Residential Complex CCTV system, need suggestions...

[nickCR 0]

hardwired thanks for all your replies. I think really you've answered all my questions and now i'm just working with the providers to get the best solution possible for the price.

 

Last night we meet and I presented both offers and explained that I would like the system to be expandable. It seems though that the residents only want the exterior protected and are not very interested in the interior of the complex. One neighbor even wanted us to eliminate the cameras in the club houses (i'm not in favor of this of course).

 

Basically here is the site design:

 

Two cameras in the front entrance (one entry, one exit) - 100 mts SW from the main AP

 

One camera on the S side of the complex - 75 mts S from the main AP

 

One camera on the SE side of the complex - 200 mts SE from the main AP

 

One dome PTZ camera on the NE side of the complex - 200 mts NE from the main AP

 

One camera on the N side of the complex - 400 mts N from the main AP

 

One camera in the club house 2 - 100 mts NW from the main AP

 

One camera in the club house 1 - main AP is located here

 

I asked provider one to look for some different software that could handle a larger array of cameras.

 

Do you guys know if ZoneMinder or Exacq or some other type of software could do this:

 

Once motion detection is detected on a camera that it will sound an alarm or turn on a light or something like that? Maybe we could just make a noise come from a viewer pc in the guard house?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Regards, Nick

[nickCR 0]

Will Engenius 2.4 ghz Super G be ok or do we need to look at 5 ghz?

 

The best 'provider one' can get is Engenius 5 ghz "A" band which i'm not sure on the through put. Is it equivalent to the 300 mbps that we could get on "N" or would be be better off going with the Super G solution?

[rory 0]

Provider B - Cons

 

Limited to 16 ports

Just to clarify, you can do 32 channels with Geovision in a single DVR.

Some other DVRs even do 64 with hardware compression cards.

Additionally you could use the same wireless you want to use for IP cameras, and using less expensive NON IP cameras, you could use IP video encoders/decoders where needed, or use a mixture of that and wired. Also if one had available existing twisted pair (UTP) running around the complex, it may be able to be utilized for the cameras as well. For example cameras from brands such as KT&C and CNB are very inexpensive but also work great (depending on the model and placement). Additionally you could get much better low light capabilities if that is required. Just offering another solution to the mix. I would also check around and see what other such complexes are using, as that might the best solution for the area you live in.

[thewireguys 3]

I strongly recommend you take a look at megapixel cameras for your outdoor camera. We are currently working with a customer that has a D1 resolution IP system they have found out that the system is useless because there just isn't enough resolution to identify the people in the videos. So we removing the cameras and replacing them with megapixel, just something to keep in mind.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Guest

[hardwired 0]

Will Engenius 2.4 ghz Super G be ok or do we need to look at 5 ghz?

 

The best 'provider one' can get is Engenius 5 ghz "A" band which i'm not sure on the through put. Is it equivalent to the 300 mbps that we could get on "N" or would be be better off going with the Super G solution?

 

About the best real world throughput on any standard A/B/G setup is going to be about 27-54Mbps, and in turbo/super modes, only half the normal channels will usually be available, due to using 40Mhz channel widths. Keep in mind, 300Mbps on "N" is not what you will get from end to end, that's the modulation rate. Real world throughput in "N" is likely to be 65-85Mbps or so.

 

5Ghz bands are almost always less polluted, as well as having more channels to choose from.

 

You might do yourself a favor and just order up a pair of NanoStationM5's to test, the newest firmware also has a built in spectrum analyzer to see how much usage on different channels is in your area, and adjust around it.

 

You might end up needing two AP's on different channels for the standard rate stuff, where you may only need one AP for the "N" rate products.

 

As far as triggering events, if the cameras have digital I/O ports(most do), you can use event linking in Exacq to tie different events (motion detection, etc) to outputs on different devices.

[nickCR 0]

thanks guys for your replies.

 

rory: Yes I know they make cards that handle more channels but the option they were offering only had a card for 16 channels.

 

thewireguys: We will look into them.

