Any experience with Gen IV Commercial-Class DVRs (G4-XLAHD)?

[SpyGuy10 0]

I'm looking for a sub-$1,000 commercial-class 16-channel DVR. Last year, I was talking with Mike from Shoreview Security, and he recommended the Gen IV systems (Intellicam), although the models have changed since I spoke with him.

 

Unfortunately, Mike is no longer available. But the specs for the G4-XLA16HD look impressive and the price is right: $896 for a "bare" unit (no drives -- I will install my own SATA hard drives and DVD-RW).

 

Any feedback? Searching the forum archives, I know there was some contention and criticism between some of the dealers posting here and Intellicam. But that was over 4 years ago. And Mike seemed like a knowledgeable and reputable guy, so I don't think he would recommend the Gen IV units unless he really believed in their quality and performance.

[dopalgangr 1]

SpyGuy

 

I dont have the HD model but have owned the 4ch and the 16 channel xla. I was very happy with both units. The only issue I ever saw was the occasional misspelling of a word for the options or a compatibility issue with IE8 (fixed with using the compatibility feature of IE8). I found both of the units to be very reliable. I have since moved to IP cameras with a pc dvr. I do miss how easy the Intellicam stuff was to setup.

 

I dont know what happened with Mike. I sent him a email and have not gotten a reply. It would be a shame if he was out of the business, he is a real standup guy and backs everything he sells (unlike a lot of other people and companies I have dealt with in this field).

 

I'm getting ready to buy two more of them for small projects that I need a simple, quality dvr for. It appears Intellicam no longer sells to the public but Google sbcsgroup, he has good prices IMHO.

 

Good luck,

Glen

 

BTW another great company IMO that I have recently found and like is Nuuo. They dont look like they have standalones but do carry the pc cards and the software is really good with easy setups.

[bpzle 0]

dopalgangr: Fan of the Nuuo, eh? What got you interested in them all of a sudden?

 

 

I've moved a lot of cheap 4 channel units in my day... Just can't beat them for the price.

 

16 channel? Meh.... I'm kind of hesitant to invest (or convince clients to invest) in that kind of dough for something that isn't expandable and isn't serviceable.

 

If it's more than 8 channels, PC based all the way... PC/ PC parts are cheap and readily available. If things change down the road, guess what! You can slap more components on and upgrade! If something breaks down the road, guess what! You can slap replacement parts in it and not loose your entire investment if it's out of warranty!

 

Nuuo makes decent stuff, also look at Avermedia. Do some creative shopping or utilize an existing PC and you can come pretty close to your budget.

 

BTW- I'm a guy and I stand up too!

[SpyGuy10 0]

16 channel? Meh.... I'm kind of hesitant to invest (or convince clients to invest) in that kind of dough for something that isn't expandable and isn't serviceable.

That's a good argument. But it looks to me that it's still hard to beat the price point of a dedicated DVR. But I'm willing to be convinced otherwise...

 

If it's more than 8 channels, PC based all the way... PC/ PC parts are cheap and readily available. If things change down the road, guess what! You can slap more components on and upgrade! If something breaks down the road, guess what! You can slap replacement parts in it and not loose your entire investment if it's out of warranty!

But at $900 just to license 6 channels of Exacq VMS (and that's not including the cost of the hardware), that 16-ch DVR for $896 is starting to look pretty good.

[dopalgangr 1]

dopalgangr: Fan of the Nuuo, eh? What got you interested in them all of a sudden?

 

 

I've moved a lot of cheap 4 channel units in my day... Just can't beat them for the price.

 

16 channel? Meh.... I'm kind of hesitant to invest (or convince clients to invest) in that kind of dough for something that isn't expandable and isn't serviceable.

 

If it's more than 8 channels, PC based all the way... PC/ PC parts are cheap and readily available. If things change down the road, guess what! You can slap more components on and upgrade! If something breaks down the road, guess what! You can slap replacement parts in it and not loose your entire investment if it's out of warranty!

 

Nuuo makes decent stuff, also look at Avermedia. Do some creative shopping or utilize an existing PC and you can come pretty close to your budget.

 

BTW- I'm a guy and I stand up too!

 

BPZLE, has been a great help to me also on this forum and off. As a matter of fact everyone on here have been great and are professionals Thanks for your help!!

[rory 0]

But at $900 just to license 6 channels of Exacq VMS (and that's not including the cost of the hardware), that 16-ch DVR for $896 is starting to look pretty good.

Not NVRs ... Hes talking about PC based DVRs like Geovision, Avermedia, Nuuo, etc.

