more than enough light.

i've got a similar sort of setup but with sony chip instead. i will probably cut the IR's off as they tend to white out the pic a bit.

 

what sort of screen are you looking at using?

what sort of use are you looking at using it for? looking for kids behind vehicle, for actually reversing up a drive without mirrors?

the reason i ask is with wide angle lens you will only see short range, especially with it mounted up high and with small screens.

ok for seeing kids but not their toys on the ground. also a right pain to try and reverse with.

you may want to look at a truck version which has a 4-6mm lens.

 

with those cheap ones watch the seals. my first one leaked and died.

[Soundy 1]

BTW, have you considered something like this?

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/4/Auto/CarAudioVideo/InCarVideo/PRD~0352518P/3.5%252BBack-Up%252BCamera.jsp

 

For CDN$150 (be around US$125) the package includes the monitor, transmits wirelessly, and best of all, you don't have to buy from a shady eBay seller. (If you're not in Canada, these guys will ship... but you can probably find a local retailer at most larger auto parts stores in the US... if not the likes of Walmart or Costco).

 

Edit: in fact, Walmart lists a couple different cameras, including one starting at <$35:

http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=camera&search_constraint=0&tc=0&ic=48_0&ref=+125875.126086&tab_value=1889_All

[twoshoes 0]

Thanks for the replies.

 

I am purchasing this 4.2 inch LCD monitor...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d.html/ref=mp_s_a_1?tag=gpse-20&qid=1264214068&a=B001TE0HS6&sr=8-1

 

It fits my needs exactly because I live in an area where cars are frequently broken into. Which means I can't have an expensive looking monitor mounted anywhere (or video unit in my stereo) and I don't want to pull out a monitor and put it away everytime I back up. The mirror monitor just looks like a mirror.

 

I also want to stay away from wireless because I get a lot of interference in the city.

 

I may consider B&W but I really would like color so I can more easily reference vehicles behind me.

 

I would like to use the camera for driving in reverse, not just for seeing what's behind my bumper. So it's good to know that the wide angle is probably just horizontal angle and not necessarily verticle angle. Ideally, I would like a camera that could see from my bumper to the horizon.

 

What are truck cameras? Do you have a brand or a link? Any other suggestions?

[tweak'e 0]

dunno about 4" screen i have 7" and thats barely big enough.

 

truck camera.... its just a board camera in a housing you can fasten onto a panel, same as the ebay one. they do make ones for mounting on sides of vehicles. truck ones usually come with bigger lens as they are often mounted high off the ground.

you will need something like a 6mm to actually drive using the camera. also you should be able to see the number plates of tailgating traffic (not sure if you will be able to read it on a 4" screen)

i tried the standard 3mm and that was hopeless. i run a 8mm but thats a bit tight for close stuff but good for looking up the driveway (or in my case reversing into buildings). 6mm should be a better compromise.

[twoshoes 0]

Thanks for the info. I would love a 7" screen (or bigger) I just can't think of a way to mount it so it wouldn't be conspicuous.

 

So is the smaller the size of the lens, the wider angle it is? I don't understand the significance if the number 6mm you mentioned. And do you have a link to a camera you can give me as an example? That would help me get a better idea of the kind of unit you're talking about.

[tweak'e 0]

6mm gives you 90 degrees.

 

thats the usual 3.6mm, vechile about 4-5ft from camera.

 

same camera about 15ft or so.

 

excuse the poor pics, had a system fault. 8mm lens probably around 15ft or so. but you can see down the road quite well which is what makes it so useful for reversing.

 

the hard part is finding a reversing camera with a bigger lens. i bought the lens separate and fitted it which is why the rear pics look fairly well washed out. i still might go to a 6mm myself.

[Soundy 1]

6mm gives you 90 degrees.

 

Not even close. 6mm on a 1/4" sensor will give you about a 33-degree horizontal field of view. Check any lens calculator (this one is quick and easy: http://www.sweeting.org/mark/lenses/cctv.php)

 

So it's good to know that the wide angle is probably just horizontal angle and not necessarily verticle angle.

 

The angle is the same on both axes. Or rather, the ratio is the same. A wider horizontal view will give a correspondingly wider vertical view as well.

[tweak'e 0]

1/3" sensor tho not to sure with the calc, it doesn't seam to give anything close to advertised angles even for the usual 3.6mm lens.

 

my bad anyway, 90 degree should be 3.6mm lens.

[twoshoes 0]

I'm kinda confused now. What kind of camera should I be looking for?

[Soundy 1]

1/3" sensor tho not to sure with the calc, it doesn't seam to give anything close to advertised angles even for the usual 3.6mm lens.

 

my bad anyway, 90 degree should be 3.6mm lens.

