Requesting Comments on Security Cameras for Condo

[MiamiRob 0]

I am on the Board of my condo. We are installing a new security system. We will spend about $350,000. I am writing to request comments on the cameras that the security company has proprosed. We have not finalized the design so changes can be made. (The system will also include access control.)

 

I work in the technnology field for a large corporation and I am experienced in designing and installing local and wide-area infrastructure for large office towers and other types of buildings and managing the installation of those systems. However, I have never been involved with security system design and I am trying to educate myself quickly.

 

The company is suggesting the follow cameras:

 

9 of Sa-SCC 4301 Hi Powered Zoom, $320 each

13 of Speco CVC 650 IRVF Dome, $320 each

13 of Speco CVC 650 IRVF Dome Wall Camera Mount, $80 each

13 of Speco CVC 6700, $320 each

12 of Everfocus EPTZ 1000, $1,560 each

12 of Everfocus EPTZ 1000 Wall Camera Mount, $104 each

5 of Speco CVC - 60, $336 each (for elevators)

 

I realize that without seeing a plan of our four-acre property, no one can determine if the quantities and types of cameras are correct. I am seeking general comments about the quality of the cameras. I am concerned that they are possibly not so great. I have tried to find discussions about speco on this and other forums but I can't see to find any. I would be eager to hear recommendations for other camera brands.

 

I would like to install some PTZ cameras that automaticallly track people that come into the cameras view. For the most vulnerable parts of our property, I feel that having the cameras automatically detect intruders without relying on our guards to catch the intruder on camera is ideal. Our guards try hard, but they can get distracted doing other things. How much would a camera that auto-detects\auto-track costs? I think about $5,000 a PTZ camera, but I am not sure. I looked at http://www.ioimage.com/ I am not sure if this type of software is needed in additional to cameras with autonomous tracking capability or if autonomous tracking ability is already active in such a camera without the need for additional software.

 

Is there some general standard for what percentage of security system cost are cameras, cabling, labor, etc. The intial bid breaks down costs to

 

Computers, DVRs, etc., $35,040, 10% of total cost

Labor $95,665, 28% of total cost

Cabling-Misc, $68,800 20% of total cost

Hardware, $71,367, 21% of total cost (cameras, access control system components, etc.)

Conduit, $75,000, 22% of total

 

Notes;

-- The wiring for our current security system is not run in conduit. We have budgeted $75,000 for conduit installation. Hopefully, we will come in way under budget

-- Labor and Cabling Misc. - I am going to meet with the security company and clarify these costs. I am ver familiar with cabling office towers and these number seem high. The combined labor and cabling costs seem VERy high to me. I welcome comments on this.

 

Thank you very much.

Robert

[tomcctv 190]

the speco cameras are re named. and are a bit out dated as the company released new models over 12 months ago. they seem to be to many dome cameras which will only give you 10 to 15m ir lighting at night. and you dont mention any lighting for your ptz cameras Everfocus are a very good camera but without lighting at night.

 

is your price $350.000 in cluding the $75.000 for conduit work and also what dvr will thay be installing. i am a little suprised for the size of your system that they have not gone ip or at leased hybrid to expand at a later date

[rory 0]

Sounds like an alarm or access control company quoted those cameras, I would get a quote on the CCTV from someone that does just that, or at least that can show some decent knowledge or experience in that area, this size a job is not for a beginner, give it to someone that has been in the CCTV industry for some time, as there are many struggling to find jobs right now. If these guys are it, and you are happy with them, then discuss it further and see if you can get some other options.

 

Not that the brand of camera are horrible (personally I wouldnt go near them again), but they are exactly what is pushed on people that dont know what brand to quote, in the South Florida Area - i know this as im in the Bahamas and its the same stuff the Miami distributors push on alarm etc dealers installers down here. When I go looking to buy its me telling them what I want, if they dont have it, I go elsewhere. In other words, the cameras quoted to you are nothing special, but its up to you. See this link for what basic built in IR like that sees, and in this case I use 3 sources of IR to compare, and its a bullet camera with more IR then most domes have: http://www.cctvfootage.com/video/Day-Night-IR-Bullet-with-Extra .Its just an example, as the actual product you are quoted can differ. If its mounted up high like on a pole or even high on a building, the IR is next to useless, you would need a high powered IR like the Extreme CCTV (now Bosch) gear, and those are very expensive, or even some high powered OEM gear, but either way it would have to be extra IR.

 

Basically, get some more quotes. the DVR cost seems extremely overpriced for one thing. Maybe ask for your electrician to do the wiring, and have that quoted separately also, even if only to compare.

