Infrared Illumination - Basic Questions

[wirefox 0]

Hello, trying to learn more about Infrared Illuminators per se.

 

We have some AXIS cameras and are also looking into getting an Arecont AV3110.

How do you find the correct illuminator for "night vision" for a specific camera?

When I researched around, I did not see specs that say Illuminator "compatible with model "X".

 

Specifically, I know we would like to get a illuminator for an AXIS Q1755 and one for an Arecont AV3110. How do you find one for either?

I googled all over , checked out Arecont's site but no clues for how to attain the right Infrared Illuminator. Or whether it should be a housing solution or stand alone.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[thewireguys 3]

http://www.rayteccctv.com/

[wirefox 0]

Thank you Wireguys. I appreciate the link and have checked out their site but as a noob to the subject, the reply of a link alone to me seemed quite broad if not cryptic.

[zmxtech 0]

I run a Q1755 and a bunch of Arecont DN`s and they all are very good with IR [850]

tho the Areconts menu is not as nice as the Axis. and I dont think the having the shutter in 'ms' makes sense ?

 

I have had both in "ANPR mode" with fast shutters and IR, the zoom on the Q1755 gets in there

but it has problems focusing at night [even with the cut filter off] you have to lock the focus.

 

That's why I have to give it to the Arecont the fixed DN IR lenses will win every time -on the Q1755 it has enough focus shift to make it worthless

unless you lock it in an leave it. so color during the day nope... ah very frustrating.

tho there is a new cam the 1344 that should fix that. be grabbing one soon.

 

Sorry not a fan of R@#MaX -expensive,very average, high postage costs [like $200 !] gimme IR litestorm any day....

[wirefox 0]

Cheers mate. Really appreciate it.

 

Forgive my noobness, An IR 850 , may I ask who manufactures that, so I can look up the specs and prices?

[wirefox 0]

OK, I've been doing my research and understand what you mean by IR 850 , D'oh and I thought it was a model or make. Well we all start out noobed I suppose.

 

Question please.

 

What would be the best sort of IR for a dome camera?

 

A bullet, cube ( may be overkill for the area specified and doesn't work for the low budget or a dome IR. I suppose a dome IR for a dome camera would be odd?

 

Specifically I am looking for a IR to work with an Arecont AV3110DN.

 

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[Guest]

OK, I've been doing my research and understand what you mean by IR 850 , D'oh and I thought it was a model or make. Well we all start out noobed I suppose.

 

Question please.

 

What would be the best sort of IR for a dome camera?

 

A bullet, cube ( may be overkill for the area specified and doesn't work for the low budget or a dome IR. I suppose a dome IR for a dome camera would be odd?

 

Specifically I am looking for a IR to work with an Arecont AV3110DN.

 

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

 

Back to basics.

 

IR is light that is mostly outside the range of human vision and is with all light is expressed as a wavelength.

 

Cameras are design to replicate the human eye during day time use so a filter is installed to block IR light. A day night camera removes the filter for night use to allow the benefit of IR light to be used in the picture.

 

However camera sensitivity varies with some camera being better (more efficient) as the light wavelength increases.

 

When designing IR systems you can request the camera sensitivity chart from the manufacturer to see how well the camera will perform using 780nm, 840nm or 900nm+ IR light.

 

You also need to consider the effective angle of width that the scene will require and match this to the lens.

 

You should consider IR corrected lenses to minimise focus shift.

 

Domes are available with IR illuminators but they tend to be at the higher end of the price scale.

 

Hope this helps

 

Ilkie

 

Risk assessment warning!

Forgot to say, big IR lamps can be dangerous. Just because you cannot see the light doesn't mean it will not damage your eyes!

[cglaeser 0]

About a year ago I researched this same topic. I contacted technical support at several security camera and IR manufacturers, and asked questions and reviewed posts on this other other forums. I spent hours on the phone researching this. Here's the bottom line. There are virtually no specifications that are of much help regarding power requirements and effective ranges. In photography, we know precisely how a camera and lens and lighting will perform, but in CCTV, it's pretty much left to experience.

 

For example, I have an Axis 223m in poorly lit 50' driveway. No one could tell me which product would be required to see effectively to the end of the driveway. I had to purchase a RayMAX 50 and complete the install to determine that it was an adequate solution. If someone has experience with the particular camera and/or IR, great. Ask them questions. But data sheets are pretty much useless in this regard.

 

Best,

Christopher

[wirefox 0]

ilk and cglaeser(Christopher) my sincere gratitude for sharing your experience. It is of great help to me. Thank you!

 

Since the camera I am opting for, the AV3110DN, is a dome camera and doesn't seem to come with an IR illuminator, I suppose I will have to opt for a bullet IR of sorts.

