Recmmendation for PC-based DVR

[FuriousGeorge 0]

My instinct is always to go digital, and I like these IP cameras, but (please correct me if I'm wrong) the price performance ratio is not there for a purely digital system.

 

That leaves CCTV...

 

I know that a lot of these DVR + Software bundled are closed proprietary systems that don't work with other DVRs and Software.

 

I don't want this.

 

Can someone recommend a good DVR card and good software that are open, to the extent that I do not marry a particular piece of software or hardware?

 

If such a thing doesn't exist, can someone recommend a solution that doesn't suck as much as the ones I've come across thus far.

[bpzle 0]

May I ask why you are against hardware/ software combos? It's pretty rare to find a PCI(e) CCTV capture card that will be supported by multiple platforms/ manufacturers... That is really going to limit your options. What have you looked at thus far? What do you think "sucks"?

 

If you really insist on separating the software makers from the hardware, there are large number of options for analog encoders aka video servers that are compatible with various IP based recording software. However these are external, networked devices.

[FuriousGeorge 0]

May I ask why you are against hardware/ software combos? It's pretty rare to find a PCI(e) CCTV capture card that will be supported by multiple platforms/ manufacturers... That is really going to limit your options. What have you looked at thus far? What do you think "sucks"?

 

I find the software awkward and buggy. I find they crash often. E-mail notifications are bad or don't work at all. For instance a wireless camera that flickers will generate a video loss e-mail every time it flickers. It should have a threshold whereby I can tell it to generate a notice email only once every X hours.

 

If you really insist on separating the software makers from the hardware, there are large number of options for analog encoders aka video servers that are compatible with various IP based recording software. However these are external, networked devices.

 

It sounds like you are saying to go with IP cameras and some software. What software? What cameras do you recommend?

 

My problem is that I don't want to marry any particular software or hardware solution. There is a Free and Open Source Software solution called Zoneminder, but it is not so great.

 

Alternatively, if you recommend I get one of these bundles, can you recommend a good one for me? I've used a couple, and I liked them not.

[bpzle 0]

I find the software awkward and buggy. I find they crash often. E-mail notifications are bad or don't work at all. For instance a wireless camera that flickers will generate a video loss e-mail every time it flickers. It should have a threshold whereby I can tell it to generate a notice email only once every X hours.

I agree that the software should not be "buggy" or ever crash. CCTV is for security. Plain and simple. It should be able to be trusted. Still, I have no idea what you've tested... but it sounds like no name Asian crap. And don't feel bad, there's a lot of it going around. Especially on Ebay.

 

Also what wireless devices are you using? IP based wireless is the most reliable, but even IT has it's limitations. Analog wireless I refuse to use anymore. It WILL cut out and it's highly unreliable. Even the expensive gear...

 

It sounds like you are saying to go with IP cameras and some software.

 

I was referring to buying an external IP based video encoder and compatible IP based recording software. Acti, Axis, Viotek all make encoders for 1, 4, 8, even 16 channels of analog video they convert to IP. These devices are compatible with various software. Onssi, Milestone, Exacq, Vigil, etc.

 

What software? What cameras do you recommend?

Depends on what your application is. Home or business? What the purpose of your system? What are your goals? What is your budget?

Alternatively, if you recommend I get one of these bundles, can you recommend a good one for me? I've used a couple, and I liked them not.

What bundles are you referring to?

[rory 0]

 

I find the software awkward and buggy. I find they crash often.

 

What DVR cards have you tested? I havent come across this in all the time I have been using DVR cards. Well, only once when someone brought me a card from like Kmart or something to check out, poorly developed software and drivers. But if you go with a decent DVR name then you will be okay.

 

Its important to note though, most software is buggy, either it is buggy because it is free and they dont put as much time into it, or its buggy because they make money off it and want to get it out there as quick as possible before fully testing for errors. Just that some are worse then others, some most will never know the difference.

[FuriousGeorge 0]

You guys are right, in that I need to be more specific. I need a few cameras (3-5) for a construction company. They need to be:

 

-Outdoor

-Tamper Proof / Resistant

-Infrared capability (low light conditions)

 

During the construction of the project the cameras will be on site. Then they will be moved to the next project.

 

I guess my Free and Open Source / Platform politics is getting in the way here. I also have an aversion to anything analog, being digitally biased.

 

I don't want to list the handful of different proprietary / bundle solutions that I've been dissatisfied with, as I don't like to talk smack (plus I still have to call them).

 

In fairness, there has also been an FOSS / Linux Based solution which I've tried and was just as bad if not worse... actually it was worse...

