Need help designing an 8 camera CCTV solution (Coax vs. UTP)

[BoneHeadGolf 0]

Full Disclosure... I'm a Newb and this is my first post after reading tons of great information on this forum.

 

I volunteer a lot of my time to a non-profit youth activities organization in different roles and capacities (i.e. coaching, field maintenance, IT support, web stuff, etc.). The organization recently purchased a Snack Shack trailer for our ball-fields and would like to implement an affordable CCTV solution that would ensure the safety of our Snack Shack occupants and patrons while protecting the new investment from vandalism. A Clubhouse located approx. 330 ft. from the Snack Shack will host a DVR and several cameras as well. We have an onsite licensed electrician and IT Network resource (me) that will assist with implementation, configuration and troubleshooting of cameras, software and networks to reduce time and expense implementing the CCTV solution.

 

I did a walk-thru of my site and requirements with three different local CCTV installers and each had different recommendations, provided contradicting information and non-detailed quotes after which I was more confused than when I started. My challenge is to sort through the requirements (see below) and decide which vendor and architecture I can build with on a limited budget without implementing a junky solution. Hopefully, the knowledgable folks on this forum could help me gain some clarity. Here's is a brain dump of what I’m trying to accomplish, any feedback to my questions below would be very helpful and greatly appreciated.

 

Goals:

* Monitor and record people entering/exiting the snack shack trailer and clubhouse facilities. Total facial recognition is not required. These are not high-risk areas.

* Monitor and record internal/external snack shack and clubhouse activity

* Deter vandalism and potential for product and/or monetary loss

* Minimize expense where possible via donation, material at cost and DIY resources

 

Camera Locations:

* Snack Shack located approx. 330 ft. from clubhouse: (4) cameras total (2-indoor dome, 1-outdoor dome, 1-outdoor PTZ)

* Clubhouse: (4) cameras total (3-indoor dome, 1-outdoor dome)

 

Camera Requirements:

* Ability to record full motion video images in day/low/no-light, auto iris, vari-focal lens with built-in video motion detection

* (5) Indoor Vari-focal/day-night or IR/vandal-proof/>500 TVL dome cameras (budget about $100-$150/camera)

* (2) Outdoor Vari-focal/day-night or IR/weather-proof/vandal-proof/>500 TVL dome cameras (budget about $100-$150/camera)

* (1) Outdoor PTZ/day-night or IR/weather-proof/vandal-proof dome w/ heater & blower/>500 TVL dome cameras. (budget $400-$500)

 

DVR Requirements:

* Standalone 16ch DVR w/ 1TB in clubhouse office, connect to network router and configure for web-based remote access (budget about $700 for DVR)

* Record video activity with a high frame rate from 7-8 cameras (initial) with potential to support at least 16 cameras (future)

* Retain video activity for at least 14 days

* Ability to monitor selective cameras & playback recordings from local and remote (i.e. via internet) locations

* Ability to transfer selective audio/video recordings to removable media (i.e. USB drive, CD/DVD-ROM…)

* PTZ speed dome controller keypad

* 19” or 21” LCD Flatscreen panel (TBD: wide screen or standard)

 

Cable and Power:

* Empty 2" underground conduit currently in place between clubhouse and snack shack facility, approx 330 ft.

* Distance from DVR to farthest camera approx. 400 ft.

* Cables between the clubhouse and snack shack will be pulled by onsite licensed electrician and available when needed

* IT resource will assist with implementation, configuration and troubleshooting of cameras, software and networks.

TBD:

* Cable: UTP CAT5e/6 using Video w/ Power-thru Baluns or Siamese coax

* Power supply: 12VDC or 24VAC

 

Questions:

Q1) Can't decide if we should...

a) Home Run Siamese Coax - from cameras back to the clubhouse DVR and power supply over siamese coax. (note: distance from DVR/power supply to farthest camera approx. 400 ft.)

