What Kind of PC based DVR should I build?

[caltbaum 0]

Hello,

 

First time posting.

 

I currently have a Digital Sprite 2 for 16 cameras at my jewelry store. I am adding 4 more cameras and obviously I will need another DVR to view all cameras over the internet. I am thinking of building a PC Server to house all my DVR needs instead of buying another DVR.

 

My questions are these;

What kind of processor will I need?

What kind of hardrives should I buy?

What is the best card and software?

Do I need a good graphics card?

Do I need 2 cards because of the numbers of cameras?

My cameras run off RG59 and AC, do I need some kind of MIDI adaptor?

 

I am thinking I should have a PC so if I need to upgrade in the future I can swap out what I need.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks, Chris

[tomcctv 190]

Hello,

 

First time posting.

 

I currently have a Digital Sprite 2 for 16 cameras at my jewelry store. I am adding 4 more cameras and obviously I will need another DVR to view all cameras over the internet. I am thinking of building a PC Server to house all my DVR needs instead of buying another DVR.

 

My questions are these;

What kind of processor will I need?

What kind of hardrives should I buy?

What is the best card and software?

Do I need a good graphics card?

Do I need 2 cards because of the numbers of cameras?

My cameras run off RG59 and AC, do I need some kind of MIDI adaptor?

 

I am thinking I should have a PC so if I need to upgrade in the future I can swap out what I need.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks, Chris

 

Hi chris. i would tend to look at going hybrid dvr. it will save you money in the long run. with going hybrid you can stay with your existing cameras but replace 3 or 4 of them with good ip cameras that will give you more coverage. and also what i do for jewelry stores is also install a internal ptz so as your staff can follow suspect customers. the cost of a hybrid dvr will be a lot less than building your own server and adding adaptors to your existing cameras as you would also need switchers and a good internal network.

[caltbaum 0]

Thank you Tom,

 

So I am looking at a Geovision GV1480E-32 PCI Express Card (960FPS). I would like to upgrade it to a 32CH. Would this be a good solution? What kind of backup system should I have for HD storage?

 

I will consider adding a PTZ or two. Some of my cameras are about 5 years old and I will probably have to upgrade them not to mention some of the RG59 in the walls are 15 years+ old.

 

Chris

[tomcctv 190]

Thank you Tom,

 

So I am looking at a Geovision GV1480E-32 PCI Express Card (960FPS). I would like to upgrade it to a 32CH. Would this be a good solution? What kind of backup system should I have for HD storage?

 

I will consider adding a PTZ or two. Some of my cameras are about 5 years old and I will probably have to upgrade them not to mention some of the RG59 in the walls are 15 years+ old.

 

Chris

 

 

storage depends on how much footage you need to store. in a jewelry store i would look for no less than 14 days.

were are you based

[Soundy 1]

Hello,

 

First time posting.

 

I currently have a Digital Sprite 2 for 16 cameras at my jewelry store. I am adding 4 more cameras and obviously I will need another DVR to view all cameras over the internet. I am thinking of building a PC Server to house all my DVR needs instead of buying another DVR.

 

Good choice, especially with the amount of storage you're likely to need. You've left out one very important criteria, and that is, what's your budget?

 

I'll work on the assumption that you want to spend a fair bit on a good system.

 

My questions are these;

What kind of processor will I need?

 

The most powerful one you can afford. Sounds trite, but with the level of cameras you're dealing with, you'll want as much future-proofing as possible.

 

What kind of hardrives should I buy?

 

Ideally, enterprise-grade. Realistically, just about any brand-name SATA drives should do.

 

The real trick, if you want reliability, is to go with a RAID setup, ideally RAID5 or RAID6 - with that, even if a drive fails, you can replace it without shutting things down and without losing data (RAID6 allows two drives to fail without data loss).

 

What is the best card and software?

 

If you're building your own, GeoVision is a popular way to go. Not my favorite, but there are certainly worse out there.

 

If you want an excellent turnkey package, Vigil is a great choice for a 32-channel hybrid system.

 

Do I need a good graphics card?

 

No. You're not dealing with 3D graphics or anything advanced like that. Any good modern PCI-e card should do nicely. Most of the systems I build just use the on-board video chip.

 

Do I need 2 cards because of the numbers of cameras?

 

Depends on the card... there are 32-channel models out there.

 

My cameras run off RG59 and AC, do I need some kind of MIDI adaptor?

