Requesting Comments on Security Cameras for Condo

[Soundy 1]

If your integrator is only now proposing IP based equipment as a concession to your request, that doesn't give me a lot of confidence in their experience level with IP systems. I'd ask to see a similar installation that they had completed successfully, before you become their guinea pig for IP systems...

 

Agreed there... especially since IP was noted (at least here) as a future consideration and the request was supposedly for them to cable with UTP for the analog cameras in preparation for upgrading to IP later. Assuming MiamiRob presented it to them as such, this would indicate that they're not really listening to the customer's desires/requirements and just trying to throw out whatever they can to appease him.

 

In other words, they appear to be operating on the "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance..." model.

[destro_23 0]

man o man... you asked for "way" more "expensive" ip wiring and you got it! LoL And now you want ip cams! mmmmmm that'll be MUCH more expensive

 

lol ok ok i'm turning off the salesman BS(now that your talking to someone else) but generally ip implementation is more expensive.. now i'm thinking with the original ridiculous overblown quote the ip system should be somewhere near that ballpark figure but still less then that...

 

Oh yea...

 

TAKE YOUR TIME!

 

like rory said there is now a whole new host of issues to think about and poe routers vs not.. and network design is now a huge issue. But i remember you said you have some networking background .

[Sawbones 0]

Unlike the pros on here, I'm a DIY guy myself... and I started with an analog system. I've since gone completely IP, and I haven't looked back.

 

Everything is either a formal IP camera (Mobotix or Acti), or analog attached to a camera server that converts the analog into IP. It all runs to a server rack and into a gigabit Cisco PoE switch (yes... I'm one of those guys with a rack in his house). It goes from there to a six-terabyte DVR/NVR (built by me, natch). The video output from the DVR is further distributed over Cat5 to several TVs in the home, such that I can simply turn them on, click the "source" button, and have a beautiful tiled view of my cameras.

 

Just based on what's been proposed so far, I'm not sure how much confidence I'd have in your contractor. Not to knock them, but some of the camera choices... the dimissal of IP-based system (I can't fathom that... the image quality in most light conditions beats analog eight ways to Sunday)... the insistence on Coax... I'm just not sure these guys have done enough of this for a job that size... and you have a sizable job there, as well as the financial budget to do it right.

 

Consider getting a few more estimates. I'm not a pro, merely an educated amateur... but even I don't like what I'm hearing.

[rory 0]

like rory said there is now a whole new host of issues to think about and poe routers vs not.. and network design is now a huge issue. But i remember you said you have some networking background .

true that,

 

and to the OP, if not ready for it, just run cat5 now and use DVRs and Baluns, and do IP later when you are. Things will change over time anyway, IP video systems and cameras will obviously get better, and cheaper. You dont have to do it all at once if you dont want to, dont just jump on it and expect one install to do everything you want, because no amount of money in the world can get you what you want, until you know what you want, and that wont be until you have already used some kind of system at the location and seen where the flaws might be and or where you want to add or move this camera etc to.

 

We can plan all day and night going by experience from other applications or what looks good on paper, but only you will know exactly what you want to see. Additionally the lighting situations will also play a big part in possible restructuring of the cameras and their lighting over time, even moreso if that has not been looked at properly in the beginning.

[MiamiRob 0]

s Destro_23 wrote, I know realize that IP is going to bring a whole new host of issues. And, as he suggests, I am sure that the security company probably views IP as an opportunity to make money on more expensive cameras, etc. The company is proposing a 40% markup on equipment. That mark up would be from their cost. In my corporate life, I usually work with a 20% markup. What would the normal markup be in the security system installation business? I am accustomed to companies making money by charging for their technological expertise rather than by making 40% on their equipment, but I am open to considering that 20% may be too low. It would be great to receive responses about pricing.

 

In my computer career, I have designed many networks that support buildings with thousands of people so I am experienced in network design, implementation and network support. Moving to IP makes the security system just another network but with cameras instead of computers. Which makes me ask myself at what point the expertise of the security company comes into play. My building already has a security plan that was done a few years ago by an excellent security consultant; and so the placement of the cameras has already been established. The electrician will run the conduit. I could hire a cabling company to pull the cable, install the patch panels in the tech room and rack the Ethernet switches, etc. I would imagine that an electrician could also mount the cameras and connect them to the cabling. I need the security company to connect the cameras to the head-end equipment and configure the software that the guards use to manipulate the cameras. I also need the security company to support the system in the future.

