Requesting Comments on Security Cameras for Condo

[rory 0]

I love watching you guys work... but isn't this kind of a "another name for the nick name of Richard-block" to a fellow CCTV company?

 

The quote just doesnt sound right, we may be missing some info though, but we can only go by what he is telling us. The equipment alone makes me think they were just told what to sell by their distributor, probably ADI or Silmar. Could be totally wrong, but we are not here to just sit back and say nothing so ...

[MiamiRob 0]

I just read all the posts from tonight. The expertise on this forum is just amazing. I am learning so much and realizing that a security system done well involves tremendous planning and thought.

 

I was going through the quote again tonight and I realized that I have asked about access control equipment costs. They are quoting many of the following pieces of equipment. They do not list a brand:

Card Reader $320 each

DCD Board $440 each

Door ajar contacts $16 each

Duress Alarm $440 each

Door hardware MAG motion and button $1040

Door Hardware - ELEC - Egress hardware and hinge $1040

 

Is this pricing high as well? From the searching I did on the web, it seems that they are making a lot of money on these items.

 

For the gate entry, we want to use Sunpass so they are installing 2 Transcore Encompass Readers for $5,500 each. I think that they are making a couple of thousand on each of those two devices.

 

Do security companies work off cost-plus pricing for equipment, door hardware, etc? It would be a lot easier for me to know that if I want camera that cost xx that I would pay xx times 20% rather than having to go through some bargaining session.

 

I am going to read all the posts in the morning. and try to decide how to move forward. I am very interested in using video analytics on our perimeter, but not many companies seem to know much about that.

 

Rob

[MiamiRob 0]

Ask them:

 

1-Is the CVC-6700 a high res camera - if they say yes you know they are full of it. While on that camera, should ask them why they are quoting you a cheap 1/4" low res camera. Additionally as it is has a sunshield it is obviously going outside, if not then why they are quoting a color bullet camera with a sun shield (there are many other choices), and if going outside, will there be full light at night - otherwise it wont see anything as going by the specs it has 1 lux color and needs daylight type lighting.

 

Rory,

 

This is great info. I will definitely ask them the questions. Thank you VERY much.

Rob

[MiamiRob 0]

Hello!

Will the garage have license plate recognition releasing gates?

 

Scorpion,

 

Do you mean that the camera recognizes the license plate and compares it to plates in a datebase and based on a match, the gate opens? If that is how this works, how reliable is this type of system? Can such a system convert the license plate info into text so that the info can be fed into a software program and be used with other data?

 

Thanks,

Rob

[rory 0]

Rory,

 

This is great info. I will definitely ask them the questions. Thank you VERY much.

Rob

 

Also ask them if they have ever used these cameras.

Just so you know, these are the main specs from the CVC-6700 PDF:

 

Resolution - 420 TV Line

Minimum Illumination 1 Lux F 1.2

Image Pick-Up Device - Transfer CCD 1/4” Format

No. of Pixels - 510 (H) x 492 (V)

[rory 0]

 

Scorpion,

 

Do you mean that the camera recognizes the license plate and compares it to plates in a datebase and based on a match, the gate opens? If that is how this works, how reliable is this type of system? Can such a system convert the license plate info into text so that the info can be fed into a software program and be used with other data?

 

Thanks,

Rob

 

Im not too familiar with that, but here is an example from one particular DVR company:

http://www.geovision.com.tw/english/3_1.asp?stable1=Pro&sfiled=pgid&pno=28

 

Examples of other features that come with DVRs:

http://www.geovision.com.tw/english/3_1.asp?stable1=Pro&sfiled=pgid&pno=33

http://www.geovision.com.tw/english/3_1.asp?stable1=Pro&sfiled=pgid&pno=32

http://www.geovision.com.tw/english/3_1.asp?stable1=Pro&sfiled=pgid&pno=34

http://www.geovision.com.tw/english/product/GV-SystemV8300_Feature.htm

 

Other DVRs will have similar if not the same or even more features.

BUT, big but, basic DVRs especially the lower end stand alones, typically wont have anything close to the features available in the links above.

[Soundy 1]

I have read people comment on the use of coax versus cat5e. I am embarassed to say that I am not yet clear on which type of cable everyone feels should be run. So I hope that everyone will not mind if I re-ask some questions in an effort to understand the cabling type...