 

Forget all my posts to this point.

 

He who knows not, and knows he knows not, is a student... teach him...

 

Please guys, teach me. What do you recommend for the application I just described above.

 

Thanks so much in advance.

[Soundy 1]

One important question has not been asked (or if it has, I missed it - sorry, in the process of rebuilding a PC on the other side of my desk, so I'm intermittently distracted), is what's your budget? Is the freeware/open-source requirement as much about standards as it is cost?

 

It's maybe a little overkill for your situation, but as an example, take a gander at 3xLogic's Vigil systems. You can buy a complete turnkey DVR/hybrid DVR/NVR system from them; or you can buy the card and software to roll your own; or you can buy just the software and use it as a straight-up NVR with a WIDE range of cameras, or with a decent range of third-party capture cards for a DVR/hybrid system, and on a WIDE range of PC hardware.

 

AFAIK, the smallest package analog/hybrid setup they sell is a 16-channel unit, which is why I say it may be a bit overkill for your current needs... but consider that something like that provides a lot of expandability for the future. You could start off with an all-IP setup and add analog capture hardware and cameras later, or start off with an analog setup with the ability to add IP cameras later. They do sell cameras and capture cards, but again, you're not limited to those; the software is not code-locked to their name-branded hardware like a lot of others are.

 

If you have a spare PC kicking around, download the 30-day demo version of their software and give it a look!

 

As far as the cameras, take a look at CNB's offerings - they make some great cameras for a really good price. An advantage to going to with IP cameras in your situation - with a temporary, portable setup - is that you have a lot more options for hooking things up on remote sites... for example, if the cameras are close together but the DVR has to be farther away, you can just connect the cameras to a local switch, then via a single run to the DVR (you can even do it over DSL/cable/3G/HSPA to a remote DVR). If wiring is a problem, WiFi solutions can be implemented (not the best, but still an option if it's really necessary).

[FuriousGeorge 0]

One important question has not been asked (or if it has, I missed it - sorry, in the process of rebuilding a PC on the other side of my desk, so I'm intermittently distracted), is what's your budget?

 

This has not been asked. To give a concise answer, I'm more concerned with price v performance than overall budget. This means I have to define "performance":

 

-Reliable

-Simple remote administration, even for the laity

-Reliable

 

Is the freeware/open-source requirement as much about standards as it is cost?

 

It's not about freeware or open source software. I'm not an ideologue. I've used FOSS CCTV software and hated it.

 

I just would like to see Open STANDARDS. For example, this DVR card works with any software. After all they are all based on the same 3 or 4 chipsets, right?

 

As I've said before, I think my tech politics are getting in the way, here. In my idealistic mind there will be a FOSS solution down the road that will be feature-comparable and possibly integrate with current FOSS solutions in production (e.g. from existing production Asterisk PBX the CEO can page an "IP Cam" on-site and (because it supports SIP) tell people to "get back to work"... I'm pretty sure I can do this anyway with Asterisk 1.6.1, but I have to ask Google).

 

In order for a FOSS solution to even be possible, there must at least be open STANDARDS.

 

Forget about all that, I just want to know what you guys think...

 

 

It's maybe a little overkill for your situation, but as an example, take a gander at 3xLogic's Vigil systems. You can buy a complete turnkey DVR/hybrid DVR/NVR system from them; or you can buy the card and software to roll your own; or you can buy just the software and use it as a straight-up NVR with a WIDE range of cameras, or with a decent range of third-party capture cards for a DVR/hybrid system, and on a WIDE range of PC hardware.

 

After a cursory glance, that sounds about right. The homepage says all the right things. If I can't have FOSS, and I can't have Open Standards, at least I can "roll my own"

 

I have to look into this more...

 

AFAIK, the smallest package analog/hybrid setup they sell is a 16-channel unit, which is why I say it may be a bit overkill for your current needs...

 

F**k! That doesn't sound very "roll my own". What if I want to buy 2 DVR Cards or Software Licenses and 8 Cameras?

 

I guess I'd have to ask their sales department, but to deny me that would be like saying "Sure, you can roll your own, but for every paper you need 16 grams of rolling media"

 

but consider that something like that provides a lot of expandability for the future. You could start off with an all-IP setup and add analog capture hardware and cameras later, or start off with an analog setup with the ability to add IP cameras later.

 

That sounds cool...

 

They do sell cameras and capture cards, but again, you're not limited to those; the software is not code-locked to their name-branded hardware like a lot of others are.

 

NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!

 

If you have a spare PC kicking around, download the 30-day demo version of their software and give it a look!

