Are These Costs Excessive?

[MiamiRob 0]

(I hope I am posting this in the correct forum.)

 

Our security company would like to charge us the costs I have listed below to install access control equipment for my condominium Association. Are these charges reasonable or are they excessive? If the costs are not reasonable, what would be considered reasonable? I would really appreciate everyone's advice.

 

With parking garage gates and doors, we have 28 points of install for the access control system on our property. The system will be controlled by the security guards using a workstation in the lobby. There are also costs for the access control server hardware and software licenses, but I have not listed those here. (Although I am happy to do that if someone would like to see that info.)

 

The security company is proposing:

40% mark-up from wholesale cost on all hardware\equipment

25% markup on wholesale cost of wire ($20,625 total)

$300 per wire pull ($15,000 total)

$297.50 "trim labor" to install hardware on doors ($14,875 total)

$125 an hour to configure (165 hrs\$20,625 total. That averages out to about $425 per point of install))

 

 

Here are some detailed cost examples:

 

Example 1:

Vehicular entry gate to guest parking

1 - RF Receiver, Wholesale price $230 \ $320 our price

1 - DCD Board - wholesale price $315 \ $440 our price

Cable pull - $300

Trim labor - $297.50

Configuration (3 hours at $125 an hour) - $425

Total equipment cost for guest parking entry gate: $760

Total labor cost for guest parking entry gate: $1,022.50

Grand Total for guest parking entry gate: $1,782.50

 

Example 2:

Guard Room

1 - Card Reader, Wholesale price $230 \ $320 our price

1 - DCD Board - wholesale price $315 \ $440 our price

1 - Door Hardware - ELEC Egress Hardware and Hinge - Wholesale $740 \ $1,040 our price

1 - Door ajar contact - Wholesale price $11.45 \ $16.00 our price

Cable pull - $300

Trim labor - $297.50

Configuration (3 hours at $125 an hour) - $425

Total equipment cost for guard room door: $1,816

Total euipment cost for guard room door: $16.00

Total labor cost for guard room door: $1,022.50

Grand Total for guard room door: $2,838.50

 

Example 3

Exterior Door to Fire Stairwell

1 - Door ajar contact - Wholesale price $11.45 \ $16.00 our price

Cable pull - $300

Trim labor - $297.50

Configuration (3 hours at $125 an hour) - $425

Total equipment cost for guard room door: $16.00

Total labor cost for guard room door: $1,022.50

Grand Total for guard room door: $1,038.50

 

When installing security systems, how is cabling labor typically charged? Is it charged by the run or by the foot, etc? Would pulling two cables in the same conduit at the same time typically be charged at double the price of pulling on cable in a conduit?

 

I am happy to provide additional detail or clarification.

 

Thank you very much.

 

Rob

[Tailbone215 0]

Are they throwing in a case of Vaseline? If not you are getting screwed! While I must admit that does sound a bit high, it might not be due to the scope of work involved. How many installers/helpers and days will they be on site till this is fully turnkey? My feeling is this installer smells deep pockets. Get a few other estimates and try to be an educated consumer that has a basic idea of the scope of the project and its costs.

[scorpion 0]

I am curious! What do the other quotes show?

 

The question is not how much you are going to pay for it, the question is what do you get back over a period of time?

 

I do not understand where you have a wholesale price of $230.00 and they are charging retail of $320.00.

 

They can charge what ever price they choose to charge. Competition is what keeps prices within boundaries.

 

I believe we all at one time, or another have dealt with a situation where we received a low end repair job, and then soon regretted that the work was performed by them.

 

Now you realize the cheap value is no value. There are times you may have to go to another "professional" to fix the other's Mickey Mouse Repairs! Now you have spent your cash twice for the same repair.

 

I do not know the company, and I would be a fool to speak either way against, or for the company.

 

Other quotes will give you a better view of the big picture.

 

The question is..

What is their reputation? If there is a service call how quickly to they respond? How do they take care of their customers?

 

Cheap installation companies will only make money while they are installing. In other words if they stop to come back then they are not making money on the next job. They may be not be as helpful as you would like them to be, or they may not come back at all!

 

Those that charge more, but perform at great levels of service are worth their weight in gold! They charge more, but they are not licking every penny to keep running the business either.

 

There are those who charge too much, and never show up again, and never provide support. Those kind of bussiness cannot stay in one place for long as the reputation will get out real fast, and soon!