 

No - that's what the DVR card is for. (MIDI, by the way, stands for Musical Instrument Digital Interface - unless you're hooking up MIDI-capable synths or something, you don't need MIDI).

 

I am thinking I should have a PC so if I need to upgrade in the future I can swap out what I need.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks, Chris

 

That's good thinking. More importantly, a PC gives you far more options for expanding drive space.

 

Tom's suggesting of a PTZ or two is a good one, IF you have someone who can be sitting watching the system to control it. If not, you might want to consider a 360-degree panoramic megapixel camera, such as those made by Mobotix or Arecont. Instead of only recording what the lens is pointed at at any given moment, they record continually in a 360-degree radius, and you can zoom in on any area of the scene either live OR on the recording.

 

On that subject, you might look at replacing some of all of your existing cameras with megapixel IP cameras - they'll not only give far more detail, but in some instances, one megapixel camera can take the place of two, three, or even four old analog cameras (depending on the store layout, of course). If you go all-IP, you can do away with the need for a DVR card and just build an NVR machine (all the video data then comes in over the network). You could also go this route, and use video servers, small boxes that digitize the video from analog cameras and put it on the network.

 

As for the 15-year-old wiring, there's no reason it shouldn't still be fine, as long as it hasn't been exposed to weather or anything.

[Soundy 1]

Thank you Tom,

 

So I am looking at a Geovision GV1480E-32 PCI Express Card (960FPS). I would like to upgrade it to a 32CH. Would this be a good solution?

I'm not familiar with GV's product line, but that model number suggests to me that it IS a 32-channel card. 960fps would give you 30fps on each of 32 channels (the storage for that would also be ridiculous).

 

What kind of backup system should I have for HD storage?

We've been using RAID arrays from QNAP and been very happy with their performance and ease of installation. Load it up with drives, configure as RAID5, and you're good to go - as I said, with RAID5, any one drive can die, and you can hot-swap it without shutting down and without losing data. The drawback is that you lose the capacity of one drive (that space is used for the redundancy data), so four 2TB drives, for example, would give you 6TB of actual capacity.

[caltbaum 0]

Well, I figure my budget should be $2-3k. My main concern is for the future. I don't want to have to upgrade the system in another two years. I want it to last awhile.

I also want enough storage say 2TB and a high enough resolution that I won't be wishing for more. I need face shots that are great, and I want to record transactions that involve small items(jewelry). Thank you all for responding, I am looking into RAID as well right now.

 

Chris

[Soundy 1]

Well, $2-$3k would get you into a basic Vigil (I think about $3500 for a 32-channel, 120fps system) with 1TB internal drive. You won't get into megapixel for that, not if you're replacing your DVR as well.

 

What kind of POS systems are you using? Many of them can be interfaced to some DVRs and the DVRs will then log the POS data synchronized to the video.

 

Can you maybe do up a quick sketch of the floor layout and current camera positions? 20 cameras is a LOT for a simple retail floor plan, it's possible with good positioning of the right cameras, you can get away with a lot fewer. Be sure to note if there are outside windows/doors that present strong backlighting, as that will affect camera selection as well.

[caltbaum 0]

Well, $2-$3k would get you into a basic Vigil (I think about $3500 for a 32-channel, 120fps system) with 1TB internal drive. You won't get into megapixel for that, not if you're replacing your DVR as well.

 

What kind of POS systems are you using? Many of them can be interfaced to some DVRs and the DVRs will then log the POS data synchronized to the video.

 

Can you maybe do up a quick sketch of the floor layout and current camera positions? 20 cameras is a LOT for a simple retail floor plan, it's possible with good positioning of the right cameras, you can get away with a lot fewer. Be sure to note if there are outside windows/doors that present strong backlighting, as that will affect camera selection as well.

 

To clarify, I am planning on spending $2-3k for a new DVR that will handle 32 cameras. I am not going to use my current DVR, Digital Sprite 2.

 

Our store is not like a typical POS style store. We have 4 main desks that I want to record transactions at. No registers where one transaction takes place. I have looked into where I could combine cameras and the floor plan is just too large in my opinion. I could sketch a plan FYI, I don't think I can upload here on the post but I could PM.

 

In my business I think the more cameras the better. I don't mind spending the money if it makes sense and I feel better when I watch everything on my computer from my office. We do have lots of windows that light can be an issue but I only see 2 cameras where light can be a problem.