 

As far as the cameras, take a look at CNB's offerings - they make some great cameras for a really good price. An advantage to going to with IP cameras in your situation - with a temporary, portable setup - is that you have a lot more options for hooking things up on remote sites... for example, if the cameras are close together but the DVR has to be farther away, you can just connect the cameras to a local switch, then via a single run to the DVR (you can even do it over DSL/cable/3G/HSPA to a remote DVR).

 

Good thinking. Also, PoE is pretty dope.

 

If wiring is a problem, WiFi solutions can be implemented (not the best, but still an option if it's really necessary).

 

As far as wireless, I like it NOT, but your point is well taken. I'll give this potential solution serious consideration.

 

Thanks so much for your suggestion and thorough response to my posts, Soundy!

 

I'll call the Sales department ASAP, but any other suggestions are appreciated in advance.

[Soundy 1]

One important question has not been asked (or if it has, I missed it - sorry, in the process of rebuilding a PC on the other side of my desk, so I'm intermittently distracted), is what's your budget?

 

This has not been asked. To give a concise answer, I'm more concerned with price v performance than overall budget. This means I have to define "performance":

 

-Reliable

-Simple remote administration, even for the laity

-Reliable

 

Well, from my experience, the Vigil systems are basically as reliable as the PC they're built on. Slap it together on cheap hardware, and it may run forever, or it may fall apart under stress. Use quality parts, and you'll have no problems.

 

That said, as with most PCs, you sometimes get surprises. For a while, some turnkey Vigils were using little Shuttle XPC "cube" cases, which were great and compact and for the most part worked well... until we got a whole spate of them that came down with the classic "bulged capacitor" plague. Not right out the door, mind you - most of the systems had been in service a couple years before a bunch of them all went down within a short timeframe. Kinda spooky, but hey... I don't blame Vigil *or* Shuttle, though, a LOT of manufacturers were blindsided by that issue. A bigger problem we had with the cubes were that because of their compact size, people would lock them in small cupboards or cabinets, and the heat will kill them in no time... ahh, there's just no accounting for human stupidity. But at the same time, there were a few that survived a very long time in very bad conditions.

 

I just would like to see Open STANDARDS. For example, this DVR card works with any software. After all they are all based on the same 3 or 4 chipsets, right?

 

IN THEORY, the card shouldn't care... it's the software that gets snarky. Case in point: Vigil and Video Insight systems both use essentially the same ComArt-based cards. The Vigil software will install and run fine with the VI-branded cards (as long as you know the proper corresponding model numbers - ie. when installing on a Video Insight "V60" card, you select Vigil's model number, "HiCap50B"), but the Video Insight software checks the card for the VI branding, and when presented with the equivalent Vigil card, will simply report, "No compatible video board found". Thus, I can build a VI V60 machine, and a Vigil HiCap50B machine, and swap the V60 card into the Vigil and it will "just work"... but I can't swap the HiCap card into the VI system.

 

In order for a FOSS solution to even be possible, there must at least be open STANDARDS.

 

Forget about all that, I just want to know what you guys think...

 

We try not to, actually... it cuts into productivity

 

It's maybe a little overkill for your situation, but as an example, take a gander at 3xLogic's Vigil systems. You can buy a complete turnkey DVR/hybrid DVR/NVR system from them; or you can buy the card and software to roll your own; or you can buy just the software and use it as a straight-up NVR with a WIDE range of cameras, or with a decent range of third-party capture cards for a DVR/hybrid system, and on a WIDE range of PC hardware.

 

AFAIK, the smallest package analog/hybrid setup they sell is a 16-channel unit, which is why I say it may be a bit overkill for your current needs...

 

F**k! That doesn't sound very "roll my own". What if I want to buy 2 DVR Cards or Software Licenses and 8 Cameras?

 

I guess I'd have to ask their sales department, but to deny me that would be like saying "Sure, you can roll your own, but for every paper you need 16 grams of rolling media"

 

Hey, a 16-channel system doesn't mean you HAVE to use 16 cameras! One of the earliest Vigils we have in use, is on a site with ONE camera... and it's had only ONE camera for... oh, probably 6 years now. But if they ever decide they need 15 more cameras, they're set!

 

They do sell cameras and capture cards, but again, you're not limited to those; the software is not code-locked to their name-branded hardware like a lot of others are.

 

NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!