[rory 0]

these guys sell the same brand DVRs intellicam sells .. both are OEMs:

http://www.xtsvideo.com

 

I wasnt overly impressed though, only improvement I found over other DVRs I have tested, and its been ALOT of them, is that it has HDMI output which is really amazing quality for live video.

[SpyGuy10 0]

Ok, so what's the best DVR, NVR, or PC-based solution for $1,000?

[rory 0]

Thats a really loaded question, unfortunately there is no unbiased answer for it.

[SpyGuy10 0]

Thats a really loaded question, unfortunately there is no unbiased answer for it.

My mistake. Drop the word "best".

 

Better yet, let me re-phrase...

If a client came to you with $1,000 for a DVR or PC-based monitoring system, which system would you recommend?

[dopalgangr 1]

Does that include cameras, cables, installation, etc or just the DVR/PC. Do they have there own pc to install the card or software in or would they need that too? What type of resolution/frame rate/number of channels are required? Lots of questions to answer before someone can give an accurate price...

[SpyGuy10 0]

Does that include cameras, cables, installation, etc or just the DVR/PC. Do they have there own pc to install the card or software in or would they need that too? What type of resolution/frame rate/number of channels are required? Lots of questions to answer before someone can give an accurate price...

Sorry, I thought it was clear I was just talking about the DVR/PC-based monitoring/recording part of the system. All cameras, cables, labor, etc. are already expensed and not part of the $1,000 budget.

 

As for the resolution/frame rate/number of channels, it should be comparable to what we'd get from the G4-XLA16HD from Gen IV (since that's the unit we're considering purchasing, and thus the topic of this thread). The specs on the G4-XLA16HD are:

 

16-ch analog video input

CIF @ 30 fps (on all 16 channels)

Option to record 4CIF @ 30fps (on 2 of the 16 channels; the 14 other channels would be CIF @ 30 fps)

Option to record 4CIF @ 6 6fps (on all 16 channels)

H.264 hardware compression

Pentaplex operation

Monitoring/control/configuration over the Internet

 

To be fair, the $1,000 really should include the cost of a PC (for a PC-based system). After all, even if we have a PC, it's still part of the cost of the system (and a standalone DVR doesn't need a server PC). But I'll also consider recommendations for a PC-based system that doesn't include the cost of the PC in $1,000 budget.

 

Also, is there a consensus on the added value of 4CIF versus CIF? I saw Gen IV's live demo of 4 cams at CIF resolution and the images were surprisingly clear. Would we really need more than 2 channels of 4CIF @ 30 fps? If so, then I would consider an 8-channel solution, provided that the resolution on all 8 channels are 4CIF or D1 @ 30 fps.

[dopalgangr 1]

I see Well I haven't seen the HD output on the new units but Rory has. He can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the high res picture is only when your viewing them live so it wouldn't record at that rate and have that great picture when you played it back. The CIF does look good when your looking at it in the small framed out boxes, but when you make it full screen you will really see the difference. I personally always try to get the highest recorded resolution and as long as its at least 8fps I think thats enough. Intellicam used to carry a Hikvision card that I bought and used. I thought it was pretty good for the price and very stable on my system. It was this one http://www.hikvision-usa.com/DS-4004HCI.html but they dont seem to have updated anything lately and would probably use the Nuuo one here instead http://www.nuuo.com/product.php?id=16&sub=3 . As for the system to put it in you could spec out a Dell or I like to custom build those myself using the recommeded mobo's, processors, and ram.

 

Good luck

[rory 0]

Yeah the CIF recording was very blocky, thats what basically pushed me away from it. The live quality was great.

[SpyGuy10 0]

Well I haven't seen the HD output on the new units but Rory has. He can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the high res picture is only when your viewing them live so it wouldn't record at that rate and have that great picture when you played it back.

According to the specs for the G4-XLAHD, it will record two channels at 4CIF/30fps (with the remaining 8-channels at CIF/30fps), or all 16-channels at 4CIF/6fps. I haven't seen the playback quality so I can't judge how the H.264 compression affects the recorded video. But I believe the system streams H.264 compressed video over the Internet, so the quality of the live-feed demo should be the same as what the system would record.

 

The CIF does look good when your looking at it in the small framed out boxes, but when you make it full screen you will really see the difference.

Actually, the CIF resolution doesn't look bad expanded either. But then, I don't have a 4CIF feed to compare it to. Of course I know that at double the resolution, the 4CIF will look much better. But I was actually surprised at the clarity of the CIF video on their live-feed.

 

I'll post some screen shots from their demo live-feed.

 

I ... would probably use the Nuuo one here instead http://www.nuuo.com/product.php?id=16&sub=3. As for the system to put it in you could spec out a Dell or I like to custom build those myself using the recommeded mobo's, processors, and ram.