Pros: single power supply, clean, simple solution, no terminal blocks or baluns needed, less points of failure

Cons: siamese coax is bulky and heavy, would have to pull one coax cable for ever camera needed plus spares, limited potential for future expansion

b) Home Run UTP CAT5e/6 - from cameras back to the clubhouse DVR and power supply over UTP cable (note: distance from DVR/power supply to farthest camera approx. 400 ft.)

Pros: single power supply, clean, simple solution, only one terminal block needed, power and video via same UTP cable

Cons: Need to run one UTP cable per camera, quality Video /w Power baluns get expensive, some people question quality of video signal and power over UTP with balun, would need to pull extra UTP for future expansion if additional cameras needed at remote snack shack location

c) Hub and spoke UTP - with a power supply and 110 punch block in both the clubhouse and snack shack locations. "Tie" clubhouse and snack shack hubs together with (4) CAT5e/6 cables terminating on 110 punch blocks. Cameras will "spoke" back to either clubhouse or snack shack 110 block/power supply "hubs" with UTP CAT5e/6 cable and Video w/ power-thru baluns.

Pros: easier to pull UTP cable, can transmit (4) video signals over one UTP cable, good potential for future expansion if additional cameras needed at snack shack location, good migration path to IP-based cameras if needed, can run data for PTZ over unused twisted pairs.

Cons: Added expense for more components needed (e.g. additional power supply, (2) 110 punch blocks, (16) Video Buluns), more points of failure, some people question quality of video signal over UTP with baluns

 

Q2) If choosing either options a) or b) above, should I opt for a 24VAC power supply or 12VDC?

Q3) If choosing option c) above, would a 12VDC suffice?

Q4) Will there be much of a difference in video quality using siamese coax vs. UTP at a max.distance of 400 ft. assuming everything was installed to spec?

Q5) Looking for quality CCTV Baluns and Baluns w/ power pass-thru recommendations within budget (~ $20 each) Possible candidates: MuxLab, others?

Q6) Looking for dome camera manufacturer and model recommendations within budget (~ $100-$150). Possible candidates: CNB Monalisa, LT Security, others?

Q7) Looking for DVR manufacturer and model recommendations within budget. (~ $600-$750)

 

Sorry for the lengthy post.

 

Regards,

BHG

[Soundy 1]

Goals:

* Monitor and record people entering/exiting the snack shack trailer and clubhouse facilities. Total facial recognition is not required. These are not high-risk areas.

* Monitor and record internal/external snack shack and clubhouse activity

* Deter vandalism and potential for product and/or monetary loss

* Minimize expense where possible via donation, material at cost and DIY resources

 

Well, for a noob, you've done a great job of defining your goals without going overboard on the specs. Off to a good start!

 

Camera Locations:

* Snack Shack located approx. 330 ft. from clubhouse: (4) cameras total (2-indoor dome, 1-outdoor dome, 1-outdoor PTZ)

* Clubhouse: (4) cameras total (3-indoor dome, 1-outdoor dome)

 

Something to keep in mind right off the hop here: quality PTZs WILL NOT be cheap, and are really mostly effective when someone is watching them. Any PTZ will only record what it's pointing at at that moment; you can't go back later and steer it around and zoom on on something that it didn't record. You probably already know this, but you'd be surprised (or maybe not) at how many people think you can actually do that, based on what they see in the movies

 

If you DO need to record a large area and be able to zoom in on it later, consider a 3-5MP IP camera with a wide lens, and a hybrid DVR.

 

Camera Requirements:

* Ability to record full motion video images in day/low/no-light, auto iris, vari-focal lens with built-in video motion detection

 

With analog cameras, motion detection and "full motion" aren't really considerations - they simply send out constant 30/25 fps (NTSC/PAL, depening on where you live) video.

 

TBD:

* Cable: UTP CAT5e/6 using Video w/ Power-thru Baluns or Siamese coax

* Power supply: 12VDC or 24VAC

 

...

 

b) Home Run UTP CAT5e/6 - from cameras back to the clubhouse DVR and power supply over UTP cable (note: distance from DVR/power supply to farthest camera approx. 400 ft.)