 

Those that have been in the business for a long time are dependent on the local community for survival. Lose that customer base, and you are done!

 

What kind of company are they? Where are they located? If they come in from another state then you WILL have problems getting them to come back for small issues.

 

Are they listed with the BBB?

 

Companies that work in a thin thread may not carry enough insurance, or have the right test equipment, or the right tools for the job, or they may not have the proper license.

 

When things go wrong, then this would not be the time to find out the company is of no value! What happens if their tech falls off a ladder? Who is paying? Do they have insurance, or is this guy working under the table? There may not be workmans comp!

 

I am not trying to talk bad about this company. I am trying to say they may not be the cheapest, but they may have the most value!

 

Do the techs have certifications? There are some certifications that require you to spend $1000.00, or more for them.

 

I bet they are running plenum wire! Plenum wire is not cheap! Another company may run different wire, but then that may be out of code! If there was a fire who is responcible? Watch the fingerpointing start!

 

Anyone can turn a wrench, and install products!

 

IDEA!

 

You should buy the product wholesale, and you should install it yourself! It cannot be that hard can it? How long would it take you to do it yourself? If something is dead out of the box you can always RMA it back!

 

Ask a friend of yours who runs a restaurant. Food cost is always in the 25% range (more likely 30%). Based on that thought then the 230 wholesale becomes $920.00! Yikes! $320 seems reasonable to a degree.

 

 

What percentage were you expecting for a mark up?

[MiamiRob 0]

Scorpion,

 

I understand the point that you are making. I assure you that I am in no way trying to get the system installed on the cheap. I am happy to pay well for excellent work.

 

We solicted three bids for the security system (camera and access control). The bids were from three excellent South Florida security companies. The bids ranged from about $300K to $400K. That pricing included an analog camera system running coax. In analyzing the bids, I found that the camera prices were marked up 300% to 400% in some cases. These are the prices they have been charging (and, during the boom, getting) to all condos in south florida. We selected one of the companies and began to work to refine the pricing and the systems. I had the company move the system to IP and we are now using Ioimage video analytic cameras on the perimeter. The cost for this much-improved system is actually less than the cost of the original analog system. However, the company is still making a very good profit.

 

Regarding the cable pricing, the cost of the cable is additional. Their markup on the cable is 25%. We are using plenum where appropriate. The camera system is being cabled with cat6. The access control system is being cabled with the appropriate cable for each piece of equipment.

 

In my corporate life, I would pay a company about $400 to supply and run a cat6 cable in existing conduit connecting the cable to a tech plate or card reader, etc. and then punching the cable down to the rack in the tech room. That pricing does not include configuring the new device into the system. Based on that pricing, for the security company to want to charge about $1,100 to install and configure a door contact at my condo building seem very high. The conduit already exists and has pull strings. We are willing to pay for the expertise that is required to install the system, but we expect to be treated fairly. (And the company working with us has every right to expect the same in return.)

 

I just think that paying about $1,100 (cable costs additional) to install a door contact is too much. Am I totally off-base in thinking that?

 

Rob

[scorpion 0]

I just think that paying about $1,100 (cable costs additional) to install a door contact is too much. Am I totally off-base in thinking that?

 

I see what you are saying now!

 

I misunderstood. I thought for the $1000 they would also set up the exit button, (or a motion detector), the card reader, (or a push button device), and also run wiring that would go to the computer that would track users with a data base, and install the magnet, and contact for the reader.

 

Are they pulling a multi cable in one sheath?

[MiamiRob 0]

Are they pulling a multi cable in one sheath?

 

No, they are just pulling a single cable for a door contact. The door is an exterior fire stairwell door. The door contact is being installed to make sure the no one leaves it open. Other than a door contract, no other equipment will be installed on the door.

 

The security company says that because their $1,000+ price (plus the cost of the wire) includes configuring the device in the security system, training the staff on how to monitor it, etc. that the price is justified.

 

Rob

[Guest]

Are they pulling a multi cable in one sheath?

 

No, they are just pulling a single cable for a door contact. The door is an exterior fire stairwell door. The door contact is being installed to make sure the no one leaves it open. Other than a door contract, no other equipment will be installed on the door.

 

The security company says that because their $1,000+ price (plus the cost of the wire) includes configuring the device in the security system, training the staff on how to monitor it, etc. that the price is justified.