I am reviewing the Nuuo unit and I like what I see so far in terms of specs. But it is a considerably more costly solution, given that it's $1,000 for an 8-channel card, not including the cost of the PC. It will be a hard sell to management to convince them to pony up more money for less channels.

 

If I go with the Nuuo DVR card, will I need anything else besides the PC to build the DVR part of the system? Is server and client software already included? Can someone tell me what it costs to add IP camera licensing to it for a hybrid system (for future upgrade/expansion)?

[SpyGuy10 0]

Yeah the CIF recording was very blocky, thats what basically pushed me away from it. The live quality was great.

Which model was that?

[rory 0]

Which model was that?

 

I did not use the Intellicam, but it is the same DVR, from here:

http://xtsvideo.com/viewDetailProduct.aspx?productId=XTS-DVR720-S&categoryId=7

 

The slimline is the budget one, all cif but one channel.

The other one I used had D1 on all channels, but if set to CIF it was just as bad as the budget one.

I never use CIF, unless I have a really low priority camera and the clients have small HDD space .. which is almost never as HDDs cost so little these days. CIF is just too small in most cases to be able to get any kind of useful evidence from, but sometimes in a small area with equally low quality cameras it makes little difference.

 

I think this was the 16 channel one I used, same brand from Asia: (older model though)

http://xtsvideo.com/viewDetailProduct.aspx?productId=XTS-DVR5616-S&categoryId=7

 

BTW I didnt test the remote video, just was not interested in it enough .. but I imagine you might be seeing a Dual Stream DVR, which means the network video is seperate from the recorded video, as most DVRs should be, but many cheap budget ones are not.

 

if you get a chance, there is another standalone I want to get my hands on, someone here said they will buy it to test, it would be the Hikvision. They make PC Cards which are hardware compression and which server software works in Linux and Windows. their standalones also look good, which is why I want to test one out.

http://www.hikvision-usa.com/

 

Ive used alot of various stand alone DVRs over the years, including big brands like GE, Everfocus, AvTech, Avermedia, Indigo, OEMed Eclipse CCTV Models, PowerTellecom OEM from Asia, various others .. but just havent found anything I can say I was impressed with yet .. the HDMI on the intellicam type DVR was moderately impressive but then how many clients have or will buy HDMI monitors for their DVR .. I dont know of any myself. The Indigo one currently using for example .. its moderately inexpensive and just works. remote video is high quality, but slow .. single stream .. same as recorded video. I mean when you sit down and think about it, I end up just going back to GeoVision .. even with its flaws and hassles of buying PC parts .. it works great and has all the features. Im looking at testing the Hikvison cards though, so can use it in Linux as eventually XP will be priced out of the market or hard to find, and I literally DETEST Windows 7!

[SpyGuy10 0]

Here are some images I captured from the Gen IV (Intellicam) live-feed demo of their G4-XLAHD:

 

 

These are all from real-time streaming video feeds at CIF resolution, 30 fps. Click each image to see at the full resolution as captured on my PC.

 

Unfortunately, no one was walking through their lobby at the time I captured these, but I have seen people in the feed in the past and you can recognize facial features, etc.

 

I'm not suggesting that CIF is as good as 4CIF or D1; obviously it cannot be at only half the resolution. But as I said earlier, I was surpised at the clarity of these CIF images, even expanded to a single full-frame. And I believe these are the same quality as recorded because they would have to compress with H.264 to stream these feeds over the Internet.

 

Rory, is this what you consider "blocky"? Or did you see something else on your demo?

[SpyGuy10 0]

I did not use the Intellicam, but it is the same DVR, from here:

http://xtsvideo.com/viewDetailProduct.aspx?productId=XTS-DVR720-S&categoryId=7

 

I think this was the 16 channel one I used, same brand from Asia: (older model though)

http://xtsvideo.com/viewDetailProduct.aspx?productId=XTS-DVR5616-S&categoryId=7

 

.. the HDMI on the intellicam type DVR was moderately impressive but then how many clients have or will buy HDMI monitors for their DVR

So the Intellicam has HDMI output and the XTS Video unit does not? Then they are not exactly the same unit, right? If so, that begs the question: What other differences are there between the units? Perhaps the XTS Video DVR uses a lesser quality encoder or compression chipset.

 

I really don't know, but it seems to me that even if the two systems are made by the same Korean manufacturer and uses the same chassis, faceplate, and controls, that doesn't mean they are identical units internally. If the Intellicam unit has HDMI output and the XTS Video does not, that would seem to bear out my argument. It's possible that the manufacturer makes one system to Intellicam's specs, and a similar-looking -- but different system -- to XTS Video's specs.