Pros: single power supply, clean, simple solution, only one terminal block needed, power and video via same UTP cable

Cons: Need to run one UTP cable per camera, quality Video /w Power baluns get expensive, some people question quality of video signal and power over UTP with balun, would need to pull extra UTP for future expansion if additional cameras needed at remote snack shack location

 

Your "cons" aren't really cons. Whether you run UTP or siamese, you'll need to pull extra cables if you want to plan for future capacity or redundancy.

 

Baluns do add cost, but consider the relative cost of Cat5e vs. Siamese, and it balances out pretty quickly.

 

Also, there's no need to spend substantially more on "power-thru" baluns - if you're going to run power over the UTP, just use basic screw-terminal or tool-less video-only baluns, split out one pair for the video, then tie the other pairs to power manually. It's a little more effort, but they're a helluva lot cheaper, and every bit as effective. In other words, with the power-thru units, you're just paying extra for convenience... like going to 7-Eleven to pay $8 for that dozen-count bottle of Aspirin at 3am, instead of suffering until morning so you can get a 60-count bottle for the same $8 at the pharmacy

 

c) Hub and spoke UTP - with a power supply and 110 punch block in both the clubhouse and snack shack locations. "Tie" clubhouse and snack shack hubs together with (4) CAT5e/6 cables terminating on 110 punch blocks. Cameras will "spoke" back to either clubhouse or snack shack 110 block/power supply "hubs" with UTP CAT5e/6 cable and Video w/ power-thru baluns.

Pros: easier to pull UTP cable, can transmit (4) video signals over one UTP cable, good potential for future expansion if additional cameras needed at snack shack location, good migration path to IP-based cameras if needed, can run data for PTZ over unused twisted pairs.

Cons: Added expense for more components needed (e.g. additional power supply, (2) 110 punch blocks, (16) Video Buluns), more points of failure, some people question quality of video signal over UTP with baluns

 

This would probably be my choice... and again, your cons aren't really cons.

 

First, there's added equipment, but there's also reduced cable cost - again, it balances out a lot quicker than you might think. You'd need only one cable run for all four video feeds, vs. four going the other two options (not counting redundancy/expansion/PTZ data/etc.)

 

Second, the number of baluns doesn't change whether you use this option, or option B, so that's not really a "con" specific to option C.

 

Third, as nice and tidy as punchblocks are, they really aren't necessary; standard twisting-the-wires-together-and-capping-them-with-a-beanie-crimp will do just fine... especially if budget is a concern. And if you do want things tidy eventually, the punchblocks are something that can always be added later.

 

As far as power supplies, you're not going to pay substantially more for two four-channel units than you would for one eight-channel... and in fact, it could save money in the long run, because if you put a single 8-channel in the clubhouse, and later want to add cameras, the next step in most product lines is a 16-channel... while powering the shack cameras locally would mean you only need to upgrade one supply from a 4 to an 8 when the time comes.

 

Q2) If choosing either options a) or b) above, should I opt for a 24VAC power supply or 12VDC?

Q3) If choosing option c) above, would a 12VDC suffice?

 

I would go 24VAC in all instances. For one, there's less voltage drop over longer/thinner runs. Second, 24VAC or 12/24 cameras don't have problems with ground loops when using baluns, the way cheap 12VDC-only cameras do (because these types typically have a shared ground between power and video - there are numerous threads on this issue).

 

Q4) Will there be much of a difference in video quality using siamese coax vs. UTP at a max.distance of 400 ft. assuming everything was installed to spec?

 

No; in fact, in some instances, I've found baluns over *station wire* (nevermind UTP) to provide cleaner picture than coax. YMMV, of course.

 

Q5) Looking for quality CCTV Baluns and Baluns w/ power pass-thru recommendations within budget (~ $20 each) Possible candidates: MuxLab, others?

 

We use a lot of GEM and GVI baluns - a lot cheaper than the "big" names like NVT and MuxLab, and work just as well. I recently bought one pair of each brand our distributor carries (all four listed above, including two different GEM models) and tested them through a still-coiled box of about 550' of Cat5e, using a 600TVL CNB Mona Lisa dome camera, and found little to no difference between the $13/pair GEM units, and the $40/each surge-protected NVTs.