 

Rob

 

I cannot comment on the relative costs in the US, but in the UK this quote would be considered high. Margins on kit for this project value would be currently be around 12% in the UK.

 

Looking at the labour costs, 165 hours to commission equates to around 4 man weeks!

 

I would recommend getting re-quotes for this project from installers accredited by the chosen manufacturer and/or consider using a consultant.

 

Take up references, check on how many engineers that will be used to install and maintain the job have formal qualifications and have trained by the manufacturer, do a finance check on companies and check insurance (and claim history).

 

Also ask the quoting companies for a proposed project plan and risk assessment/method statement.

 

Make sure the project has a decent retention that is payable after twelve months following handover and confirm maintenance costs for years two to five.

 

That should sort them out.

 

Regards

 

Ilkie

[Tailbone215 0]

 

I cannot comment on the relative costs in the US, but in the UK this quote would be considered high. Margins on kit for this project value would be currently be around 12% in the UK.

 

Looking at the labour costs, 165 hours to commission equates to around 4 man weeks!

 

I would recommend getting re-quotes for this project from installers accredited by the chosen manufacturer and/or consider using a consultant.

 

Take up references, check on how many engineers that will be used to install and maintain the job have formal qualifications and have trained by the manufacturer, do a finance check on companies and check insurance (and claim history).

 

Also ask the quoting companies for a proposed project plan and risk assessment/method statement.

 

Make sure the project has a decent retention that is payable after twelve months following handover and confirm maintenance costs for years two to five.

 

That should sort them out.

 

Regards

 

Ilkie

 

I must say this is very good advice! I think the issue here is this is a clear example of attempting to charg the end-user what the market will bear. Senile citizen homes and other sheltered communities are a cash cow in Florida. The original poster seems to have a good grasp on the scope of the work, we don't. My feeling is there's a lot of room for negotiation before committing to contract. I can safely say you'll have no problem getting this work done by them for 25% less what they are asking now. A lot of these commercial installs are insanely easy.

[ak357 0]

[quote name="Tailbone215

 

I must say this is very good advice! I think the issue here is this is a clear example of attempting to charg the end-user what the market will bear. Senile citizen homes and other sheltered communities are a cash cow in Florida. The original poster seems to have a good grasp on the scope of the work' date=' we don't. My feeling is there's a lot of room for negotiation before committing to contract. I can safely say you'll have no problem getting this work done by them for 25% less what they are asking now. A lot of these commercial installs are insanely easy.[/quote]

----------------------------------------------------

 

Tailbone may I ask you ?

 

Are u dealer, integrator or end user ?

[Tailbone215 0]

Tailbone may I ask you ?

 

Are u dealer, integrator or end user ?

 

Semi-retired.

[MiamiRob 0]

I appreciate all the good advice. Here is the current situation.

 

The security company, which is very reputable and stable, has wanted to use access control software from Millennium that does not currently integrate with ExacqVision, the software that will be used to control all the cameras. http://www.exacq.com/products/vms_software.html Not only does Millennium not integrate with Exacq, it does not offer a map\graphical view of alarms. Therefore, we are not going to use Keyscan System VII. We have about twenty-three doors and three gates. Keyscan seems like it will meet our needs.

 

We need to use Exacq because Ioimage cameras are being used on our perimeter and we need camera software that will work with these cameras. We are using the Ioimage PTZs and their wdc100dn fixed cameras. http://www.exacq.com/products/vms_software.html

 

I talked to the security company about installation charges. We did not talk about pricing in detail, but they now understand that while we are willing to pay good money for quality work, we are not going to pay costs that are too high. I think that the costs will be worked out. I am less worried about that. All the good advice I have read on this forum and all the generous help everyone has given and continues to give me is terrific.

 

Today, I talked to someone at Keyscan and he told me that our guards can run the client software using a browser if we pay for an $800 module. That is great because it will save us from having to pay our security company to install and configure the client software. All we have to do is start a browser and, assuming it has been configured, the software will work. The management office will have the actual Keyscan software installed on a workstation.

 

Today, I asked the Keyscan rep what common mistakes people make when then design a Keyscan system. He said that many people do not install door contacts because they don't want to pay the installer to do that. However, as all of you certainly know but I did not know, without a door contact on a door, the guards can't tell if a door closes after someone opens it with a key fob, etc. The Keyscan rep said that the door can look like it is closed on camera, but the door might not latch properly or something like that. A properly installed card reader can sense that the door is open. I realize all of you know that but to an amateur like me, these details are very interesting. The rep said that many people end up spending a lot of money to have the installers come back and install the contacts.