 

hardwired: Thanks for clarifying that for me. I figured that was the case but I just wanted to double check. So really if the Super G is 2.4 ghz with maybe 35-70 Mbps then I think we're looking pretty good. The only downside is the 2.4 ghz but as explained if the using the same product as a AP then we should have a much larger range of channels to choose from which sounds pretty good to me

 

I'll see if he can get Wireless N but unfortunately I don't think it will be very accessible here in Costa Rica.

 

That's great news about Exacq software. I guess there is an entire array of things you could do with this feature then. For example you could probably program it that if it detects motion to zoom in on it. Run a tour. Etc..

 

Thanks guys for all your help, it's really helped me get to a point where I can make an educated decisions about the setup.

[buellwinkle 0]

I have the closest setup to what you are trying to do, and fully understand. I designed our community's (over 300 homes) access control and cameras and here's my take.

 

First, throw away any vendor that providing you with Chinese made junk like Foscam or worse, unbranded crap using the Sony name but not really Sony, You want cameras that will not break after a few months, and make you look bad. You want a recognized brand name where you know you will get good service and products that will last 10 years, not 10 weeks.

 

Next, evaluate what you are trying to accomplish. For example, we have entrance gates where our goal is to capture forensic evidence for police to use in case of vandlism or crashing into our gates. We also have a remote guard that needs to be able to identify a car, read a license plate and look into a car of varying shapes and heights. You can acomplish this with a bunch of low resolution cameras, or you can do this with fewer high resolution cameras. Your choice but consider that the less cameras you have that can do the job, the less labor to install, the less wiring, the less videos you have to review and sync up during an event.

 

We chose Mobotix cameras, very expensive compared to junk that you are looking at, but is able to get very good day and night vision and razor sharp image quality. But the big value proposition is the DVR functionality is built into the camera. You can use a 32GB SD card on the camera and that should hold several weeks of events. This means you don't have to stress about having a wireless network to connect all the cameras to a single DVR/NVR, you are never limited to how many cameras you have or add. Also, having 3 MP at each camera gives you the detail you need to identify cars branding, license plates, peoples faces with one camera instead of 2-3.

 

What I then do is have these in groups of 2-3 cameras at each location. These cameras are networked together via wire. You don't want WiFi, because with WiFi, you have to still connect the cameras to power, you still need an electrician, so why bother, just have the electrician run Cat5 to each camera and power it that way. WiFi cameas also have annoying power supplies at each camera, how do you hide that or prevent someone from unplugging it?

 

To span larger areas, for example, you have multiple groups of cameras, in our case we have 6 gates. Each group can talk to a central location using a point to multipoint wireless bridge. For example, you can get Proxim 8100 series or Motorola Canopy base station and then put a client bridge at each group of cameras. This will allow you to view the cameras from a central point, like a clubhouse or office. Because each camera is self contained, there's no single point of failure like there is with the solution above. You can view all the cameras at once using the free software from Mobotix. This is not cheap, so initially, put a WiFi router at each gate, when you want to view video, go near the location and view it from a laptop connected to the WiFi router. It's cheap and easy.

 

I know this seems expensive compared to the junk you have been quoted. But my attitude is to do it right and do it once. So instead of installing a dozen junk cameras, install a few good cameras and add to it as money becomes available. There's no need to rush and end up with something useless.

 

I see surveillence companies bidding junk all the time, it's pathetic but they have the attitude that they will win a bid if they can bid more camera for less money and most communities like yours or mine will never know that they got junk because the salesman will convince them that it's as good as it gets and then when it breaks after the warranty period is over, it's fiesta time, more revenue for the them as they charge you double to just replace one camera at a time.

 

What I do to find vendors to install a system, is first research which brands are best for you (ie. Axis, IQinVision, Mobotix, Stardot, Panasonic, Sony), then call the manufacturer from their website and get a referal of partners in your area.

 

Don't make the mistake of comparing cameras solely on price, that's what the people bidding are counting on, the crappier the equipment, the more likely they are to close the deal and make the most profit.