 

I personally dont want to suggest products, but you should do some browsing on this forum for what brands are popular. we dont know enough about the property or application to give any really detailed suggestions either. Im with Tom though, see if you cant get some other options, especially for the wiring.

[tomcctv 190]

i have just done a full costing on all the cameras you have listed and i would question the price and also requst a full spec sheet. the first problem i see is a cctv company would not use a bullit camera in a elevator. this should be a vandal dome or a purpose elevator camera. also your ptz cameras are only 18x zoom. which for the area seem to have a small zoom. also you have not put in if they are using redwall sensors for your ptz which is a major piece of kit with using so many ptz. i am with rory on get another quote because the cameras you have quoted are over 3 years old and i know sunkwang or as called now huviron have stoped making one of the cameras listed

[thewireguys 3]

For that kind of money I would have liked to see better cameras, hybrid recording device and/or megapixel cameras. What requirements did you give the company that gave you this quote? Do you know what access control system they quoted you? Could you PM me a Google image of the property you are trying to protect.

[MiamiRob 0]

Tomcctv,

 

Would the lighting for the Everfocus come from some attachment to the camera or some special lens or do you mean lights installed in the area that the camera protects?

 

If the dome cameras as inside where there are lights, will they be okay at night?

 

The $350,000 includes the conduit.

 

The DVRs that they will be installing are three: EPRA1603 1 TB, $3,520 each

Three Toshiba 22” color CCTV monitors, $880 each

Three EKB 500 Controllers $880 each

To install this, they have quoted 120 hours of labor at $95\hour

They have quoted 1 wire\misc $4,000 (I don’t understand what this cost includes . Obviously, I will get more info.)

Total cost for this work is $31,240

 

What is the advantage of IP and hybrid? I mentioned that and the company said that it would be much more expensive. They talked almost as if it would be cost prohibitive and would not used in this type of install. I understand the concept of IP addressing and IP devices on a network from my work with computer networks but I am not clear on how IP works in a security system. (I will search in Google and read about it after I submit this.)

 

Thank you for the advice about the camera pricing and ages. I will look into that.

 

Why is a bullet camera not good in an elevator? Is it because it could easily get damaged and the camera should be installed in a housing like the vandal dome?

 

One of the companies from which we receied quotes said that they were only quoting 18x zoom because while our property is large, most of the cameras are not positioned in locations that need stronger zooms. How far a distance would a 18x zoom be appropriate? What distance would you suggest would start to require a stronger zoom?

 

I sincerely appreciate your time and help.

 

Rob

[MiamiRob 0]

Thewireguys,

 

Regarding the specs, about three years ago, we paid a security consultant to create a detailed plan for the building. The master project under which this work is being done was delayed so we did not use the plans until now. The consultant is no longer involved because he is very ill and also because his contract ended years ago when he gave us the plans. We have many pages of architectural plans with all the details of where door access controls should be installed, where all the cameras should be placed, etc. There were also beams that ran along the top of the fences to detect intruders. All the security companies giving us quotes said that the plans showed too much security for a condo. They all said that we did not need beams on top of our fences and they said that we did not need all the cameras that the security plans show.

 

The access control is called “Community Secure”. In the design from the security consultant, a system called “CondoPlex” is specified. However, the security company said that we could save money by using “Community Secure.”

 

The cameras in the plans from the security consultant were:

Vehicle entry\exit and garage - Panasonic CW244 Vandal Dome, $656

 

License plates - Panasonic CW 474 AS, $925 with an additional $250 for the camera mount

 

Lobbies and Foyers – Panasonic CF282, $394 with a $250 mounts

 

Panasonic CW964 Vandal Outdoor PTZ, $3,849 with $70 pole mount

 

Tennis courts – Panasonic CP484 Day night, $677

 

--------

Four Panasonic WJD316A10 Harddrive digital recorders costing 8,480 each were original specified by the design engineer when he did our master plan.

 

Thank you very much for helping me out. Rob

[thewireguys 3]

Tomcctv,

 

Would the lighting for the Everfocus come from some attachment to the camera or some special lens or do you mean lights installed in the area that the camera protects?

 

If the dome cameras as inside where there are lights, will they be okay at night?

 

The $350,000 includes the conduit.

 

The DVRs that they will be installing are three: EPRA1603 1 TB, $3,520 each

Three Toshiba 22” color CCTV monitors, $880 each

Three EKB 500 Controllers $880 each

To install this, they have quoted 120 hours of labor at $95\hour

They have quoted 1 wire\misc $4,000 (I don’t understand what this cost includes . Obviously, I will get more info.)