 

Q6) Looking for dome camera manufacturer and model recommendations within budget (~ $100-$150). Possible candidates: CNB Monalisa, LT Security, others?

 

CNB all the way, especially where low light and day/night capabilities are needed. Bonus is that they're dual-voltage, so you can run 24VAC. I believe there's even a version with built-in baluns, which would save you on buying and installing one-half of your balun count.

 

Q7) Looking for DVR manufacturer and model recommendations within budget. (~ $600-$750)

 

That, I can't help you with - we deal with strictly higher-end PC-based systems in the $3500+ range.

 

Sorry for the lengthy post.

 

No problem at all - it's a hulluva lot nicer than the typical "I need a system for my house, what should I get??" types we usually see

 

In short, this is how I'd probably do it:

- 8-channel 24VAC PSU at each location (let's just plan ahead for the power capacity, the price difference from four to eight channels shouldn't be much).

 

- Four runs of Cat5e between clubhouse and shack - one for the three fixed cameras initially, one for the PTZ (video and data), and a couple spares/future.

 

- Power supply located near the cable entry point to the shack; PSU proximity to splice point makes things easier.

 

- Cat5e runs from there to each camera. My color code is typically blue pair for video, orange and green pairs for power, brown pair left for future use. Splices made with B-crimps.

 

- Shack Cat5e runs in clubhouse pulled either direct to DVR location, or spliced again, but I'd run UTP right to the DVR and tied the baluns in right there where they connect.

 

In the clubhouse, I'd do similar: Cat5e run to each camera, PSU placed near DVR. From there, it depends on the individual job... I've pulled them all inside the PSU box, split out a healthy amount of the blue pairs, then pulled a bundle of blue across to the DVR; I've pulled out by the DVR, split out the power pairs, and taken those as a bundle to the PSU box; I've extended the PSU runs using 18/2 (pain in the arse, BTW)...

 

One thing, if you do plan to go to IP cameras in the future, you might want to pull something for power to each camera's location... or plan to use PoE.

 

Note: you could also put the baluns right where the UTP enters each building, and extend to the DVR and cameras using coax or Siamese, but really, one of the benefits of using all UTP is that you reduce the amount of cable you need to stock, carry, and handle. Since we've been doing baluns and UTP almost exclusively, I almost never have to load any coax into my van, or pack it into a jobsite. I just carry four boxes of Cat5e, and that does for cameras AND network installs, and in a pinch, I can use it for intercoms and other utility purposes as well (although Station-Z wire is preferable for that, because it's a LOT cheaper - I do carry one or two boxes of that as my main "utility" wire).

 

The 3M intercoms we use on fuel sites, for example, use two pairs for RS-485 communication, and one pair for audio, between their base unit and the desktop "selector" unit (keypad and mic)... where we previously had to pull a piece of station wire and a piece of 18/2 for that - resulting in ugly wiring on the desk - I now just use a nice clean-looking piece of Cat5e - orange and green for the RS-485, brown and blue pairs for the audio. All in all, very versatile stuff, that Cat5e

 

Cat5e now costs us about the same as coax, but with coax, I also need something for power... and it's a damn sight cheaper than Siamese cable (which really, is nothing special, just separate coax and 18/2 cables joined by a web - again, it's a convenience more than anything).

[BoneHeadGolf 0]

Soundy - Thanks so much for the prompt, detailed and very helpful response. " title="Applause" /> It's good to have many of my thoughts (and over thoughts) validated while I approach this challenge.

 

Note: you could also put the baluns right where the UTP enters each building, and extend to the DVR and cameras using coax or Siamese, but really, one of the benefits of using all UTP is that you reduce the amount of cable you need to stock, carry, and handle.