[nickCR 0]

buellwinkle: Thanks for your very detailed reply. This has been a huge learning experience for me. I've been looking and drilling my head into the wall trying to figure out what's best and with all the options there isn't one "BEST" solution but there are definitely things to stay away from. I most certainly don't want to look bad by recommending a cheap system that won't work.

 

I agree that Foscam is crap and i'm not happy with the provider anymore. He doesn't seem to be doing a very good job at working with me. I told him we wanted to find another software package that wasn't zoneminder that could support more cameras. His reply was well I can get it but then I don't know what cameras we can use. This was the most unprofessional statement that he could make. The ONLY part of the entire quote that he had which was good was the Engenius wireless AP's, but then he left out materials like wiring and tubing, etc.

 

I want to clarify something here. We are not interested in identification. We have a full time security team that is fully armed and with an alarm or something to notify them of movement they can respond immediately to any threats.

 

With that said, I found a dealer here that distributes Exacq software. They came the same day I called them. Their first quote was $30K with a 5.8 ghz system which many here pointed out was a little overkill (the wireless system that is).

 

I continued to work with the provider. We calculated the exact distances and found that we can do a wired setup to the main entrance where we were going to have 2 cameras. So perfect we can upgrade to MP cameras later with no problem at all which is a big benefit since there is really the only location were "identification" would ever really be necessary.

 

Aside from that we worked on a system that was closer to what we can ask the neighbors for in a payment. His last quote was for a little over $15K, with a 2.4 ghz system vs 5.8 ghz.

 

The cameras he proposes are the same Vivotek cameras (IP7330 & SD-7151). Like I mentioned before, I have used this brand and I really like them but maybe you guys will have another take on that. To my knowledge Vivotek is a decent brand name when it comes to cameras (not as good as some but no where near as horrible as others).

 

Also take into consideration that we live in Costa Rica. Just the import tax here is 30%, then 13% sales tax and shipping on top of it usually brings the cost to around 50% more form that in the states. For example the IP7330 is $437 and the SD-7151 is $1,978.

 

The only thing i'm up in the air about is the wireless system he proposes and until he provides the model number I won't really know if it's good or not. He wants to use a 2.4 ghz system. I know this frequency is congested but I think people were ok with the Engenius products and the brand he proposes does have a CPE that operates on a band that is completely out of the residential frequencies.

 

He has done a lot of installs in the country including a lot of government institutions which require quality security. He also provides a 18 month waranty on his system. So at least I can't look that bad for 18 months

 

Anyway when I get the wireless model i'll post up the specs.

 

Also please feel free to let me know what you guys think of the Vivotek equipment.

 

Thanks in advance for you help!

[Soundy 1]

This has been a huge learning experience for me. I've been looking and drilling my head into the wall trying to figure out what's best and with all the options there isn't one "BEST" solution but there are definitely things to stay away from. I most certainly don't want to look bad by recommending a cheap system that won't work.

Bet you thought you were just gonna pop in here and get a quick and easy "Provider A or Provider B" answer and be merrily on your way, didn't you?

 

Now aren't you sorry you asked??

 

Glad you've found this all useful... and even more glad you're actually taking the time to learn about what you're dealing with. I think I speak for most here when I say, we like well-informed customers (not to be confused with "smart" customers - see the thread elsewhere - who arm themselves with just enough disjointed information to be dangerous and then dive into the deep end).

 

I'm sure the Exacq dealer is glad you found him now, so you're coming to him with reasonable expectations!

[nickCR 0]

Now aren't you sorry you asked??

 

LOL ... it's a love hate relationship .... honestly though no i'm not sorry because at least this way I won't look like an idiot by having us install a system that sux.

 

BTW it's nice to see you visiting the thread again

 

Glad you've found this all useful... and even more glad you're actually taking the time to learn about what you're dealing with. I think I speak for most here when I say, we like well-informed customers (not to be confused with "smart" customers - see the thread elsewhere - who arm themselves with just enough disjointed information to be dangerous and then dive into the deep end).