[ak357 0]

About a year ago I researched this same topic. I contacted technical support at several security camera and IR manufacturers, and asked questions and reviewed posts on this other other forums. I spent hours on the phone researching this. Here's the bottom line. There are virtually no specifications that are of much help regarding power requirements and effective ranges. In photography, we know precisely how a camera and lens and lighting will perform, but in CCTV, it's pretty much left to experience.

 

For example, I have an Axis 223m in poorly lit 50' driveway. No one could tell me which product would be required to see effectively to the end of the driveway. I had to purchase a RayMAX 50 and complete the install to determine that it was an adequate solution. If someone has experience with the particular camera and/or IR, great. Ask them questions. But data sheets are pretty much useless in this regard.

 

Best,

Christopher

 

You probably looking for info like this

 

 

Arecont 3130 Quantum Efficiency Monochrome

[cglaeser 0]

You probably looking for info like this

 

No, not really. Suppose you wanted to illuminate a subject at 50'. Would you need a RayMAX 25, 50, or 100? That chart does not help with real world questions.

 

Photography solved this problem many years ago. You can mix and match film, lenses, and lighting from different manufacturers and set shutter speed, aperture, and other settings, and expect to get perfect exposure. Not so in the security industry. You can't design the lighting based on numbers and know in advance the exposure will be spot on. You have to ask others for their experiences, or try it yourself and see if it works.

 

Best,

Christopher

[Guest]

About a year ago I researched this same topic. I contacted technical support at several security camera and IR manufacturers, and asked questions and reviewed posts on this other other forums. I spent hours on the phone researching this. Here's the bottom line. There are virtually no specifications that are of much help regarding power requirements and effective ranges. In photography, we know precisely how a camera and lens and lighting will perform, but in CCTV, it's pretty much left to experience.

 

For example, I have an Axis 223m in poorly lit 50' driveway. No one could tell me which product would be required to see effectively to the end of the driveway. I had to purchase a RayMAX 50 and complete the install to determine that it was an adequate solution. If someone has experience with the particular camera and/or IR, great. Ask them questions. But data sheets are pretty much useless in this regard.

 

Best,

Christopher

 

You probably looking for info like this

 

 

Arecont 3130 Quantum Efficiency Monochrome

 

This chart helps a lot.

 

It tells you that the camera has poor effectiveness to higher wavelength (or black) IR illumination.

 

Also the line on the chart should be as flat as possible within the visible light range.

 

Reading from the chart at 850nm you only have 20% efficacy and at 940nm you have about 8%.

 

Coupled with information regarding the lens efficiency should give you an idea on what size IR illuminator you need.

 

Otherwise send this information to the IR illuminator manufacturer and ask them to work it out.

 

But you do need this chart.

 

Ilkie

[cglaeser 0]

Reading from the chart at 850nm you only have 20% efficacy and at 940nm you have about 8%.

 

20% of an unknown is still an unknown.

 

Coupled with information regarding the lens efficiency should give you an idea on what size IR illuminator you need.

 

I disagree. The information in this chart is of little use in making an actual model selection and purchase of an IR illuminator with full confidence that the subjects will be properly exposed at a given distance. In photography, when selecting a film or a lens or a flash for a camera, there are industry specifications (e.g. ISO, guide number, etc) that make it easy to get perfect exposure. There is no such industry standard for IR illuminators, and proper exposure is largely done using the installer's experience and/or the experiences of others.

 

Best,

Christopher

[Guest]

Reading from the chart at 850nm you only have 20% efficacy and at 940nm you have about 8%.

 

20% of an unknown is still an unknown.

 

Coupled with information regarding the lens efficiency should give you an idea on what size IR illuminator you need.

 

I disagree. The information in this chart is of little use in making an actual model selection and purchase of an IR illuminator with full confidence that the subjects will be properly exposed at a given distance. In photography, when selecting a film or a lens or a flash for a camera, there are industry specifications (e.g. ISO, guide number, etc) that make it easy to get perfect exposure. There is no such industry standard for IR illuminators, and proper exposure is largely done using the installer's experience and/or the experiences of others.

 

Best,

Christopher

 

I agree that the lack of standards is a problem.

 

This is a major issue now and in the future for our industry (you only have to look at the problems caused by lack of standards of IP cameras!)

 

The chart does have a use when comparing likely camera performance.

 

When choosing camera models, the one that has a more efficient spectual response in the wavelength selected is likey to perform better (all other factors remaining equal) than the camera that shows less eficancy in the spectual range.

 

This can be the starting point in the design process, but I agree that you also need exprience to get camera/lens/lighting set up correctly.

 

I would suggest that you have to have starting point for the design process and manufacturers' data (if available, not all camera suppliers will offer this information) will be the place to begin.

 

Regards

 

Ilkie

[rory 0]

Extreme CCTV (now Bosch)

 

 

[cglaeser 0]

I would suggest that you have to have starting point for the design process and manufacturers' data (if available, not all camera suppliers will offer this information) will be the place to begin.