 

My main concern is covering each desk to get good facial shots and what is sitting on the desk in front of the customer and my employees. Like I said before, I need high resolution type cameras and DVR so if there is a problem I am not wishing I had better quality.

 

As far as megapixel goes, what is the major difference between this and what is pretty standard in cameras?

I suppose I can start "googling" but I would rather have someone with experience tell me.

 

I was just looking at the 3xLOGIC Vigil PRO Series H.264. The specs seem pretty impressive. Am I looking at the wrong type of machine for my needs? How much is this? How can I find a "authorized dealer" since their website doesn't seem to have a function to find one? Is this system an "overkill"?

 

Chris

[Soundy 1]

My main concern is covering each desk to get good facial shots and what is sitting on the desk in front of the customer and my employees. Like I said before, I need high resolution type cameras and DVR so if there is a problem I am not wishing I had better quality.

 

As far as megapixel goes, what is the major difference between this and what is pretty standard in cameras?

I suppose I can start "googling" but I would rather have someone with experience tell me.

 

Well... imagine the difference between a pocket digital camera from ten years ago and one from today.

 

Take a browse through this thread: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11322

 

For a couple of my own examples: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11322&start=164 (note: click each picture to get a full-size version - the MP images are a lot larger than they display there!)

 

Also.... this is from a standard analog dome cam at CIF (352x240) resolution (and granted, it is a CHEAP dome cam):

 

This is from an IQ511 1.3MP camera mounted directly above it (you can see the cheap dome bottom-left in the frame). The IQ has a non-megapixel 2.8mm lens on it, so it's not as sharp as it could be with the proper lens. Again, click the picture for a full-size version:

 

From the same store, a similar analog camera at 4CIF (704x480); the text visible on the left and bottom right is provided by a text-inserter box that reads data from the paypoint and overlays it on the video:

 

And again, a 1.3MP IQ511 at the same position (I don't think the lens on this one is a proper megapixel lens either):

[caltbaum 0]

Thank you for that demonstration. I am reading through the tread you posted now. Very interesting. Awesome cameras. I will for sure buy some to replace what I have.

 

Now... In order to fully ultilize the megapixel cameras, what is the minimum a DVR would need?

 

Chris

[Soundy 1]

It doesn't need anything substantial, really - the cameras digitize the video internally and send it over the network. At the other end, you only need a DVR that can accept and store (and playback) that data - these are known as "hybrid" DVRs - or an NVR (Network Video Recorder), which can be a DVR-type machine, or just a storage unit that supports the cameras you've chosen.

 

In the case of a Vigil system, for example, the Vigil Server software can run as a straight DVR (using an analog capture card), or as a hybrid (with the IP camera licenses added), or as an NVR without any capture hardware.

 

Of course, a more powerful machine is preferred for quicker searching and viewing and such... and if you're building a hybrid, you still need the horsepower for the analog capture portion.

 

You also need a lot more storage for megapixel - all else being equal (framerates, compression type, etc.), a 1.3MP camera (1280x1024 resolution) is approximately four times the image size of 4CIF analog capture (704x480, the highest common resolution used, and near the max limit of analog video resolution), and as such needs four times the storage space. As an example, on one site, we have 23 analog cameras, most recording at 704x480 (three or four at 352x240), and five 1.3MP cameras. All cameras record at an average 4fps (some at 5, some at 3, most at 4). Even with motion-detect recording, it still takes approximately 9.5TB to get the 90 days' retention they want. We're just quoting now on upgrades they want to another site, which will have six MP cameras (probably 3MP) and 24 analog cameras, and we're quoting about 14TB to store it all.

 

The important thing to remember is that the DVR/NVR must have support for the cameras - you can choose cameras first and then narrow your choice of recorders down to ones that support them, but it's probably easier to select your recorder first and then look at the cameras it supports.

[caltbaum 0]

Well, I am thinking of going with the 3xLogic Pro Series Hybrid DVR H.264 Codec.

I am hoping I can add sufficent HD space to cover all my cameras. I also want to buy 2 IP Cameras to start. I am looking at Arecont 1.3 Megapixel H.264 IP Cameras. What do you think about combining these two systems?