 

I've learned a ton from you guys and from other post on this forum. I've always liked IP based stuff, I do all my own networking at home and even have a Linksys IP cam that i've played around with. So I must admit this was a topic of interest to me so that's probably why I enjoy learning about it even though it is a little over whelming. I might not understand that specifics yet but I get the big picture.

 

I'm sure the Exacq dealer is glad you found him now, so you're coming to him with reasonable expectations!

 

Well business is business right I'm sure the $15K-$16K he will charge for this will result in a decent profit.

 

I found a couple of videos on the internet of the IP7330 and the video isn't perfect but it's not half bad. We will without a doubt be able to see whats happening in the exterior of the complex. Our biggest concern are these two empty lots which are quite dark at night. Seems like this little guy is up to the task.

 

On a separate note when everyone started talking about channels and all that I did check with him to see what kind of analog system he suggested.

 

Includes the same number of cameras but they are PARANTEK - ACP-RV052 and the dome is D-Max DOH-240Se with a Kguard KG522 system. I just don't see the benefit in buying an analog system much less one that only has 9 channels.

[Soundy 1]

I've learned a ton from you guys and from other post on this forum.

I've picked up a few things from this thread as well... which lead me to a thread of my own that I'm off to start now, for a job that's just dropped in my lap...

[nickCR 0]

The wireless that he proposes to use is:

 

Argtek CPE2615

 

http://www.argtek.com/

 

I don't feel very comfortable with this but I don't know what you guys think...

 

Also anyone ever heard of these?

 

http://www.ethernetextender.com/ethernet-extension-products/865.php

[Ronald 0]

is "residencial" in spanish?

[nickCR 0]

Might have made that mistake

 

Fixed the main title just for ya!

[Ronald 0]

Might have made that mistake

 

Fixed the main title just for ya!

 

Pas de problème. Oops sorry, I meant to say "nolo problemo".

 

Ron

[buellwinkle 0]

The Vivotek will give you the lowest price of a named brand camera, but they are sort of weak in the image quality department. Look at sample images on the sticky thread about camera images, seems too soft for me. It's tough in that price range to find a better camera. The built in IR illuminators probably don't have enough range to matter outdoors. Also it's a fixed focal length lens that's not changable, that's a bad idea, you won't be able to fine tune the area you want to cover.

 

I would suggest an Axis M1113, you will see better at night without the need for the illuminators and probably your current outdoor lighting may be adequate. Their service and support is outstanding, especially when compared to Vivotek (ask how long it takes to get a camera repaired, maybe months). It's 800x600 resolution, a lot nicer than 640x480. It comes with a varifocal lens (think of it like a manual zoom) and the lens is auto-iris (think of it like apeture on a regular camera, the Vivotek has a fixed size opening and the sun can damage the sensor over time) also it's H.264, a huge advantage over the Vivotek for networking the cameras, H.264 will give you like 5-10x compresion advantage over the Vivotek and less compression artifacts. You'll need to put in an outdoor enclosure, but you can get a Pelco enclosure for $60-80 range. The biggest advantage of a seperate outdoor enclosure is the camera is protected a lot better from vandelism. Someone spray paints over the front, wacks it with a baseball bat, the camera will have a much better chance of surviving.

 

If it were me, I would try out both or more cameras, look at them during different times during the day and at night and see what gives you what you need.

 

As for wireless, of course hardwire as much as you can, but if you need wireless, the least expensive is Ubiquiti Nanostations. Made for cameras, comes with pole mount and power injector. Also has PoE out to power the camera. They cost about $89 each in the US. They also come in 2.4 and 5.8 Ghz.

 

As for a computer to manage this all, this will be tough, lots of cameras. Did they include a price on a proper PoE network switch? Exacq softwware can be expensive per camera. You may be better off buying better cameras, using less expensive software like BlueIrisSoftware.com, Castlekeeper.40th.com, h264soft.com, all of which will be way, way less expensive. Most if not all of the software packages, even Milstone

[thewireguys 3]

 

As for wireless, of course hardwire as much as you can, but if you need wireless, the least expensive is Ubiquiti Nanostations. Made for cameras, comes with pole mount and power injector. Also has PoE out to power the camera. They cost about $89 each in the US. They also come in 2.4 and 5.8 Ghz.