 

According to the calc in CCTV Design Tool, a 2.7m lens on a 1/3" sensor will give you a 65.9 degree horizontal field of view, and 51.9 degree vertical. 2.8 gets the horizonal up to 81.2 degrees. The sweeting.org calculator gives the same results. For a full 90 degrees, you'd need a 2.4mm lens.

 

I'm kinda confused now. What kind of camera should I be looking for?

 

Most standard pre-fabbed backup cameras will come with either a 2.8mm or 3.6mm lens. Most are also 1/4" sensors. That will give you about a 65 degree, or 54 degree horizontal field of view. It doesn't really sound like much, but in my experience installing a couple dozen of these things on garbage and recycling trucks, that's more than enough to see everything going on behind you. In your case, you'll probably want to go with the wider one, since your camera will be mounted a bit lower, but it will still be plenty.

 

And yes, those are all B&W - they give far better night performance than color. Think about what this camera NEEDS to do before worrying about how pretty the picture looks.

[tomcctv 190]

I'm kinda confused now. What kind of camera should I be looking for?

the camera you posted is ideal for your needs. it is built for just your purpose. and the other good thing about the camera you posted is you have the flip picture mode. makes it a good reversing camera.

[twoshoes 0]

The eBay camera I posted says it has a 120-degree view but, according to the lens calculator posted above, it should only have an 81-degree angle (1/3" sensor, 2.8mm lens). What gives?

 

I hear the argument for B&W. I have read a few things from people that say color is nice because it allows you to more quickly and easily identify vehicles and objects behind you...which makes sense, because color is another tool for identification. So, one could argue that color is a safety feature (which is why I am interested in it), not just a pretty picture.

 

In any case, I am having difficulty finding a B&W backup camera. The B&W cameras I am finding aren't dedicated backup cameras and lack things I need, mainly waterproofing and reverse picture.

 

I just found this camera, which may be good because at least the LEDs are outside of the shield that protects the lens, possibly minimizing reflection. But it doesn't have a sun shade above the lens like the eBay one does...

http://www.tti-plus.com/CNB-550TVL-IR-Mobile-Video-Backup-Camera-12VDC-p/cnb-cn330ir.htm

[twoshoes 0]

Just to be clear, this is where I want to mount the camera (see red circle)...

[tomcctv 190]

both cameras you have posted and both will do the job you need. both cameras will be colour in the day and switch to b/w at night then your ir will come on. both the cameras are made as reverse cameras so i would not bother looking at lens types.

[Soundy 1]

The eBay camera I posted says it has a 120-degree view but, according to the lens calculator posted above, it should only have an 81-degree angle (1/3" sensor, 2.8mm lens). What gives?

 

Right off the top of my head... some eBay vendors are full of ****?

 

 

Either that, or the unit has some sort of additional "lens" in the cover that will stretch or distort the image, but that doesn't appear to be the case from that picture.

 

Also that style of camera almost certainly is based on a simple internal "board camera", which almost universally use 1/4" sensors. I'm not saying this one DOESN'T use a 1/3" CCD... just saying, don't be surprised if you get it and discover it's only a 1/4". Not that it will make a huge difference to you, other than losing a about 15° of FOV.

 

My guess is, this vendor is betting on the fact that most eBay shoppers wouldn't know the difference between 1/3 and 1/4" sensors even if they did bother to disassemble the camera to look at it, and wouldn't recognize that they're not getting anywhere near 120° in their view.

 

I hear the argument for B&W. I have read a few things from people that say color is nice because it allows you to more quickly and easily identify vehicles and objects behind you...which makes sense, because color is another tool for identification. So, one could argue that color is a safety feature (which is why I am interested in it), not just a pretty picture.

 

Yes, but you don't need to IDENTIFY a car or object behind you... you just need to see that it's there. When you're backing up, does it matter if the car you're about to hit is red, blue, or grey? Are you less likely to back over a guy if he's wearing a green shirt vs. a brown shirt? Being able to see it AT ALL is more important than knowing what color it is - there will be plenty of time to get out and look at the colors AFTER you hear the *CRUNCH*

[tweak'e 0]

those standard lens in the reversing cameras usually distort the veiw a fair bit and also makes distance hard to calculate.

 

when i first fitted mine (3.6mm lens 1/3 sensor) it was hopeless trying to back with it. fine for seeing if a object was there (ie person etc) but being able to line up a driveway, garage door etc from 40ft away was just a joke (let alone 100yards). however very good for backing right up close to an object (ie loading dock). you can see those last few feet very well, you just can't see bugger all until you get within those last couple of feet.

for a backing camera on a car bumper those lenses are fine for backing into a parking spot. however when you start mounting it up high you have moved the camera 4-5ft away which puts it out of it effective range.