Total cost for this work is $31,240

 

What is the advantage of IP and hybrid? I mentioned that and the company said that it would be much more expensive. They talked almost as if it would be cost prohibitive and would not used in this type of install. I understand the concept of IP addressing and IP devices on a network from my work with computer networks but I am not clear on how IP works in a security system. (I will search in Google and read about it after I submit this.)

 

Thank you for the advice about the camera pricing and ages. I will look into that.

 

Why is a bullet camera not good in an elevator? Is it because it could easily get damaged and the camera should be installed in a housing like the vandal dome?

 

One of the companies from which we receied quotes said that they were only quoting 18x zoom because while our property is large, most of the cameras are not positioned in locations that need stronger zooms. How far a distance would a 18x zoom be appropriate? What distance would you suggest would start to require a stronger zoom?

 

I sincerely appreciate your time and help.

 

Rob

 

 

Just to make sure I counted correctly but you have 52 cameras and only 48 channels to record on.

[MiamiRob 0]

tomcctv,

 

Thanks for catching the camera count issue. I will look into it.

 

In general, do these costs seem in a normal rangge? I feel that the labor and cabling costs are ready up there at almost 50% of the total price.

 

Computers, DVRs, etc., $35,040, 10% of total cost

Labor $95,665, 28% of total cost

Cabling-Misc, $68,800 20% of total cost

Hardware, $71,367, 21% of total cost

Conduit, $75,000, 22% of total

 

Thanks,

Rob

[rory 0]

i dont know about you but I could retire off that labour

 

cost is extremely high but we dont know what the application is exactly. Is this going to take them 1 year or more to complete? Everything seems high, even for Bahamian standards, and we pay 45% Customs on the hardware and cost of living is almost 3 times that of South Florida. But as mentioned, would need more info, what kind of warranty are they supplying, perhaps just ask for a basic warranty and then the manufacturer warranty after that. They could have added a big warranty of their own onto it which could raise the price also.

[MiamiRob 0]

Rory,

 

The proposal has an "important exclusions" section that contains the following info:

 

Does not include permit fees

Does not include conduit, pull strings, power, gutters, plywood, or concrete

Does not include bonding fees, or extra insurance requirements

Does not include door hardware unless where noted

Must coordinate with elevator company

Elevator company to provide hanging cables with necessary data, video, audio

Elevator company to provide controller interface and tie-in

Electrician to help interface to elevator company and assist in elevator machine rooms

Millwork for desk provided by other and built by other--will help coordinate drawings (note to Rory: this is security desk in lobby)

All unit work needs coordination with painter, drywaller, and elec. (all conduit by other)

Includes 1 year warranty on parts and labor

Extra warrant can be purchased on service contract for extended warranty

Signed and sealed drawings if required by the city to be billed to owner

Does not include bonding fees or extra insurance requirements

Does not include signal modification or equipment to view cameras on cable channels

Does not include any items not listed in above proposal

 

----

Regarding the length of the job, it will not last a year, we hope to have all the work done by early summer so as soon as some areas of construction are complete, the new camera system and access control system will be installed. The work is to be done quickly. It should take a month at most, I would think.

 

What is the markup on equipment that is generally considered to be acceptable in the security business. When I have cabling companies do work for computer networks installations, we typically agree to add 20% on to wholesale cost of all cabling, tech plates, etc. When we buy Cisco networking equipment, HP servers or workstations, etc., we buy that based on huge corporately negotiated pricing so I do not know the markup. However, if I was to have a company install any security equipment at my work, we would probably work off the cost plus 20 percent as well. As you realize, the quote for my condo building is adding a lot more than 20%. And the cabling costs just do not make sense to me.

 

I certainly do not want anything on the cheap and I am more than willling to pay the security company for their experitise and hard work. However, I do not want to be charged excessive pricies and that is what is happening now. We received three quotes from three security companies and all the pricing was in the same range. But all that means is that the quotes were all too high.

 

I meet with the security company today. I am going to ask them to get pricing on better cameras and discuss the markup so that, moving forward, the cost markup is clear to all. I am also going ot ask them to provide much more detail on their cabling quote and on their wiring\misc. quote. I don't understand how they can, in just one section of the bid, charge $11,000 for cabling\misc when, if I were doing this system at work, would expect to pay less than $200 for a reel of a thousand feet of cable. (There are additional cabling costs in other parts of the bid so the $11,000 is just a start.)

 

It is very nice of you to take the time to respond to my questions. The information that you and others on this Board are providing is a huge help to me.