 

Chris

[Soundy 1]

We've used the Areconts with the Vigil systems on several sites now, they work quite well once thing are configured. Just a word of warning though, setting up the Areconts in the first place is a bit of a hassle - they don't ship with a simple setup utility, but instead insist on installing their own mini-NVR program along with the setup utility - once you're done configuring the cameras, you have to uninstall the bundled utilities, or it will continue to start up with Windows. Once they're all up and running though, they do a good job.

 

You might look at 3xLogic's own cameras, which are rebranded Hikvisions - they include a setup utility that automatically configures the server software.

 

3xLogic also has their own network RAID arrays for added storage, although you can use any external drive that attaches via USB, Firewire, eSATA, or iSCSI.

[Sawbones 0]

I've built a few PC-based DVRs, using the Luxriot software. Here's my latest one... a rack-mount NVR (all the cameras are network/IP cameras or analog cameras on Axis camera servers). All video comes into the server over gigabit ethernet.

 

Parts:

 

 

 

 

case:

 

 

 

 

 

Built:

 

 

 

 

 

Server load:

 

 

 

 

 

That server easily carries a dozen+ network cameras, and writes to 6TB of storage (four 1.5TB Seagate drives). The processor load is what you see, and the network load doesn't even come close to saturating the gigabit connection (even when serving multiple remote clients).

[mateck8888 0]

RAID 5 WARNING: I'm not a Raid genius, but some folks warn CCTV installers to stay away from Raid 5.

 

See:

 

http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=162

http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/raid5-vs-raid-10-safety-performance.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_RAID_levels#RAID_5

 

Also, I just had to finally scrap a 48 Channel Hikvision server that had a 24 TB RAID-5 in it. The clients were taking up to 10 minuets to pull video off of the Raid-5. I think the problem was more Hikvision software, than my RAID, but I guess RAID processing does have some read/write efficiency problems. Obviously, Soundy is not having the problem, as he is using Raid-5.

 

I would be interested to know if any thinks there is anything to the zdnet article.

 

Matt

[Truchaos 0]

"Also, I just had to finally scrap a 48 Channel Hikvision server that had a 24 TB RAID-5 in it. The clients were taking up to 10 minuets to pull video off of the Raid-5. I think the problem was more Hikvision software,"

 

 

How did you ever figure out the instructions for the Hikvision software? I have a stand alone Hikvision system which I've been trying to access via a computer with Hikvision software and I can't get it work. Both my IT person and I can't get it to view video on the DVR even using a router between the two. The computer talks to the DVR but the software won't access the video. The DVR works fine and I can view the stored/live video on a monitor connected directly to the DVR (using the remote control) but not via the Hikvision software. I've called Hikvision USA tech support but their language skills are literally the worst I've ever encountered via telephone support. Their online writing skills are nearly as bad. I'm pretty good with broken english but when I can only figure out a single word out of each twenty, there isn't much communication happening. I like the Hikvision 8016HFI, I just would like to use it to it's full potential. Of course I called the internet security company I bought the system from and they literally told me I should have bought a different system and that they couldn't help me.

 

I'd like to add that someone commented that 4CIF at 30 frames per second would consume a tremendous amount of storage. My experience is that at maximum resolution, with 16 cameras and a somewhat busy environment 8 hours per day and some night activity (motion activated), I'm using about 1TB per month in storage. I installed 8 TB of storage and can record about 8 months of video with H.264 compression at 4CIF and 30 FPS. This is on the 8016HFI Hikvision system connected to analog 520TVL cameras.

[mateck8888 0]

1. Not sure why you can not access the DVR. I have never used their DVRs, only the cards installed in Windows XP. You could check your firewall. I am assuming you can ping the IP address of the DVR, correct? You certainly don't need a router between the two. You might try to just use a switch only, just to make sure that the Router is not messing things up. Ultimately, you will need the router if you plan on hooking up to the internet, or intranet.

 

Have you tried the ping command from the windows command prompt?

 

I purchased my system from http://dvrsystems.net/, and they are very helpful. I think it would be a long time before I used netvision products again, hoping that they improve, but my support with the folks at http://dvrsystems.net/ has been very good. Unfortunately, that won't help you at this point, but it might help make decisions easier in the future for you if you continue to use Hikvision.

[edselrt 0]

The computer talks to the DVR but the software won't access the video.

What kind of client software are you using? If you are using IVMS4000, once you are connected, just click the dvr from the site tree and then you will see the list of cameras that you can connect to. Just drag the cameras one by one to your live view screen and you should be able to see the live view