 

If the Ethernet network is working fine and the cabling connections to the cameras are all good, where, in everyone’s experience would problems typically occur? Where will an inexperienced security company make mistakes that an experience, seasoned security company would not make? Are the head-end connections difficult?

 

I am more than willing to pay a lot of money for the time and expertise of a security company where those expenditures are warranted. From long experience, I know that it is far better to pay what some may consider too much to obtain the benefits of experience and expertise from professionals. The problem for me is that I am starting to feel that much of the work involved in the installation of our security system does not require the involvement of a security company. (I realize that some who have posted in this message thread have long suggested that.) I have also considered that my own technology experience is possibly making me a little arrogant and perhaps the installation of a security system is more complicated that I believe it to be. On the other hand, if a security company experienced in the installation of IP networks told me they were going to install a network in a fifty-person office and connect all the computers, other than file server configuration, I would say that they would be more that up to the task. I guess I view the head-end equipment in a security system as being analogous to file servers in a computer network.

 

Video analytics

 

I have decided that my building should install a security system that has some ability to autonomously monitor the perimeter of the property. I have spent a considerable amount of time reading about ioimage cameras. Their current list of products is at http://www.ioimage.com/?p=ProductLandingPage&ClusterID=775&ParentID=624

Ioimage has a new video analytics-capable camera priced less than $1,000. In that the security is company is charging us $600 device for cabling, installation and configuration plus the cost of the camera (meaning $1,000+ for each camera installed), I am seriously considering that it would be better to protect the perimeter be installing fewer fixed ioimage cameras that hand off to ioimage PTZs (or another companies’s PTZs with ioimage video analytics enabled.) Some areas of the property would not always be visible on camera, but in that over 25% of our property is accessible only from the water (we are on the Bay in Miami,) and in that the PTZ would continually pan to preset areas, it would be hard for someone to land a boat and jump onto the property without being detected. I know that most of you are expert-level and that what is amazing and new to me is old-hat to you, but just in case you have not already seen video analytics in action, there are some great demos at ioimage http://www.ioimage.com/?p=Demos&ClusterID=489&MainCategory=444&TreeParentID=862&ParentID=642 Are any of you using video analytics? It would be great if you would comment on this technology.

 

I sincerely appreciate all the help that those posting on this Board are providing.

 

Rob

[MiamiRob 0]

I have a pricing question about access control. Perhaps, I should post it in another forum. But in that my question relates to the master system that we have been discussing, I am going to post it here. I will be happy to post it elsewhere if that is how I should be handling it.

 

For every door in our building that will be connected to the access control system and opened using a card or key fob, the security company is quoting:

 

1 RF Receiver $320

1 DCD Board $420

1 Door ajar contact $16

Cabling, installation and configuration, one yr of support $600

Total $1,356

 

Is the RF Receiver is the device over which the key fob or card is passed when a person wants to open a door? This pad would be cabled to the head-end controller\server, right? What is the DCD board? Are these prices reasonable? At least to me, the costs seem to be high for this type of technology. There are many of these setups in the proposal for our building.

 

Thank you very much.

Rob

[thewireguys 3]

IoImage makes some great products but keep in mind video analytics are not 100 percent accurate and if they are not installed correctly and adjusted properly they will not perform very well. I have plans to pick up of there cameras for demo and see how well they work but I just found out that Dvtel just took them over so I am a little worried about continued 3 party NVR support.

[rory 0]

I found these guys the other day, after following a programmer's link from his bio, i was looking at some facial recognition source code. .. interesting stuff if one has the time to play with it.

http://www.ayonix.com

[destro_23 0]

Any update on this? i'm just curious ..... And snowed in

[rory 0]

Any update on this? i'm just curious ..... And snowed in

 

looking for a reason to hit Miami Beach hey?

[destro_23 0]

Any update on this? i'm just curious ..... And snowed in

 

looking for a reason to hit Miami Beach hey?

 

LoL you have no idea!! i was in bahamas last spring.. and man o man i like warm weather..

[Sawbones 0]

Any update on this? i'm just curious ..... And snowed in

 

looking for a reason to hit Miami Beach hey?

 

LoL you have no idea!! i was in bahamas last spring.. and man o man i like warm weather..