 

Rob

[destro_23 0]

First i have to say you came to the right place.. the guys on this board really know what they are doing. Second... Anyone else wanna shoot down to florida for a month? and do this job LoL

 

i know right now there are a LOT of electricians out of work.. why not ask for detailed wiring specs and get a few quotes from electricians you can def beat them up in price.. and try and use Union Electricians as they gurantee their work(it'll still be cheaper then the cctv guys) is it all going to be cat5? for future "upgrade-ability" or all coax?

 

As far as the DVRs go.. $35k seems way to much.. i'm a software engineer by trade and have put up a few very small systems in my restaurants. so i'm very limited in my knowledge.. But i know of trading systems with hi availability and redundant that are much less.

 

Rory Question: For this large scale system i'm guessing 3 DVR's and 2 extra regular computers for the "monitoring station"

Edited January 25, 2010 by Guest

[cglaeser 0]

Get referrals for installations of similar size and scope. Generally, I do phone interviews with previous customers, but for a job of this size, I would try and actually meet with at least one customer and ask to see the install. If they can't give several referrals for installs with forty or more cameras, I would walk away.

 

Best,

Christopher

[MiamiRob 0]

can analog cameras run over cat5e or do analog cameras need siamese cable? In that we are going to install completely new conduit and run all new cable, we should be installing an IP or hybrid system, right? Installing an analog system would not be that way to go, would it?

 

thanks,

Rob

[destro_23 0]

can analog cameras run over cat5e or do analog cameras need siamese cable? In that we are going to install completely new conduit and run all new cable, we should be installing an IP or hybrid system, right? Installing an analog system would not be that way to go, would it?

 

thanks,

Rob

 

Yes they can.. and for shorter runs 700' and less the cat5 can hold video and power in same line. just needs a little adapter for analogue cameras. But i've never done very large scale systems so maybe the simeesse is better.

 

either way i say also get a quote from a few good local union electricians.. might save you about $40-50k that is most of the work..

Edited January 25, 2010 by Guest

[cglaeser 0]

can analog cameras run over cat5e

 

Yes.

 

Installing an analog system would not be that way to go, would it?

 

Depends. Analog cameras typically have fewer pixels than IP cameras, and fewer pixels means larger pixels for the same sensor size, and larger pixels typically means better low light performance, everything else being equal. The best solution really depends on the requirements and budget.

 

Best,

Christopher

[MiamiRob 0]

In a hybrid system, I understand that there are IP and analog devices. However, I am not clear what happens on the head end. Is the DVR different for a hybrid system? Is a hybrid system DVR able to accept both analog and IP connections? What would be the disadvantage of installing a hybrid system if it can do both analog and IP?

 

Rob

[cglaeser 0]

Is the DVR different for a hybrid system? Is a hybrid system DVR able to accept both analog and IP connections?

 

Yes and yes. A hybrid DVR connects to the analog cameras via input of a video signal, and connects to the IP cameras via the LAN.

 

Best,

Christopher

[destro_23 0]

In a hybrid system, I understand that there are IP and analog devices. However, I am not clear what happens on the head end. Is the DVR different for a hybrid system? Is a hybrid system DVR able to accept both analog and IP connections? What would be the disadvantage of installing a hybrid system if it can do both analog and IP?

 

Rob

 

to extremely simplify it.. almost all newer systems are hybrid's anyway. All are just a high end PC/rackmount with a DVR card that runs the cameras/software with analogue plugs in the back. And the IP cameras will have to be plugged into a private network(easier) that the DVR is also conected to. And the other cameras are just wired directly to the back of the DVR

 

Since almost all dvr companies have compatibility for IP cameras now.. IP camera support is built into the analogue system anyway.

[MiamiRob 0]

Well, I just met with the security company to try to work out final pricing and discuss the system. Here are some things that they said:

 

They are going to run all coax and if they install an Cat5e camera they will use balans to convert to Cat5e cable to connect to the camera. They said that the signal travels better over coax and that in general coax is just a better cable choice that Cat5e. I asked them why if, in the future we go to all IP and could just clip in RJ-45 connectors we should have to deal with baluns. They again said that coax is a better conductor of the video signal.

 

Someone asked them about using plenum (not sure if it was for coax or cat5e) and they said that plenum can hurt the signal and that unless fire code required it, they do not use plenum because of cost and signal problems.

 

They said that they calculate six man-hours at $95 an hour to install every camera, door card reader, etc. The said that they use the 6 hour\$95 an hour for all their installations. That they have found that 6 hours is what it takes to install each device including cable pull, installation and configuration. That seems incredibly high to me. They said that some types of cameras cost more to install because they are technically more complex. They were referring to cameras with video analytics. (The 6 x $95 hour does not include the cost of installing the conduit. That cost is separate.)