Good idea! In fact, I had thought of something very similar which would have been a hybrid approach to my hub and spoke option "C". I have a couple of cameras that NEED to be surface mounted and didn't want to use ugly surface mounted backboxes to hide the balun and didn't think the balun would fit in the base of the dome. So, I thought of using a 4ch Video UTP transceiver (4 x BNC female to 1 x RJ45) where the UTP enter each building and run siamese to each camera and the DVR.

 

Third, as nice and tidy as punchblocks are, they really aren't necessary; standard twisting-the-wires-together-and-capping-them-with-a-beanie-crimp will do just fine... especially if budget is a concern. And if you do want things tidy eventually, the punchblocks are something that can always be added later.

If I wanted to eliminate the use of a punchblock to demarc my "tie" cable and camera runs, could I just beanie-crimp the Video pairs in the 24VAC PSU enclosure assuming there's space in there or would that cause interference with the video signal?

 

I think someone may have asked this once before but couldn't find the answers...

Q1) What's the difference between the CNB VBM-24VF and VBM-24VD and and when would I use one camera over the other?

 

Q2) Similar but different question, other than the surface mount, what's the difference between the CNB VBM-24VF and VCM-24VF and would a Muxlab 500023 Mini Balun fit in the base of either dome camera?

 

Q3) For my indoor and outdoor locations that have some ambient lighting, would you recommend a VBM-24VF or something like CNB V2815NVR?

 

edited..

Q4) Does anyone know if these CNB dome cameras mentioned above are weatherproof and can they be mounted outside with NY weather? If so, do they require special mounts for horizontal or vertical positions?

 

Thanks all for your feedback, it's greatly appreciated!

 

Regards,

BHG

[Soundy 1]

Third, as nice and tidy as punchblocks are, they really aren't necessary; standard twisting-the-wires-together-and-capping-them-with-a-beanie-crimp will do just fine... especially if budget is a concern. And if you do want things tidy eventually, the punchblocks are something that can always be added later.

If I wanted to eliminate the use of a punchblock to demarc my "tie" cable and camera runs, could I just beanie-crimp the Video pairs in the 24VAC PSU enclosure assuming there's space in there or would that cause interference with the video signal?

 

I have done that, it works just fine.

 

I think someone may have asked this once before but couldn't find the answers...

Q1) What's the difference between the CNB VBM-24VF and VBM-24VD and and when would I use one camera over the other?

 

This line in the features list: "- TDN(ICR)". The VF is a "true day/night" camera with a switchable IR cut filter - during the day, the camera operates in color mode and the filter is in place; below the defined light level, the filter moves out of the way and the camera switches to B&W mode. You'd use the VF anywhere you need better low-light performance.

 

Q2) Similar but different question, other than the surface mount, what's the difference between the CNB VBM-24VF and VCM-24VF and would a Muxlab 500023 Mini Balun fit in the base of either dome camera?

 

The VCM is a shallower dome with a small (3-1/8" diameter, 1-1/4" deep) protrusion out the back - these are the style we use most, and they flush-mount nicely in a tile or drywall ceiling with a 3-1/8" or 3-1/4" hole saw.

 

The MuxLab balun should fit fine inside the back-box - we use these GEM baluns and they fit inside the CNB back-box.

 

Unfortunately, I couldn't tell you if the baluns would fit inside the VBM models, as I haven't used that style.

 

Q3) For my indoor and outdoor locations that have some ambient lighting, would you recommend a VBM-24VF or something like CNB V2815NVR?

 

If there's ambient lighting, I'd stick with the VxM-24VF, as they do really well with very little light. I'm not a fan of built-in IR, as it's usually added to compensate for poor low-light performance. The V2815NVR is a case in point: according to your link, despite also being "true day/night", the 2815 has a low-lux rating of 0.3 color and 0.1 B&W, while the 24VF is rated for 0.1/0.01. Built-in IR has other problem all its own as well, such as a limited range where it provides good exposure - items too close is washed out, too far and it's ineffective.

 

Q4) Does anyone know if these CNB dome cameras mentioned above are weatherproof and can they be mounted outside with NY weather? If so, do they require special mounts for horizontal or vertical positions?