 

Yes, well, the rubber meets the road when you actually place an order. Quality IR Illuminators are not cheap, and the cost increases with power output. If you purchase an IR Illuminator that is either under powered or over powered for the intended use, that is money wasted. Currently, installer experience is the only reliable method for ensuring the right model is selected.

 

Best,

Christopher

[cglaeser 0]

Extreme CCTV (now Bosch)

 

 

 

Beam pattern charts are helpful in a couple of ways. First, it's an easy way to present the coverage area of a beam pattern at a given distance, and second, it's an easy way to present the difference in effective distance relative to each beam pattern. It's worth noting that both of these concepts can be presented independent of the manufacturer.

 

However, the actual distances in these charts are arbitrary, and each manufacturer just picks an arbitrary base distance for a given output, which is completely independent of distances reported by any other manufacturer. Which is to say, these charts can not be used to determine if an illuminator from one manufacturer will have more reach than an illuminator from another manufacturer, or if a particular illuminator is the best match for a particular security camera. In contrast, photographers use guide numbers, which is an industry standard for specifying the power output of the flash. This allows photographers to purchase flash heads from any manufacturer and know in advance what the exposure will be at a given distance.

 

I repeat. Manufacturer specifications do not provide the information you need to select the best IR illuminator for a particular security camera. Selecting the best match requires trial and error and experience.

 

Best,

Christopher

[rory 0]

 

Beam pattern charts are helpful in a couple of ways. First, it's an easy way to present the coverage area of a beam pattern at a given distance, and second, it's an easy way to present the difference in effective distance relative to each beam pattern. It's worth noting that both of these concepts can be presented independent of the manufacturer.

 

However, the actual distances in these charts are arbitrary, and each manufacturer just picks an arbitrary base distance for a given output, which is completely independent of distances reported by any other manufacturer. Which is to say, these charts can not be used to determine if an illuminator from one manufacturer will have more reach than an illuminator from another manufacturer, or if a particular illuminator is the best match for a particular security camera. In contrast, photographers use guide numbers, which is an industry standard for specifying the power output of the flash. This allows photographers to purchase flash heads from any manufacturer and know in advance what the exposure will be at a given distance.

 

I repeat. Manufacturer specifications do not provide the information you need to select the best IR illuminator for a particular security camera. Selecting the best match requires trial and error and experience.

 

Best,

Christopher

 

Well the funny thing is, these charts were pretty much spot on.

ive used both illuminators and in fact the UF100 chart I created myself based off the UF500 chart and my measurements while using various UF100 models, and only ever posted it online a few years ago after Extreme CCTV tech cooberated the chart. So I dont know how other manufacturers do it, but these were perfect when specifying these particular products. However not all illuminators are alike so obviously this will not work for other models even from the same brand.

[cglaeser 0]

Well the funny thing is, these charts were pretty much spot on.

 

Regarding "spot on", you never mentioned a camera. It's apparent from your reply that we are talking about two entirely different topics. I'm talking about matching cameras and IR illuminators, which is not possible without mentioning, um, a camera. Consider the fact that sensor sensitivity is improving each design cycle. That would mean that if these charts are spot on today, they will be off by a factor of 2 in 18 to 36 months.

 

I think you need to be a photographer to appreciate the specifications to which I'm referring.

 

Best,

Christopher

[rory 0]

Well the funny thing is, these charts were pretty much spot on.

 

Regarding "spot on", you never mentioned a camera. It's apparent from your reply that we are talking about two entirely different topics. I'm talking about matching cameras and IR illuminators, which is not possible without mentioning, um, a camera. Consider the fact that sensor sensitivity is improving each design cycle. That would mean that if these charts are spot on today, they will be off by a factor of 2 in 18 to 36 months.

 

I think you need to be a photographer to appreciate the specifications to which I'm referring.

 

Best,

Christopher

 

What are you talking about?? These are illuminators, that is the light they produce, obviously the camera has to be good enough to see that light. One doesn't have to be a photographer to realize that.

[cglaeser 0]

What are you talking about??

 

Uncle.

 

Actually, this discussion has been helpful for me. Industry standards for specifying light output have existed before Ansel Adams used his first Brownie. I've long been puzzled why there were no such standard specifications for IR illuminators in the security industry. I now have a much better understanding as to why.

 

Best,

Christopher

[zmxtech 0]

Your better off buying more IR as it can be dialed down, you cant dial up a lenses F or the cameras CCD tho you can change them.

 

Most IR illuminator companies are heavy on sales light on experience with a high price tag to boot.

 

IR is a black art and you need to match all the equipment for a good picture this comes down to lots testing/expense.You cant leave all your

cameras on auto and hope for the best.

 

IR is very over-rated but has its place, LED white lighting will win every time -if you want ID the offender or car.