 

Now that said, they don't support EVERY brand of hardware out there... but then, few will. That's a LOT of extra dev time required to add in driver support for other brands. Realistically, they support the chipsets that they sell, which does cover a fair number of different card designs, and don't lock it to their own branding. I've talked them them about support for the Conexant chipsets, since we're retiring a bunch of GeoVision machines and it would be really cool to be able to rebuild them with the Vigil software, but with no existing Conexant support, they say it would be substantial work to add it, and not economically viable considering they don't sell any Conexant-based hardware of their own. Fair enough... I suggested they should just have WDM support in general, but never got a response to that

 

Good thinking. Also, PoE is pretty dope.

 

Yup. We're using that wherever possible. Prices are good these days, making it much more viable. I'm a big fan of the LinkSys SFE-1000P switch, which has eight 10/100 PoE ports and two GbE/fiber ports, making it a great unit for a small number of IP cameras. For example, the stores where we're retiring the Geos in favor of Vigils, we're also adding 3/4/5 IQEye megapixel cameras to most stores, so this switch supports my cameras nicely, and the GbE ports are ideal to connect the DVR and a NAS RAID box. It's managed, fanless, and the real beauty is, the switch retails for under CDN$300.

[bpzle 0]

It's maybe a little overkill for your situation, but as an example, take a gander at 3xLogic's Vigil systems. You can buy a complete turnkey DVR/hybrid DVR/NVR system from them; or you can buy the card and software to roll your own; or you can buy just the software and use it as a straight-up NVR with a WIDE range of cameras, or with a decent range of third-party capture cards for a DVR/hybrid system, and on a WIDE range of PC hardware.

 

Erron told me they don't sell just NVR software by itself. That you have to purchase an entire hardware/ software package from them... Is this true?

[Soundy 1]

Well, he actually works for them, so he'd be in a better position to know, but... when you can download the software, install it with the "NVR" option, and then just purchase your IP licenses... I don't see how they're tying the purchase to their PCs? It would be pretty f'n cheezy to say, "Sorry, we won't sell you the licenses because you didn't buy our computer."

 

Maybe Erron could pop in here and clarify...

[bpzle 0]

kinda what I was thinking... its the first time I've heard of an NVR software developer not willing to sell just their software.

 

That means muy expensive-O when you gotta buy both...

[Soundy 1]

That said, they do build some pretty skookum PCs for their stuff to run on - my experience, it ranges from mid-level to enterprise-grade, but they don't do CHEAP JUNK. If you already have a machine you want to build your NVR on, or get your components at cost or something, then you can certainly realize some savings by building your own, but the Vigil PCs are pretty solid machines as well, and they do provide a warranty (I think hardware is one year, software three years, but I'm not sure about that, so don't quote me on it).

[bpzle 0]

I'm sure their hardware is top notch... It'd just be nice to build my own so I can get MY prices down to where the average small buisness owner can afford a good CCTV system...

I know my clients probably arn't their ideal target market.... but it would be nice if to open a few doors.

 

I can see where 3xLogic is coming from though... It would be a nightmare to support their products if the average Joe started slapping their own components together. Waste a lot of manpower talking on the phone to support something they didn't make money on...

[FuriousGeorge 0]

This is a great forum.

 

Thanks again to everyone for responding to my post...

 

I have yet to call anyone. I'm just too busy lately. As soon as I do reach out to these companies I will let you guys know.

 

If licensing is an issue perhaps I can work something out with these guys in my capacity as a reseller.

 

Thanks again for all the responses.

[FuriousGeorge 0]

If you really insist on separating the software makers from the hardware, there are large number of options for analog encoders aka video servers that are compatible with various IP based recording software. However these are external, networked devices.

 

 

This got me thinking... cheap cctv cams + a "client video server" to convert the streams to IP, interfaced with a server running a real and standards based IP Based software solution sounds so dope.

 

I don't think I really parsed and comprehended your response until now.

 

It would be even doper if I could build some soekris or micro-atx boxen to act as the "client video servers." This way I wouldn't even have to rely on some proprietary devices and their craptacular-web-interfaced firware.

 

This sounds like a job for Linux (if not now, some day)...

 

I'm gonna follow up on all these leads right now, and report back when I have a comprehensive update.

 

I can't thank you guys and these forums enough.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Guest

[bpzle 0]

Easy killer! I think you may be a little too ambitious here... I wouldn't go out trying to re-invent the wheel just yet...

 

I understand crappy hardware and software has left a bitter taste in your mouth, but that's no reason to give up. There is some pretty good stuff out there, you probably just havn't used it.

 

Unless you want to spend the big bucks on an "enterprise solution", I'd bet Avermedia has something that will do everything you want or think you need and then some...