 

Rob

[scorpion 0]

 

I thought for the $1000 they would also set up the exit button, (or a motion detector), the card reader, (or a push button device), and also run wiring that would go to the computer that would track users with a data base, and install the magnet, and contact for the reader.

 

I am glad that you are getting good info that can save you money down the road!

 

The magnet, and contact can be used for other purposes as well. If someone were to stick an item in to the door, and the door frame then you would know that there is a problem. It could be a simple as a delivery person using their cell phone to hold open a door while they continue to get more packages, or someone trying to let someone else in to the door.

 

You can time a door to prevent "tailgating" where one person follows another person while the door is open. If the door is held open for too long then an "alert" can be sent. This will allow a security guard to look at the door camera to see if the others are authorized, or not.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_control

[MiamiRob 0]

 

You can time a door to prevent "tailgating" where one person follows another person while the door is open. If the door is held open for too long then an "alert" can be sent. This will allow a security guard to look at the door camera to see if the others are authorized, or not.

 

Thank you, Scorpion. That is very interesting and I will make sure that our system has the doors properly timed.

 

Do access control systems integrate with fire systems? Is it possible for fire alarms to appear on access control displays?

 

Rob

[Tailbone215 0]

Do access control systems integrate with fire systems? Is it possible for fire alarms to appear on access control displays?

 

Rob

 

Anything is possible, but why would you want this? Fire alarm systems are separate standalone systems that are complex enough without integrating them into questionable quality CCTV/access systems.. If you feel the need to have total monitoring you can have remote satellite annunciator panels installed at key locations by your fire alarm company, which you probably already have. The other question is the fire alarm system remotely or locally monitored? . Simplex and Edwards makes some really nice annunciators.

[tomcctv 190]

Do access control systems integrate with fire systems? Is it possible for fire alarms to appear on access control displays?

 

Rob

 

Anything is possible, but why would you want this? Fire alarm systems are separate standalone systems that are complex enough without integrating them into questionable quality CCTV/access systems.. If you feel the need to have total monitoring you can have remote satellite annunciator panels installed at key locations by your fire alarm company, which you probably already have. The other question is the fire alarm system remotely or locally monitored? . Simplex and Edwards makes some really nice annunciators.

 

it is important to have any door entry/exit system linked to a fire system the last thing you want in a fire are doors locked trapping people and also fire service getting in. you dont want the fire system to open doors as soon as it is activated. but if another fire alert device (2 alarms active) or fire alarm active for over a certain amount of time say 5mins it opens doors. but this is something that you can talk to your local fire dept about.

 

Miamirob. i would just like to say what a good job you are doing. i have been reading your posts since you started your project and it has been very good reading.

[jeromephone 6]

You mentioned KEYSCAN we have used them for some big projects and the company,product and software are great. The system allows multiple users to be logged in you can give your security people the ability to open or lock doors remotly. there are many features but the best is there tech support. In some cases I would look into door hardware that has a supervised strike. This will indicate that the strike is in place in case someone tapes the strike back and closes the door with a regluar door position switch.

[Tailbone215 0]

it is important to have any door entry/exit system linked to a fire system the last thing you want in a fire are doors locked trapping people and also fire service getting in. you dont want the fire system to open doors as soon as it is activated. but if another fire alert device (2 alarms active) or fire alarm active for over a certain amount of time say 5mins it opens doors. but this is something that you can talk to your local fire dept about.

 

Maybe I misunderstood what the OP said "Is it possible for fire alarms to appear on access control displays?" I'm assuming he is looking for simple visual indications on the same screen without control of doors. Maybe just to save desk space? I'm not seeing the benefit of this other than to satisfy a curiosity and possibly a redundancy of an annunciator panel that should be in the same room/station where personal will be monoriting.

 

For fire/life safety the door access overrides is best suited to be controlled via fire panel using dry contacts and programming parameters per local, state, and national fire codes will have to be adhered to.

 

Miamirob. i would just like to say what a good job you are doing. i have been reading your posts since you started your project and it has been very good reading.

 

I totally agree! great info and I wish him the best in getting this system streamlined and integrated.