 

Can IP cameras run over coax? The security company says that using coax for IP cameras is fine and that balans are just need to switch from coax to cat5e. I work with large computer networks and we always try to minimize the number of connection in cable runs. Connectors, patch panels, etc. are all sources of potential problems. A straight cable run is always best. I don't understand why they would push coax and say that adding a balan is as good as a single cat5e cable.

 

Right now, all the cameras that the company is suggesting we install are analog. They said that the cameras could run over cat5e but that the signal would not be as clear as over coax. Is that true? Does cate5e not work well with analog cameras?

 

Is it possible that the cameras they want to use only have coax connectors on the back and that is why they are pushing coax?

 

In that I work with computer networks, I would very used to cat5e and cat6 cable and coax seems thick and not as easy to work with. I would think that it would be better to go with cat5e. However, the security company seems very opposed to even considering the idea of cat5e and seems set on coax. They base their decision on their belief that coax carries a better signal.

 

I again want to thank all of you for your expert advice.

 

Rob

 

Wow, I skip out for a couple days and the thread explodes

 

Rob, IP cameras CAN run over coax, using devices like Veracity HighWires, but that will add substantially to the cost, as they retail for probably around $500-$600/pair. On the other hand, analog video will run nicely over Cat5e using baluns... I've had no signal problems with even cheap ones (the main thing I find, as they get cheaper, is that they're more likely to have intermittent connectors or other such physical issues).

 

Unfortunately, where you DO run into problems with baluns, is when you're using cheap 12VDC-powered cameras that use a common power and video ground - the baluns introduce substantially more length to the video line and once you get two or more cameras connected to a common power supply, you get ground loops and interference.

 

The one sure cure for this is to use 24VAC cameras when you're using baluns... and that probably doesn't apply to most of the cameras these guys are recommending. If they've been using them with baluns, that would explain why they think baluns-over-UTP gives poor signal.

 

As far as your previous question (a couple pages back) about the length of ethernet runs, the spec for Cat5e is 100m, which works out to about 330'. Cat6 will, I believe, approximately double that.

 

The other thing to take into account is that Cat5e is currently the same price as, or cheaper than, coax... and since you can run power over the Cat5e as well (plus control, if you have PTZs), you don't need to run power alongside the coax, which saves some money. Now that's somewhat offset by the cost of the baluns, but ultimately they should come up pretty close to the same price either way.

 

In your case, I would definitely recommend going with Cat5e over coax... IF the cameras are all 24VAC-powered (I haven't tested it in "lab" conditions, but I've noticed that dual-power 12VDC/24VAC cameras don't seem to have the ground-loop issue when powered with 12VDC; I attribute this to the power supply isolating the power and video grounds from each other). 24VAC also has the advantage of having less than half the current draw of 12VDC, and thus less voltage drop over longer runs, especially with the thinner 24ga. wires in Cat5e.

 

We've recently done a bunch of upgrades and new installs for a major client, and have pretty much standardized on all-Cat5e for their analog cameras. Those cameras are CNB domes, with Panasonic CW484s for front-door ID shots; all are 12DC/24AC dual-powered, all are running on 24VAC, and there are NO noise or interference issues. All these sites also have 3-5 IP cameras (IQA11 1.3MP domes) and are powered by PoE; they love the megapixel cams in general and will eventually want to start replacing the analog cameras with them, so having the Cat5e in place is just future-proofing the job.

[rory 0]

Its important to note i had issues with well known american made baluns and expensive brand name 24VAC box cameras at short 150' runs, so although it is probably rare these days, there is always that "chance". Also, not all cameras can be powered over cat5, one prime example is the EX82 from Extreme CCTV (Bosch), at 50' it fails at night even with power tripled up. But the 24VAC non high power IR cameras probably work fine, in fact I have a 10' piece of cat5 spliced on the end of BNC to my personal 12VDC IR bullets (less then 400ma current draw with IR on) now with no image problems (ran out of coax when moving them and had to extend the cable with what i had lying around ). I think the baluns these days are probably alot better then the ones I had issues with several years ago.

 

So yeah Soundy is pretty much correct

Maybe Soundy can recommend the baluns he uses?

[thewireguys 3]

 

As far as your previous question (a couple pages back) about the length of ethernet runs, the spec for Cat5e is 100m, which works out to about 330'. Cat6 will, I believe, approximately double that.