[FuriousGeorge 0]

Easy killer! I think you may be a little too ambitious here... I wouldn't go out trying to re-invent the wheel just yet...

 

It's like you already know me. I do have some experience with Digital IP Broadcasting in Linux. Nonetheless, your point about K.I.S.S. is well taken, hence my parenthetical statement about (some day).

 

Unless you want to spend the big bucks on an "enterprise solution"

 

Given the right hardware I was assuming whatever analog -> digital networked devices were out there (haven't done much research) are nominally more expensive, but significantly more flexible than what I could do, but still...

 

Your point about K.I.S.S. is well taken

 

[quote[

I'd bet Avermedia has something that will do everything you want or think you need and then some...

 

Avermedia, aye? I'll give them a call right now. I'm in some queue at 3xLogix.

[bpzle 0]

3xLogic aka Vigil is pretty slick stuff from what I hear. But I wouldn't know personally... too expensive for my clientale. It's more of the "enterprise" stuff I mentioned. Not something the average homeowner or small biz can justify...

 

Look at the Avermedia NV6480e card. It captures and records 16 channels of normal "analog" cameras but also comes with software to record from IP cameras. Hence the name "hybrid." You can record any combination of analog and IP cameras as long as the total # of cameras is less than 16.

Probably more than you need, but always best to over spec in my opinion.

The software is pretty slick and very well supported. Lots of alarming, FTP, NAS, SMTP, SMS and more options... Every now and then they have a glitch in the software but it's usually addressed in a timely fashion. To give you an example, I called and left them a message on the weekend about an issue. Monday they called me 3 times throughout the day trying to get ahold of me untill I could take the call. It was like I owed them money! lol Try that with Geovision or no name Asian cards.

[FuriousGeorge 0]

I notice both Geovision and Avermedia have sub-topics, but only the latter has been recommended to me thus far.

 

Does anyone have anything to say about Geovision, nice or otherwise.

[bpzle 0]

I don't know anything about Geo...

 

Did you ever end up deciding on anything?

[Soundy 1]

I notice both Geovision and Avermedia have sub-topics, but only the latter has been recommended to me thus far.

 

Does anyone have anything to say about Geovision, nice or otherwise.

 

They're a decent system... lot better than most of the cheap stuff flooding the market. Works fairly well, but the interface - or more specifically, the menus and controls - are frustrating and poorly laid out (IMHO). There's a particularly dangerous oddity in that you have to stop all cameras recording before you can go into the main settings page... too often I've seen someone (including myself) forget to re-start recording after adjusting some settings, and machine have sat for days without recording anything.

 

I've also found an annoying little hardware thing with them, at least with the versions of the cards I've had foisted on me, in that a single camera being flaky/noisy can affect up to three other cameras that share that one encoding channel, and cause them to drop out entirely. NOT a good thing, and can be very frustrating if you have to figure out which one camera is taking down all four.

[bpzle 0]

Soundy,

 

With Avermedia,I haven't experienced any of the issues with multiple cameras dropping out or the recording shutting off. Maybe I've just been lucky?

 

I partially agree with you about the menu systems and layout... I say partially because to an installer such as you or myself that has worked with a dozen or more types of systems, there are countless things unique to Aver that make you go "what the?!?"

It can be very confusing and frustrating to someone who knows too much. lol

 

To give an example:

I've installed well over a hundred systems in may day. I know what I'm doing, I don't need manuals! Just hardware requirements. I usually figure things out pretty quick. Or so I thought...

My first install with Aver it took me over 3 hours to figure out why none of my properly forwarded ports could be seen outside of the LAN. I was ready to kick the thing to the curb... I finally called tech support and they said "Is the network button at the bottom clicked? Click it and try again." Are you kidding me?!? I felt so stupid.

 

Another quirky thing is the recording schedule. So I set the schedule for every camera but the stupid thing wouldn't record anything. Turns out there is a "master" on/ off record scheduler in addition to the individual cameras and it defaults to off all the time. Stupid...

 

That first install was a PITA. But, now I can fly through in less than 30 minutes.

 

The interface is powerful and very easy to train and use for end users. It can just be frustrating for people that "know too much" and think they don't need manuals.

[Soundy 1]

Er... I was talking about GeoVision, actually... I've never seen an Aver system

[bpzle 0]

haha... my bad

 

Ya that just further confirms my disinterest in Geo.

 

I looked into offering them almost 2 years ago. I never could get a sales rep to call me back.

 

I figured, if I can't even get ahold of a sales rep, tech support definetley wouldn't answer my calls. Forget these donkies