 

best bet is to find something you can change the lens with, then you can adjust to suit. however the housings are usually made to fit those lens. bigger lens stick out a bit more, so you can't always get the lens to fit.

some of the bullet cams are meant to be able to change lens quite easly.

 

LED's....don't worry about it, reversing lights light it up well enough.

 

most likely you would have to mount the camera to the top or side (bottom corner) of that light.

 

trouble i had was getting a camera that DIDN'T reverse the picture as my screen does the reversing.

 

http://www.viewtech.co.nz/cms/index.php?page=browse&key=/Vehicle_Systems/Cameras

 

its not the ones i have but gives you an idea.

[tomcctv 190]

buying a camera then chaging the lens is not a good idea you need the camera to be water proof and also air tight. plus were you need to mount it you want a good steel camera these are not a bad camera can evan have sound.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.rockyamericas.com/usa/pic/cw086Gal.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.rockyamericas.com/usa/hotDeals.html&usg=__4samyX_slDRRTIoCKvT0fb2h-0Y=&h=325&w=325&sz=40&hl=en&start=191&um=1&tbnid=9UGmBaBE53wVfM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dreversing%2Bcamera%2Busa%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:*:IE-SearchBox%26sa%3DN%26start%3D189%26um%3D1

[tweak'e 0]

a lot of the box style ones you simply unscrew. they have seals etc (depending on how cheap they are made) otherwise a bit of sealant doesn't hurt biggest thing is if the camera fits inside with the new lens on. mine had packers in it which i removed to give the extra bit of room.

 

some places list various optional lenses but that may be BS.

[twoshoes 0]

most likely you would have to mount the camera to the top or side (bottom corner) of that light.

Why?

 

 

I will be using my side mirrors mostly for lining things up in reverse. I would like to see traffic and more distant things behind me, but if I had to chose one over the other, I'd rather have the ability to see the space more immediately directly behind me, for parallel parking and making sure I'm not about to hit something when backing up. Would a camera mounted up high or down low be better for this?

 

Should I consider getting a bullet camera and mounting it lower (near the bumper)?

[tweak'e 0]

most likely you would have to mount the camera to the top or side (bottom corner) of that light.

Why?

just thinking of size and location to attach it. hard to tell in the pic what that lip under the light is like. got a nice flat panel to the side of the light easy enough.

I will be using my side mirrors mostly for lining things up in reverse. I would like to see traffic and more distant things behind me, but if I had to chose one over the other, I'd rather have the ability to see the space more immediately directly behind me, for parallel parking and making sure I'm not about to hit something when backing up. Would a camera mounted up high or down low be better for this?

 

Should I consider getting a bullet camera and mounting it lower (near the bumper)?

 

good question. I'm not sure whats best. I'm just trying to imagen what its going to look like in a 4" screen.

camera up high has the advantage of a better over view especially as you have some gear on the back doors but it has the disadvantage of being further away. wide angle lens will mean you won't be able to see any real distance.

a camera on the bumper would be better for parking right up close to objects.

 

what about one of the 7" screens that fit on the sun visor? or even one of the bigger reversing mirror screens?

[tomcctv 190]

why try to reinvent the wheel. this camera is built for the job and has a very good spec and its not from crap ebay. and for your type of vehicle up top is far better than a bumper cam. http://www.rockyamericas.com/usa/products/surface_mount_rear_view_camera_087.html

[tweak'e 0]

why try to reinvent the wheel.

because the wheel doesn't fit.

what are you going to see with the image distortion, poor distance perspective, with it mounted at a distance and on a 4" screen? not enough to be worth the $$$ even for cheap one.

they are generally design for seeing things like kids behind the vehicle. or backing into a tight car space. camera is usually on bumper ie close. for that use they work fine.

 

i would also go for sony over sharp. you don't need high res, 380 will be fine, its being able to get clear view in different light thats important.

one thing like about mine is being able to look into the dark garage that you can't normally see into.

[twoshoes 0]

what about one of the 7" screens that fit on the sun visor?

I think that might be the ticket...

http://www.amazon.com/Power-Acoustik-PT-727MSV-7-Inch-Monitor/dp/B0007YYG18?tag=gpse-20

 

There seems to be some debate about the pros/cons of mounting it up high vs. down low. Again, I primarily need something that can clearly see the area immediately behind my bumper, extending out 10-15 feet for aiding in parallel parking and making sure I don't hit anything while backing up. Being able to see further back (for driving in reverse) would be great but isn't critical, especially at the expense of being able to see right behind me.

 

I would love to mount it up high for the "big picture" perspective but not if the image gets distorted and ugly in the critical area I need to see directly behind me because of the added 4-5 feet of distance. And I would love to mount it on my bumper for the clarity of the image of what's directly behind me and the direct line-of-sight it would provide (the camera would be pointed "out" rather than "down").

 

Is there some sort of camera/location combination that gives the best of both worlds?