 

Scenario:

back of warehouse very dark @3am in the morning the bad guys turn up in a car park in the darkness they walk up to the door and start trying to get in

 

example 1 IR bullet/dome system -an overveiw camera [99% of all systems]

You get : grainy black and white shots from a distance you can tell what happened -but cant ID anything [maybe the shape of the car] no colors

Even if you have a IR camera close, it will look like zombies are attacking. Getting ID`s from IR pictures is very hard.

 

example 2 Basic IP camera 1-3mp with a White light system and sensor to turn it on. [no! spotlights wont do their color temp is crap]

You get startled offenders and nice color shot of the car and the offenders, so they run away and speed off. because of the resolution you get the plate.

Even if they don't care about the light [in some cases] you still have great evidence and can show the police.

Do you know how many times I pull footage from DVRs of B&W pics of creeps at night that are about 1cm in height on the screen the police just roll their eyes....

 

Only a few months ago I put a AXIS M1031 with built in LED white light securing a front door and baseball bat wielding thieves smashed though the door the police had smiles on their faces they knew who it was !

 

so don't get too enthoooooosed about IR there are better solutions.

 

my 2c

[cglaeser 0]

IR is a black art and you need to match all the equipment for a good picture this comes down to lots testing/expense.

 

A simple industry standard similar to ISO and guide numbers at, say, 850 nm would make it possible to match an IR illuminator to a camera. Without such a standard, matching the equipment does require testing, and yes, this trial and error can be expensive. However, I think I have a good understanding as to why the status quo is what it is.

 

Before the advent of today's digicams with an array of auto features and instant exposure feedback of the image display, professionals such as wedding photographers needed a system whereby they could mix and match films, lenses, and light sources and have confidence that every image would be properly exposed with developed. Wedding photographers were not only familiar with the inverse square law, but they could do inverse square calculations in their head while posing the bride for the next shot. A simple system of ISO, f-stop, shutter speed, and guide number made these conversions relatively easy, and more important, provide perfect exposure for every image.

 

The situation is very different in security cameras. First, concepts such as guide numbers are foreign to the typical security camera installer. (The confusion is readily apparent in this and related threads). Installers are never going to request specifications from manufacturers if they don't even know what those specifications mean or how to use them. Second, and perhaps more important, the need for trial and error is actually a benefit for installers. OK, so the installer had to purchase several Extremes and/or several RayMAX illuminators to determine which light source works best with each camera. The installer spends an extra grand or so to determine ISO/guide number equivalents for some cameras and illuminators. That expense is part of learning one's trade. No big deal.

 

This is only a problem for the DIY, who wants to purchase one camera and one illuminator with the confidence they are a good match and does not want to budget for all the trial and error.

 

Best,

Christopher

[rory 0]

the reason we used Extreme's IR was because it ALWAYS works, as specked, the only issue would be if the camera could not see the IR properly and then if anything it would mean using a better camera, not changing the IR source. So no, when using high end IR products it is not trial and error, they work, as they say they do (once the installer knows about IR), cameras on the other hand can be trial and error, but in many cases one can get around that also by simply looking at the cameras Spectral Response and using a decent brand of camera, and ofcourse making sure it is a True Day Night or BW only camera .. lower res is actually better with IR also.

 

That said, I cant speak for IP cameras.

[cglaeser 0]

That said, I cant speak for IP cameras.

 

With all due respect, and I sincerely do mean that, you don't understand what I'm talking about. If you did, you would know that it is not possible to separate camera sensitivity from the equation. In those charts that you posted, light does not just stop at a certain distance. What those distances are meant to imply is that the camera will be properly exposed out to that distance. But, at what sensitivity? That's that part that is missing, and the part that I've been trying to explain. If a Samsung ultra low light 745 were combined with an f/1.0 and an Extreme, we would expect the 745 to have good exposure much much farther than those charts suggest. That's the part I'm trying to explain. These charts are not "grounded" to any f number sensitivity. So, if you get a poor camera, the distances are less, a good camera, the distances are close, an ultra low light camera, the distances are short, and in the future, when sensitivities are improved, much too short. That's my point. These charts are not tied to any "ISO equivalent", so as the sensitivity changes, so do the distances. If the distances are different for different cameras, then these charts can not be used to match a camera and IR illuminator. Experience is required to know that this or that camera will work.

 

Here is an article "Demystifying Flash Guide Numbers" that should prove useful.

 

http://www.vividlight.com/Articles/1214.htm

 

The two most important sentences in the article are:

 

It seems many people do not have an understanding of what guide numbers are, and how they are effectively used.

 

a flash unit’s guide number indicates how much light the unit will emit in relation to a standard film speed.

 

Please note the "in relation to a standard film speed". Aside from everything else that has been said, do you understand the implications of that sentence?

 

Best,

Christopher