 

What kind of cameras are you guys putting on your igloos up there?

[MiamiRob 0]

I am sorry that I haven't posted an update recently.

 

I have had the security company that we are using totally redesign the system. We are nowgoing to install cat6 and run IP cameras. The exterior of the building and property permimiter will be monitored using ioimage IP cameras. The cameras have on-board video analytics and should work very well for our puposes.

 

THey company would like to use exacqVision VMS Software for the cameras. I would prefer to use software that integrates the camera and access control system but apparently that is not possible becuase there are limited vendors that have software that can support th ioimage cameras. I am continuing to investigate this.

 

I am going to spend the weekend reviewing hundreds of pages of information and I will be posting here hoping that you will all be as generouse with your time as you have been in the past and help me out with questions.

 

Thank you.

Rob

[rory 0]

Also, before you spend a fortune, make sure they will work in your lighting conditions.

[Soundy 1]

THey company would like to use exacqVision VMS Software for the cameras. I would prefer to use software that integrates the camera and access control system but apparently that is not possible becuase there are limited vendors that have software that can support th ioimage cameras. I am continuing to investigate this.

 

Good for you! You've already learned the most important lesson from being here: think for yourself!

 

My next question for them would be, why "ioimage"? Why not find software that does what you need first, and then spec cameras that fit the need?

 

As someone said in another forum recently, "utilize a technology that fits the application, rather than forcing the application to fit the technology".

[thewireguys 3]

Exacqvision integrates with access control systems.... what access control are you using?

[reelescape 0]

I'm a little late to the party MiamiRob but with all this homework your doing you should just by the product get your electricians to run the wire and do it yourself. Hire a guy like me to show you where the cameras need to mounted, wire it all up and network everything. Any CCTV company doing a job like this without atleast doubling their money would be a damm fools. Your probally looking at a 300% markup including labor. Just remember your gonna get what you pay for if you pinch somebody on price you can probally expect the same in return when it comes to product workmanship and service call response.

[thewireguys 3]

I'm a little late to the party MiamiRob but with all this homework your doing you should just by the product get your electricians to run the wire and do it yourself. Hire a guy like me to show you where the cameras need to mounted, wire it all up and network everything. Any CCTV company doing a job like this without atleast doubling their money would be a damm fools. Your probally looking at a 300% markup including labor. Just remember your gonna get what you pay for if you pinch somebody on price you can probally expect the same in return when it comes to product workmanship and service call response.

 

[MiamiRob 0]

As someone said in another forum recently, "utilize a technology that fits the application, rather than forcing the application to fit the technology".

Soundy that is good advice.

 

I like Ioimage because their video analytics technology are easy to configure using a browser. Also, a fixed camera can "hand off" an event to a PTZ to continue tracking someone when the person moves out of the fixed camera's view range. I also like the national sales manager for ioimage. He answered my questions very honestly and was very open to helping me understand the ioimage products without trying to sell them to me.

 

The security system company that we are working with signed up to be national reps for Ioimage (or something like that.) The company is also signing up to sell Exacqvision products. Until the security system company started working with me, they saw to reason to get involved with companies that specialized in IP-based systems. That has changed quickly. Now they seem to realize that IP is the future.

 

I meet with the security company in a couple days to try to hash out pricing. I want them to price all the equipment using a cost plus from the wholesale price. The owner of the company had suggested at a previous meeting that he wanted a 40 percent mark-up on all equipment but he would not confirm that he meant 40 percent of the wholesale price. For sure, we are not basing cost-plus on the retail price.

[rory 0]

I wouldn't rely on a browser only, make sure there is also a client application.

[rory 0]

Now they seem to realize that IP is the future.

They would be wrong to think that, nobody knows what the future will bring us.

[Soundy 1]

I like Ioimage because their video analytics technology are easy to configure using a browser. Also, a fixed camera can "hand off" an event to a PTZ to continue tracking someone when the person moves out of the fixed camera's view range. I also like the national sales manager for ioimage. He answered my questions very honestly and was very open to helping me understand the ioimage products without trying to sell them to me.

 

Sounds impressive! I'll have to look into Ioimage, based solely on this last bit. My bull**** detector has a hair-trigger when it comes to anything technology-oriented so it's always nice to deal with people who don't drive it crazy

[thewireguys 3]

I am also looking into IoImage but they where just bought out by DvTel so I don't know what is going to happen with the 3rd party NVR compatibility in the future. You might want to give them a call and ask what the plan is.