 

Negative....... running cat6 and cat6a does NOT increase the distance above 100m....... Also keep in mind the 100m is the TOTAL distance including patch cables not just the horizontal cabling.

[C.O.P. 0]

Do security companies work off cost-plus pricing for equipment, door hardware, etc? It would be a lot easier for me to know that if I want camera that cost xx that I would pay xx times 20% rather than having to go through some bargaining session.

 

I RARELY use contractors that can't/won't give me below retail cost on supplies and equipment. If they get a 20% discount and then mark it back up 20% fine, as long as it's still less than I'd pay retail.

 

Question on the cable runs... when you guys are talking about run lengths, do you automatically assume there are verticle and horizontal components to the run? The idea being a camera 25 feet away may require 50ft+ to get to the recorder if you have to go up and down walls?

[Soundy 1]

Maybe Soundy can recommend the baluns he uses?

 

I mostly like the GVI and NVT tool-less units, although we use the MuxLab ones for VGA feeds (and the component versions have been handy in the past for multiple cameras on one line). I like the ones with a small body and BNC tail for their ability to fit inside camera backboxes.

[MiamiRob 0]

The other thing to take into account is that Cat5e is currently the same price as, or cheaper than, coax... and since you can run power over the Cat5e as well (plus control, if you have PTZs), you don't need to run power alongside the coax, which saves some money. Now that's somewhat offset by the cost of the baluns, but ultimately they should come up pretty close to the same price either way.

 

Thanks for this great info.

 

So if coax is used PTZ cameras need a separate cable run (siamese cable?) for power or an electrical plug near the camera? But if cat5e is used, PTZ camera can get their power over the same cat5e cable over which the camera transmits video? Is this true for most PTZ cameras for just for some PTZs?

 

How much more expensive are 24VAC cameras than 12VAC? Is the price different significant?

 

Would each camera in a system typically have its own power supply in the main wiring room or is it possible for multiple cameras to share power supplies?

 

Rob

[MiamiRob 0]

I think the baluns these days are probably alot better then the ones I had issues with several years ago.

 

So yeah Soundy is pretty much correct

Maybe Soundy can recommend the baluns he uses?

 

 

So the way that the connection works is that cate5e extends from the head-end through the conduit and then just before the cate5e connects to the cameras, an RJ-45 connector is inserted in a balun and then a coax connector connects the other side of the balun to the camera, right?

 

How long would the piece of coax typically be between the camera and balun? Is the balun hidden in the conduit or if one is looking at the camera mounted on the side of the building outside is the balun visible? (I guess what I am asking is how is the balun protected from the weather.) This seems like sort of a clunky connection but based on what I have read in this thread, I guess that most cameras don’t have RJ-45 adapters built-in so the balun-to-coax connection is necessary.

 

In theory for, say a 50m run of cable, could cat5e be substituted for coax and, using a balun the camera, would work just fine?

 

Does plenum in any way negatively impact the performance of cat5e cable? Does plenum degrade the video signal?

 

Rob

[Soundy 1]

The other thing to take into account is that Cat5e is currently the same price as, or cheaper than, coax... and since you can run power over the Cat5e as well (plus control, if you have PTZs), you don't need to run power alongside the coax, which saves some money. Now that's somewhat offset by the cost of the baluns, but ultimately they should come up pretty close to the same price either way.

 

Thanks for this great info.

 

So if coax is used PTZ cameras need a separate cable run (siamese cable?) for power or an electrical plug near the camera? But if cat5e is used, PTZ camera can get their power over the same cat5e cable over which the camera transmits video? Is this true for most PTZ cameras for just for some PTZs?

 

It would mainly depend on the camera's power needs and the length of the run, but yes, most cameras can happily be powered over the Cat5e. This is true of both fixed and PTZ cameras. With "standard" wiring though, PTZ also needs an additional pair for its control signal.

 

How much more expensive are 24VAC cameras than 12VAC? Is the price different significant?

 

I've never done a direct comparison. There are 12VDC-only cameras that are more expensive than "similar" 24VAC or dual-voltage cameras, that are better in other areas (and sometimes just more expensive because of a brand name). There really SHOULDN'T be a significant difference - the addition of a rectifier and voltage regulator technically shouldn't add more than five bucks to the manufacturer's cost of a camera, although it does require a bit more space, so you won't find them in very small designs.

 

Would each camera in a system typically have its own power supply in the main wiring room or is it possible for multiple cameras to share power supplies?