[MiamiRob 0]

Do access control systems integrate with fire systems? Is it possible for fire alarms to appear on access control displays?

 

Rob

 

Anything is possible, but why would you want this? Fire alarm systems are separate standalone systems that are complex enough without integrating them into questionable quality CCTV/access systems.. If you feel the need to have total monitoring you can have remote satellite annunciator panels installed at key locations by your fire alarm company, which you probably already have. The other question is the fire alarm system remotely or locally monitored? . Simplex and Edwards makes some really nice annunciators.

 

Tailbone,

 

I asked about the fire alarm system integrating with the security system because our building will be replacing our fire panel sometime in the next couple of years. Our building was built in 1983 and the fire panel is the original panel installed at that time. I want to make sure that I should not be having the security company install some conduit, cabling, some device, etc., now for future use with a new fire panel.

 

I am having a conduit run from the room where the fire panel is located to the main tech room. The main tech room will contain the servers for the camera and access control system as well as the main panels for the access control. I am assuming if any connection has to be made between the fire panel and the access control system that it would have to be made between the fire panel room and the main tech room.

 

I don't have any interest in connecting the access control or camera systems to the the fire panel. I just want to make sure that I'm not missing something or neglecting to install something that should be installed that is not on the plans. But from what you and others have written, it sounds like I don't need to worry about installing additional equipment to make any current or future access control to fire system connection. (Other than what is required by current Code and the security company should understand how to handle that.)

 

Rob

[MiamiRob 0]

 

Miamirob. i would just like to say what a good job you are doing. i have been reading your posts since you started your project and it has been very good reading.

 

Thank you tomcctv. That's very nice of you to say. The progress I have made with my building's system design would never have happened without all the great input that you and others on this site have so generously provided. I am sincerely appreciative.

 

Rob

[MiamiRob 0]

You mentioned KEYSCAN we have used them for some big projects and the company,product and software are great. The system allows multiple users to be logged in you can give your security people the ability to open or lock doors remotly. there are many features but the best is there tech support. In some cases I would look into door hardware that has a supervised strike. This will indicate that the strike is in place in case someone tapes the strike back and closes the door with a regluar door position switch.

 

Does a supervised strike cost a lot more than a normal strike to buy and\or to install? It sounds like a great idea. I never even thought about the possibility of someone preventing a door from locking by taping the strike back.

 

Rob

[Tailbone215 0]

I asked about the fire alarm system integrating with the security system because our building will be replacing our fire panel sometime in the next couple of years. Our building was built in 1983 and the fire panel is the original panel installed at that time. I want to make sure that I should not be having the security company install some conduit, cabling, some device, etc., now for future use with a new fire panel.

 

This is definitely an area where you need consult the prospective fire system company in the immediate future, especially if you are considering proprietary equipment such as Simplex/Grinell. Without looking at you particular installation I would bet you have the basic infrastructure already installed, at least cabling to run MAPNET II bus. Of course, with panel change comes the need to update all devices on the system to meet current code since the chances of what you now have will not be allowed to be grandfathered in.

 

I am having a conduit run from the room where the fire panel is located to the main tech room. The main tech room will contain the servers for the camera and access control system as well as the main panels for the access control. I am assuming if any connection has to be made between the fire panel and the access control system that it would have to be made between the fire panel room and the main tech room.

 

Great strategy as it is always a great idea to add extra access or conduit if you already have the walls open. It's a safe bet that any connection you need made to your fire system can be made anywhere on the comm bus, especially if it is of recent vintage (10-15 years).

 

I don't have any interest in connecting the access control or camera systems to the the fire panel. I just want to make sure that I'm not missing something or neglecting to install something that should be installed that is not on the plans. But from what you and others have written, it sounds like I don't need to worry about installing additional equipment to make any current or future access control to fire system connection. (Other than what is required by current Code and the security company should understand how to handle that.)

 

Rob

 

I didn't think your were adding anything to the fire system since you didn't mention locations that are using magnetic locks or anything that goes above and beyond a typical access control system.

 

On a side note. If you aren't already using a Knox Box system in your building you might want to look into it. We recommend these to property owners that don't have 24/7 staffing with full access to all vital areas during an emergency situation. Great way to minimise property damage when firefighters or EMTs need immediate access.

 

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/Fire/Fire+Prevention+Bureau/Knox+Box+Program.htm

 

Good luck and keep us posted with your progress.