 

As for a computer to manage this all, this will be tough, lots of cameras. Did they include a price on a proper PoE network switch? Exacq softwware can be expensive per camera. You may be better off buying better cameras, using less expensive software like BlueIrisSoftware.com, Castlekeeper.40th.com, h264soft.com, all of which will be way, way less expensive. Most if not all of the software packages, even Milstone

 

The Nanostation is not IEEE 802.3af you will not beak to pier the cameras with POE.

 

I would stay away from Vivotek.... Axis does now have a cheaper line of cameras out and Acti has some nice stuff.

[buellwinkle 0]

Sorry, it's the Ubiquiti Nanostation M that has PoE (802.3af,) output to power the camera. They have different models and the Nanostation 2 or 5 do not have PoE output for the camera. Here's an image from their website

 

[thewireguys 3]

Sorry, it's the Ubiquiti Nanostation M that has PoE (802.3af,) output to power the camera. They have different models and the Nanostation 2 or 5 do not have PoE output for the camera. Here's an image from their website

 

 

I spoke with there tech support and they told me there products are not 802.3af. They have a adapter that does but it is miss leading, it takes the 802.3af and converts it to Ubiquiti's standard. I have not tested this for myself, but I did call and speak with there support. I do hope that he was incorrect

[hardwired 0]

Sorry, it's the Ubiquiti Nanostation M that has PoE (802.3af,) output to power the camera. They have different models and the Nanostation 2 or 5 do not have PoE output for the camera. Here's an image from their website

 

 

I spoke with there tech support and they told me there products are not 802.3af. They have a adapter that does but it is miss leading, it takes the 802.3af and converts it to Ubiquiti's standard. I have not tested this for myself, but I did call and speak with there support. I do hope that he was incorrect

 

He was not incorrect, although I have found a way to power some cameras on the same line as the Nanostation radios. They will not power up from the PoE directly (I tested this with cams from Panasonic, Acti, and Mobotix), but by using a passive power injector block, you can peel the power off of the CAT5 cable, and then go to the camera's standard power input port. Ubiquiti makes power injectors in 15, 18, and 24 volt, I used the 24 volt model for testing this, to allow as much cable losses as possible.

 

I do agree, that picture is a little misleading, I had a few conversations with Ubiquiti about that.

 

The Nanostation "M" models are working extremely well for me, and the 2.4 Ghz model will cut through a surprising amount of trees/foliage, compared to other wireless gear.

[Ronald 0]

You are replying to the wrong person.

 

Ronald

[hardwired 0]

The wireless that he proposes to use is:

 

Argtek CPE2615

 

http://www.argtek.com/

 

I don't feel very comfortable with this but I don't know what you guys think...

 

Also anyone ever heard of these?

 

http://www.ethernetextender.com/ethernet-extension-products/865.php

 

That wireless stuff looks a little iffy..... I use a lot of Ubiquiti stuff, and have been very happy with it.

 

As far as the Ethernet extenders, I've used ones from http://netsys-direct.com/ that have worked very well, IPERF bandwidth tests on their 100Mbps model came close to wire-speed at 1200 feet of CAT3 phone cable, and I have their 8 port DSLAM running cameras at 1500-2000 feet each in an apartment complex over their existing phone cabling.

[Ronald 0]

You must be replying to the wrong person.

[hardwired 0]

You must be replying to the wrong person.

 

I'm responding to questions from the original poster of this thread, I'm not sure what you mean?

[Ronald 0]

You must be replying to the wrong person.

 

I'm responding to questions from the original poster of this thread, I'm not sure what you mean?

 

Sorry, I didn't realize that I would be receiving email notifications for this topic's messages even though they are not directed to me personally.

 

Ronald