 

The most common way is for all the cameras to share one central power supply, preferably with individually fused outputs, but multiple central supplies can also be used, or even a separate "local" supply for some or all cameras. There's no hard and fast rule as to how it HAS to be done, though - sometimes some creativity is needed just to make things work. A central supply is done mostly for convenience and ease of maintenance.

[Soundy 1]

I think the baluns these days are probably alot better then the ones I had issues with several years ago.

 

So yeah Soundy is pretty much correct

Maybe Soundy can recommend the baluns he uses?

 

 

So the way that the connection works is that cate5e extends from the head-end through the conduit and then just before the cate5e connects to the cameras, an RJ-45 connector is inserted in a balun and then a coax connector connects the other side of the balun to the camera, right?

 

Correct. Some baluns have an RJ45 jack and split out wire tails for other things like power, control, or audio, in addition to a BNC for video... others simply have a pair of screw or snap-down terminals where you connect one pair of wires from the Cat5e; you then split out the power/control/audio from the Cat5e jacket yourself.

 

How long would the piece of coax typically be between the camera and balun? Is the balun hidden in the conduit or if one is looking at the camera mounted on the side of the building outside is the balun visible? (I guess what I am asking is how is the balun protected from the weather.) This seems like sort of a clunky connection but based on what I have read in this thread, I guess that most cameras don’t have RJ-45 adapters built-in so the balun-to-coax connection is necessary.

 

This all depends entirely on the camera, the balun, and how the installation is done. You could run to a sealed junction box, put the balun in that, then run coax and 18/2 from there to the camera. Some domes have sealed back-boxes with enough room for a balun inside. With box cameras, you can use environmental housings that usually have lots of room for the baluns to reside.

 

In theory for, say a 50m run of cable, could cat5e be substituted for coax and, using a balun the camera, would work just fine?

 

In theory... and in practice. In fact, typical passive baluns will generally let you run video over twisted pair for upwards of 1000'. Active baluns can extend that to half a mile or more.

 

Does plenum in any way negatively impact the performance of cat5e cable? Does plenum degrade the video signal?

 

Not that I've ever seen... with UTP or coax. Plenum cable (FT-6 rated) has an outer jacket with a higher fire-time (FT) rating (meaning it takes longer to burn through when exposed to direct flame); there's no reason the cable's internal construction would be different from riser (FT-4) cable. The main drawbacks to it are that the jacket tends to be stiffer, which makes it harder to work with sometimes; the jacket tends to be a lot thinner, at least for coax, which makes some connectors not fit it well; and mostly, it tends to be two to three times the price of riser cable.

 

Ultimately, the use of plenum cable will depend on your local electrical codes. Usually, it's only needed for cable run through a plenum airspace (where the return air for the HVAC system runs through open ceiling areas) over a certain distance (which will be stated in code). If the building has ducted air returns, then it doesn't have plenum airspace, and you don't need plenum cable. If the cable is in metal conduit, it doesn't need to be plenum rated. If you do need to run through plenum, your code will probably allow up to 3m/10ft of non-plenum cable - this allows for "jumpers" from conduit to camera without needing to enclose the entire length.

[MiamiRob 0]

I have spent a few hours tonight re-reading everyone's posts and researching the info that you have all so generously provided. I realized that I have been so focused on hardware that I have forgotten about the software.

 

How is the software used to control camera systems chosen? Is the software provided by the camera manufacturer or is there some "gold standard" of camera management\control software? I general, what should I look out for in terms of preventing inadequate software from being installed in our building?

 

Regarding, Access Control software is that vendor dependent or is there some software that is normally considered the best to have? What functionality would great AC software provide that low-end AC software would not?

 

In the buildings I toured while looking at security systems, the access control software and the camera software seemed to be basically separate. In other words, I could not pull up a fob number or person assigned to the fob and have the system show me each door they had opened with the fob and just click on the screen and see the picture of the person opening the door. I would have had to note the time the fob opened the door and then use the camera software of search to that time and camera to find that image. I was hoping for something more integrated.

 

For the main driveway, I would like a camera to read a license plate and input the license plate number into a database. The database would associate the license plate with the resident that he or she is visiting and would retain that information so that next time when the car pulled into the driveway, the guards could call the driver by name. The system would also have a camera at the exit that would again scan the license plate to let the database know that they care had left our property. Using the data retained over time, traffic patterns (peak, off-peak) would easily be known.Does any software like this exist?