[Soundy 1]

The security system company that we are working with signed up to be national reps for Ioimage (or something like that.) The company is also signing up to sell Exacqvision products. Until the security system company started working with me, they saw to reason to get involved with companies that specialized in IP-based systems. That has changed quickly. Now they seem to realize that IP is the future.

 

I meet with the security company in a couple days to try to hash out pricing. I want them to price all the equipment using a cost plus from the wholesale price. The owner of the company had suggested at a previous meeting that he wanted a 40 percent mark-up on all equipment but he would not confirm that he meant 40 percent of the wholesale price. For sure, we are not basing cost-plus on the retail price.

I think I would be insisting on a LOT better pricing from these guys: they're jumping headlong into technology that's all-new to them, learning it on the fly... and you're going to be their guinea pig. Expect it to take them a lot of extra time setting everything up, then troubleshooting it after the fact, and don't be surprised if there are some teething pains and plenty of return visits to fine-tune things. You want to make sure your contract with them accounts for all this, so you don't end up getting billed for THEIR learning time.

[MiamiRob 0]

I have been working with the security company on integrating video analytics cameras into the plans for the perimeter of our building. The security company presented their current version of the access control and security camera plan to us yesterday. The plan includes the cameras listed below. The entire system is going to be IP. Everyone's comments\suggestions are very welcomed.

 

Ioimage Cameras for Video Analytics

7 - Ioimage XPTZ 26x Zoom Analytic Cameras

http://www.ioimage.com/?p=ProductDetails&ClusterID=811&ParentID=624&FatherID=775

 

3 - Ioimage WDC-100DN Fixed Analytic Cameras http://www.ioimage.com/?p=ProductDetails&ClusterID=809&ParentID=624&FatherID=775

 

Vivotek Cameras

27 - Vivotek FD7141

http://www.vivotek.com/products/model.php?network_camera=fd7141

 

10 - Vivotek FD7132

http://www.vivotek.com/products/model.php?network_camera=fd7132

Are the Vivoteks good cameras?

 

4 - Sony ED350 Elevator Cameras

http://www.#######/store/day-night-dome-security-cameras/?&sort=title&sort_direction=0&xsearch_brand=33

 

We are negotiating camera pricing based on a cost-plus structure. They want cost plus 40%. (We have not agreed to that percentage. That is what the security company is proposing.)

The security company is giving us their costs for these cameras as:

Vivotek FD7141 $570

Vivotek FD7131 $360

Ioimage XPTZ 26x $2.960

Ioimage WDC-100DN $1,530

 

There are also four cameras for the elevators for which they specifying "ED350 Elevator camera". I think that they must be Sony cameras. (I will clarify that with the company on Monday.) I found this link for a Sony elevator camera. I think this is it.

http://www.#######/store/day-night-dome-security-cameras/?&sort=title&sort_direction=0&xsearch_brand=33

However, on the Sony site, this camera is not listed.

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-securitycameras/cat-cctv/

 

Right now, I am working on making sure that the network switches they are proposing (Cisco2960G-24TC) are sufficient to handle the traffic this network will generate. They are proposing to connect the cameras to one of three switches with each switch located in different areas of the property. The main reason to locate the switches in different areas of our 500ft+ long property is because of the 100m Ethernet limitation. A side benefit will be that shorter cable runs will be required. Two of the switches will connect back to a main switch in the main tech room. Fiber will be used for switch-to-switch connectivity.

 

I have a feeling that the head-end switch will have to be a larger switch to handle all the traffic coming in from the two other switches. Plus the NVR and computers for the guard stations will also be connected to the head-end switch. I work with computer networks so I am not worried about figuring this out. As Soundy and others have pointed out, I am giving the security company a lot of help (aka, time.) The security company has some smart people but this system is by far the most advanced they have ever installed because of the combination of video analytics and IP. Today, as I reviewed the plans and proposal, I realized that the elevator cameras are analog but on the head-end, there is no equipment to which the elevator cameras can connect. (The security company said that elevator cameras always have to analog. I forget what reason they gave for that.)

 

I continue to appreciate everyone's expert advice and help.

 

Rob

 

[edit by mod-no store links please]