 

They absolutely can - we have several VCM models in outdoor weather, mounted directly to vertical walls or other surfaces. There are pendant mounts available, but I've never bothered.

[BoneHeadGolf 0]

Thanks again Soundy for that detailed response. It's greatly appreciated!

 

I think I'm becoming a fan of these CNB cameras as well without even seeing their performance yet. However, one of the CCTV installers wanted to use some comparably priced LT Security TDN cameras that he's used in the past.

 

Do you (or any one else) have any first hand experience with LT Security cameras (>500TVL) in terms of performance, reliability, implementation and company support?

 

Regards,

BHG

[Soundy 1]

Never even heard of "LT Security" so I couldn't tell ya... tell the other installer to send me one, and I'll compare them

 

BTW, don't get too hung up on TVL ratings - they're a fair "indicator" of comparative resolution, but not the be-all, end-all factor most marketing makes it out to be.

[BoneHeadGolf 0]

Hi Soundy, thanks for the last reply and as always, very informative.

 

BTW, I was able to get a whole bunch of Pelco CCC1370H-2 and Navco 4850 block cams along with (2) Navco 8520-16 DVRs and (2) 24VAC fused Pelco MSC16-10E PSUs from a decommissioned project. Some of the stuff is pretty old but it works; probably good stuff back then. The fans in the 7-yr old DVRs are too noisy for our application, not sure if that's normal for that unit or if replacement fans will do the trick. I'm hesitant to use that DVR because of it's age, can't find an Owners Mannual or much information about this unit online JIC I need support in the future. As for the cams, not sure if they make dome enclosures (prefered for my application) for those Pelco & Navco brick cams however I may be able to use them indoors where a dome is not needed.

 

If you (or others) don't mind, I have some more questions...

Q1) Any idea spec and quality wise how these Pelco & Navco cameras compare to the CNB VBM-24VF?

Q2) Although I'm not crazy about the siamese coax home-run option I previous mentioned, I was wondering if the 24VAC Pelco MSC16-10E PSU could drive those or CNB cams located max. 400 ft. without too much power dropoff?

Q3) If I pull extra siamese coax for future use, do I leave the coax as-is or should I terminate the run?

Q4) Is there a clean way to "extend" the extra siamese coax run I pulled to the shack location if I need to add a camera; if so, how?

 

Best Regards,

BHG

[Soundy 1]

Hi Soundy, thanks for the last reply and as always, very informative.

 

BTW, I was able to get a whole bunch of Pelco CCC1370H-2 and Navco 4850 block cams along with (2) Navco 8520-16 DVRs and (2) 24VAC fused Pelco MSC16-10E PSUs from a decommissioned project.

 

Good score! Get a good price on that?

 

The fans in the 7-yr old DVRs are too noisy for our application, not sure if that's normal for that unit or if replacement fans will do the trick. I'm hesitant to use that DVR because of it's age, can't find an Owners Mannual or much information about this unit online JIC I need support in the future.

 

Look at it this way: you're a non-profit, you're on a tight budget... use those DVRs initially to save some money, and IF they have issues, replace them later (hopefully they last until at least the next fiscal year )

 

As for the cams, not sure if they make dome enclosures (prefered for my application) for those Pelco & Navco brick cams

 

There should be domes (possibly third-party) available that would let you use those cameras outdoor, but they'd probably be large and somewhat unsightly. A more common enclosure to use them outdoors would be something like the Pelco EH3508or 3512. Indoors, you can use a dome like a Pelco DF5 to mount it in a drywall or tile ceiling.

 

If you (or others) don't mind, I have some more questions...

 

Oh sure, why stop now?

 

Q1) Any idea spec and quality wise how these Pelco & Navco cameras compare to the CNB VBM-24VF?

 

I'm not familiar with the Navcos at all, but we've used Pelco CC3701 and CC3751s extensively; they're good cameras, but neither of those, or the 1370, are day/night cameras, which may be a factor in your case.