 

Thanks,

Rob

[cglaeser 0]

For the main driveway, I would like a camera to read a license plate and input the license plate number into a database. The database would associate the license plate with the resident that he or she is visiting and would retain that information so that next time when the car pulled into the driveway, the guards could call the driver by name. The system would also have a camera at the exit that would again scan the license plate to let the database know that they care had left our property. Using the data retained over time, traffic patterns (peak, off-peak) would easily be known.Does any software like this exist?

 

There are turnkey systems that do most, possibly all, of this. Rayled is one system to investigate. Don't think it does plate recognition or database queries, but perhaps a third party developer has. See http://www.rayled.com/voyager-2-integrated-number-plate-capture-camera.html

 

One thing I would not do is try to build your own. Go with a turnkey system. Kick the tires and make sure it really works. They are not cheap, but should easily fit the budget you are discussing.

 

Best,

Christopher

 

Edit: I have the Rayled Raymax Fusion 50 IR. As anyone on this forum will tell you, their products are top of the line. FWIW.

[rory 0]

For the main driveway, I would like a camera to read a license plate and input the license plate number into a database. The database would associate the license plate with the resident that he or she is visiting and would retain that information so that next time when the car pulled into the driveway, the guards could call the driver by name. The system would also have a camera at the exit that would again scan the license plate to let the database know that they care had left our property. Using the data retained over time, traffic patterns (peak, off-peak) would easily be known.Does any software like this exist?

 

Check the LPR link i provided on the Geo. There are other LPR software out there but they are normally very expensive. What you explained is the jist of how they all work though. Im sure you can have it customized also, or even customize it yourself or using a 3rd party.

 

Check The Bosch REG Cameras, for LPR. They use to be "Extreme CCTV" cameras so you might see that name listed on this forum alot.

[thewireguys 3]

I can't recommend Exacq enough. Take a look at there Hybrid NVR solutions for you software. You can take advantage of access control integration, IoImage analytics, and megapixel cameras. http://www.exacq.com/

[destro_23 0]

question is... what is the installer recommending for DVR card / software? is it a name brand system?

 

 

I still say sub it all out yourself... and get quotes

[MiamiRob 0]

question is... what is the installer recommending for DVR card / software? is it a name brand system?

 

I still say sub it all out yourself... and get quotes

 

I am still working on the DVR / software issue. I appreciate your mentioning it because it remind me of how important it is.

 

Tonight, I had another meeting with the security company. They totally dropped the idea of coax and now are proposing an IP system. They want to run cat6. They are costing $167 per thousand feet for the cat6 which, at least based on my computer experience is a good price. However, the cost of the actual cable is so minor compared to everything else, it hardly matters.

 

I would like to use some cameras that have video analytics to monitor certain parts of our building's perimeter. I have been looking at cameras from ioimage.

http://www.ioimage.com/?p=ProductLandingPage&ClusterID=775&ParentID=624

 

If anyone has any experience with ioimage or video analytics in general, I would very much like to hear your thoughts. Or if you have considered using video analytics but decided against using it, I would like to hear from you as well.

 

Thanks,

Rob

[rory 0]

 

I am still working on the DVR / software issue. I appreciate your mentioning it because it remind me of how important it is.

 

Tonight, I had another meeting with the security company. They totally dropped the idea of coax and now are proposing an IP system.

 

Are they on this forum too?

[MiamiRob 0]

Tonight, I had another meeting with the security company. They totally dropped the idea of coax and now are proposing an IP system.

 

Are they on this forum too?

 

Rory, We have a project management company that has relayed my concerns to them and that is why they made the change to cat6 and IP. We weren't going to go forward with a company that was putting in that kind of system. It is possible they are on ths forum, but I very, very seriously doubt it and they definitely made the changes to the plan based on feedback from the project manager. Rob

[hardwired 0]

If your integrator is only now proposing IP based equipment as a concession to your request, that doesn't give me a lot of confidence in their experience level with IP systems. I'd ask to see a similar installation that they had completed successfully, before you become their guinea pig for IP systems...

 

BTW, at times, I've been a little hesitant asking for higher product margins, but the prices your vendor is quoting has given me renewed confidence....

[rory 0]

before you become their guinea pig for IP systems...

from the CCTV cameras quoted looks like he was being a guinea pig for them anyway. other then that the bandwidth will be the next issue.