 

They said that for $378,000 (earlier wrote we were spending $358,000. that was incorrect. It is $378k.) Speco fixed cameras are all that can be included and that any better cameras would cost more.

 

They said that analog is best for our condo and that IP systems create too much traffic and that we would have to add huge amounts of disk storage to handle the IP images. That is not correct is it, can't the fps or quality be cistomized fo reach camera on an IP system?

 

I welcome everyone's thoughts. I am feeling furstrated and that we are walking into paying far too much for what we are getting.

 

To save money in conduit and cabling is it possible to design an IP security system in the same way that a computer network would be designed. By that I mean that we have equipment at the head end to which some cameras connect and then install a switch in a building, say the clubhouse and then run all cameras from the pool deck and the tennis courts to that switch. Then we connect that switch to the headend switch\equipment using TP or fiber. Or would the conduit costs and cabling saved not be worth the trouble. I guess I am thinking of designing the system with the various switches around the property being analagous to floor switches in an office tower that connect back to the main tech room on another floor.

 

Rob

[cglaeser 0]

They are going to run all coax and if they install an Cat5e camera they will use balans to convert to Cat5e cable to connect to the camera. They said that the signal travels better over coax and that in general coax is just a better cable choice that Cat5e. I asked them why if, in the future we go to all IP and could just clip in RJ-45 connectors we should have to deal with baluns. They again said that coax is a better conductor of the video signal.

 

I hope you heard this wrong. They will run all Cat5e and convert coax to Cat5e, right?

 

Best,

Christopher

[rory 0]

im busy right now but i may reply more later .. but quick question, what are the distances of the cable runs? If long runs, did they quote you with amplifiers, or are they going to use Fiber?

[MiamiRob 0]

They are going to run all coax and if they install an Cat5e camera they will use balans to convert to Cat5e cable to connect to the camera. They said that the signal travels better over coax and that in general coax is just a better cable choice that Cat5e. I asked them why if, in the future we go to all IP and could just clip in RJ-45 connectors we should have to deal with baluns. They again said that coax is a better conductor of the video signal.

 

I hope you heard this wrong. They will run all Cat5e and convert coax to Cat5e, right?

 

Best,

Christopher

 

Christopher,

 

I didn't hear it wrong. They said that they are going to run coax cable in all the conduits. If they need to convert to Cat 5e\RJ-45 to connect to a camera, they will use a balan to convert to Cat5e\RJ-45 in the last foot before the cable connects to the camera. They said that the primary cable should be coax because it carries a signal better. By you response, I assume that running coax is not how it should be done and that Cat5e should be the cabling run in the conduits.

 

Why do you think that they want to run coax? Why they not want to run cat5e?

 

Rob

 

Rob

[cglaeser 0]

They said that the primary cable should be coax because it carries a signal better.

 

What are the distances to the cameras?

 

Best,

Christopher

[thewireguys 3]

Well, I just met with the security company to try to work out final pricing and discuss the system. Here are some things that they said:

 

They are going to run all coax and if they install an Cat5e camera they will use balans to convert to Cat5e cable to connect to the camera. They said that the signal travels better over coax and that in general coax is just a better cable choice that Cat5e. I asked them why if, in the future we go to all IP and could just clip in RJ-45 connectors we should have to deal with baluns. They again said that coax is a better conductor of the video signal.

 

Someone asked them about using plenum (not sure if it was for coax or cat5e) and they said that plenum can hurt the signal and that unless fire code required it, they do not use plenum because of cost and signal problems.

 

They said that they calculate six man-hours at $95 an hour to install every camera, door card reader, etc. The said that they use the 6 hour\$95 an hour for all their installations. That they have found that 6 hours is what it takes to install each device including cable pull, installation and configuration. That seems incredibly high to me. They said that some types of cameras cost more to install because they are technically more complex. They were referring to cameras with video analytics. (The 6 x $95 hour does not include the cost of installing the conduit. That cost is separate.)

 

They said that for $378,000 (earlier wrote we were spending $358,000. that was incorrect. It is $378k.) Speco fixed cameras are all that can be included and that any better cameras would cost more.

 

They said that analog is best for our condo and that IP systems create too much traffic and that we would have to add huge amounts of disk storage to handle the IP images. That is not correct is it, can't the fps or quality be cistomized fo reach camera on an IP system?

 

That is absolutely not true. You hear stuff like this from companies that have no clue how to install IP systems. With a Hybrid system you could use Megapixel cameras to cover large areas and you could reduce your camera count which could reduce your camera and cabling cost. 50 cameras is not going to cause traffic issue if the net work is designed correctly. How many doors are you controlling? Did you ask them about the camera count and DVR channels?

Edited January 26, 2010 by Guest