 

Q2) Although I'm not crazy about the siamese coax home-run option I previous mentioned, I was wondering if the 24VAC Pelco MSC16-10E PSU could drive those or CNB cams located max. 400 ft. without too much power dropoff?

 

Shouldn't be a problem. I've used those power supplies as well (or cousins to them) - if memory serves, they should have the option of 24 or 28V outputs, so if you find there's too much loss at the other end, you can switch to the 28V terminal for that camera. The CNBs should reliably work with less voltage, though.

 

Q3) If I pull extra siamese coax for future use, do I leave the coax as-is or should I terminate the run?

 

I'd terminate it now, while you're at it, and save the effort later.

 

Q4) Is there a clean way to "extend" the extra siamese coax run I pulled to the shack location if I need to add a camera; if so, how?

 

[BoneHeadGolf 0]

You 'da man Soundy...

 

I scored big, got a great price... FREE " title="Applause" /> They were going to destroy this stuff anyway because it was EOL and couldn't be redeployed. I had the same thought to use the DVRs for a short time but they're too noisy for an office. I guess I could find a secure closet for the DVR and extend the video output and PTZ controller to the office where the LCD monitor is located .

 

Speaking of LCD monitors, what's best for these DVRs, an LCD TV w/ tunner or a LCD monitor like we use with our computer? Also, what size (i.e. 19", 21") and format (i.e. standard or widescreen) do you find to work best if I would typically display 8 camera outputs?

 

Those Pelco DF5 domes look interesting but you bring up a great point that they're not D/N. I thought to use the BNC barrel connector but wasn't sure how much signal loss (if any) there would be.

 

Last question (for now ), what's the word on CNB Outdoor Speed Dome PTZ camera, any first hand experience, price/performance value...?

 

Just gotta pull the trigger soon and pick a direction, will keep you informed. Thanks again for your input and feedback.

[bpzle 0]

I agree with everything Soundy said but have a couple things to add...

 

A good PTZ and keyboard will cost more than what your budget allows. Save the cash and just buy more cameras. That way you can set the cameras up and forget about them until something happens. PTZs have a cool "neat" factor but they're expensive, break easy with all the moving parts, and you've got better things to do than to sit there zooming around all the time.

 

Save the cash you budgeted for a PTZ and spend it on the DVR...

Take a look at the standalone Avermedia EH5216. 16 channel hybrid (analog and IP) recorder. Really a neat unit for the money. Do some creative shopping in the internet, and it won't be much more than what you already budgeted. The unit also has a VGA output so almost any computer LCD with VGA inputs will do. The GUI is pretty good too... remember with DVRs a big portion of what your paying for is the quality of software and the r&d it took to make something that's not a piece of junk. Cheaper units (heck even units around the same price) can't compare to Aver's value and ease of use...

[bpzle 0]

Also, my rep sent me this... It's a model # scheme to help make sense of the nearly endless array if CNB cameras.

 

Mona Lisa Product:

 

Beginning letters:

 

DBM: D(ome) B M(ona Lisa): Mona Lisa Indoor Dome, clear dome size in 100mm diameter

 

VCM: V(andal proof) C M(ona Lisa): Mona Lisa Vandal-proof Dome, clear dome size in 100mm diameter, surface mount + Flush Mount

 

VBM: V(andal proof) B M(ona Lisa): Mona Lisa Vandal-proof Dome, clear dome size in 100mm diameter, surface mount only

 

BBM: B(ox) B M(ona Lisa): Mona Lisa Box camera

 

DFL: D(ome) F L(Mona Lisa without OSD): Mona Lisa Indoor Dome, clear dome size in 85mm diameter

 

 

 

Ending letters:

 

VD: Vari-focal without removable Cut-filter

 

VF: Vari-focal with removable Cut-filter

 

 

 

 

 

Non Mona Lisa Product:

 

Beginning Letters:

 

V : V(andal proof)

 

D: D(ome)

 

G: Box

 

A: zoom Camera

 

 

 

Ending letters:

 

NVR: NTSC, Vari-focal, IR

 

NIR: NTSC, fixed Lens, IR

 

NVD: NTSC, Vari-focal without removable Cut-filter

 

NVF: NTSC, Vari-focal with removable Cut-filter

 

The vandal proof series (VCx, VBx, V1xxx, V2xxx, etc.) are IP65 or equivalent

[Soundy 1]

You 'da man Soundy...

 

I scored big, got a great price... FREE " title="Applause" /> They were going to destroy this stuff anyway because it was EOL and couldn't be redeployed.

 

Awesome score, congrats!

 

I had the same thought to use the DVRs for a short time but they're too noisy for an office. I guess I could find a secure closet for the DVR and extend the video output and PTZ controller to the office where the LCD monitor is located .

 

That would probably be my choice in this instance (or even just replace the fans, if the problem is simply that they're old and noisy). Again, leaves you a lot of extra budget for other parts of the project, the more of this stuff you can re-use.

 

Speaking of LCD monitors, what's best for these DVRs, an LCD TV w/ tunner or a LCD monitor like we use with our computer? Also, what size (i.e. 19", 21") and format (i.e. standard or widescreen) do you find to work best if I would typically display 8 camera outputs?

 

If the DVRs support VGA or DVI output, there should (theoretically) be no difference between a "TV" or a "computer monitor" with a VGA or DVI input. In that case, there's little point in spending the extra on a display with a tuner and a myriad of other inputs.

 

Size should be whatever fits the situation, taking budget and available space into account. Normally, you'll probably find a 4:3 display better; unless the DVR can use the widescreen's native resolution (generally 1440x900 up to 20", 1680x1050 above that), the image will be stretched and "soft".

 

Either way, it will probably have limited options to display multiple cameras - at the least, four (2x2) and nine (3x3) grids.

 

I thought to use the BNC barrel connector but wasn't sure how much signal loss (if any) there would be.

 

Nothing that will make a noticeable difference.

[BoneHeadGolf 0]

Thanks again Soundy... Not sure how to operate the Navco 8520-16 DVR, certainly didn't work the way I thought it would/should. So now I'm looking for Navco 8520-16 DVR User Guides. Was not able for find anything to download from the Navco web site. I spoke to someone at Navco, not sure if it was a technical person becuase they didn't seem all that technical during our conversation. They basically sent me a 1 page fax for a different model with tips on how to record onto a DVD. Basically, no help there, may try to call again.

 

Had a recent setback at the site before we had a chance to pull our cables. We suspect some water may have breeched the underground conduit and will drag some chamoises or rags through to determine how much and overall condition before we pull cables. If we have conncerns with future water collection problems in the underground conduit, should that influence our decision to use UTP vs. Coax? I'm thinking that can't be too good for the cables during the winter months if the water freezes, not sure which would have a greater tolerance.

 

Any advise?

 

Thanks,

BHG

[Soundy 1]

Thanks again Soundy... Not sure how to operate the Navco 8520-16 DVR, certainly didn't work the way I thought it would/should. So now I'm looking for Navco 8520-16 DVR User Guides. Was not able for find anything to download from the Navco web site. I spoke to someone at Navco, not sure if it was a technical person becuase they didn't seem all that technical during our conversation. They basically sent me a 1 page fax for a different model with tips on how to record onto a DVD. Basically, no help there, may try to call again.

 

Maybe scorpion can help you with that, he seems to have manuals for every DVR ever made

 

Had a recent setback at the site before we had a chance to pull our cables. We suspect some water may have breeched the underground conduit and will drag some chamoises or rags through to determine how much and overall condition before we pull cables. If we have conncerns with future water collection problems in the underground conduit, should that influence our decision to use UTP vs. Coax? I'm thinking that can't be too good for the cables during the winter months if the water freezes, not sure which would have a greater tolerance.

 

Any advise?

 

Water freezing on either type of cable won't be too healthy for it. Direct-burial rated cable would be safer in that regard, but the best solution would be to find the leak and fix it. It may be though, that some water simply got in through one open end of the conduit.