 

I'm not trying to promote Intellicam. I have no affilation with the company other than being an interested possible customer. I'm just trying to get educated so I can make an informed buying decision. And to do that, we need to compare apples-to-apples and clear up any confusion or misconceptions.

[dopalgangr 1]

Which model was that?

 

Ive used alot of various stand alone DVRs over the years, including big brands like GE, Everfocus, AvTech, Avermedia, Indigo, OEMed Eclipse CCTV Models, PowerTellecom OEM from Asia, various others .. but just havent found anything I can say I was impressed with yet .. the HDMI on the intellicam type DVR was moderately impressive but then how many clients have or will buy HDMI monitors for their DVR .. I dont know of any myself. The Indigo one currently using for example .. its moderately inexpensive and just works. remote video is high quality, but slow .. single stream .. same as recorded video. I mean when you sit down and think about it, I end up just going back to GeoVision .. even with its flaws and hassles of buying PC parts .. it works great and has all the features. Im looking at testing the Hikvison cards though, so can use it in Linux as eventually XP will be priced out of the market or hard to find, and I literally DETEST Windows 7!

 

I have had great luck with the Hikvision cards and linux. I used the software (and they even sell the cards and their version of the card thats cheaper and comparable) this company provides http://www.linovision.com/ There NVR software even works with the card to make it a hybrid.

 

So Spyguy, I dont know if Intellicam still does this (or their resellers) but they used to do a 30-day no questions asked return policy. Why not buy one and try it out. Like I had said before I was really happy with a three of the units that I had and found them really easy to setup and very stable.

[SpyGuy10 0]

I end up just going back to GeoVision .. even with its flaws and hassles of buying PC parts .. it works great and has all the features.

Care to elaborate on the GeoVision flaws? Have you tested or compared Nuuo to GeoVision?

[SpyGuy10 0]

So Spyguy, I dont know if Intellicam still does this (or their resellers) but they used to do a 30-day no questions asked return policy. Why not buy one and try it out. Like I had said before I was really happy with a three of the units that I had and found them really easy to setup and very stable.

That's certainly an option (I think they still honor that return policy). But unless doing side-by-side comparisons with other units, it's difficult to know if you're getting the best system for your money. And it's always easier to buy right the first time than deal with the hassle of returns and re-purchasing, especially when there are others involved in the purchase approval process.

 

I do appreciate your feedback on the systems you had. It makes me more comfortable with purchasing an Intellicam unit if that's what we decide. But I am still curious about the PC-based DVR cards.

 

Unfortunately, when I called Nuuo's tech support, the guy gave me incorrect information that conflicted with the specs published by Nuuo on their own website. And like many others in the CCTV business, he kept confusing "D1" and "4CIF" as if they are the same. I realize the difference is minor (720x480 vs. 704x480), but I expect a manufacturer to be accurate about what their systems' actual specifications are. (To be fair, Gen IV also makes this mistake by claiming on the G4-XLAHD "Product Features" that is allows "Up to Two Channel Full D1 recording", but then in the "Technical specifications", they state the resolution on those two channels are 4CIF.)

[rory 0]

So the Intellicam has HDMI output and the XTS Video unit does not? Then they are not exactly the same unit, right? If so, that begs the question: What other differences are there between the units? Perhaps the XTS Video DVR uses a lesser quality encoder or compression chipset.

 

The slim line in the first link i posted is the exact same unit as the Intellicam slim line. SAme software everything down to the T.

 

The 16 channel model i used is the older model of the same DVR intellicam has, basically all the same except without HDMI, Xts also has the HDMI versions on their site but they didnt send them. It could have been a defective model, but in D1 it was good quality. There were some other issues I had with it .. slow painting of GUI for example.

 

I really don't know, but it seems to me that even if the two systems are made by the same Korean manufacturer and uses the same chassis, faceplate, and controls, that doesn't mean they are identical units internally. If the Intellicam unit has HDMI output and the XTS Video does not, that would seem to bear out my argument. It's possible that the manufacturer makes one system to Intellicam's specs, and a similar-looking -- but different system -- to XTS Video's specs.

see above, the unit I had was just an older one without HDMI, everything else seems the same.

Could Intellicam have OEMed a better chipset, possibly, but unlikely, just looks like the newer model. Like I said, I never tried the remote software, but they claim dual stream, meaning what you see remotely is totally separate from the server's resolution and quality settings, hence you could record in CIF while live video is in D1 and the remote video can be in any quality setting you want.

[rory 0]

I end up just going back to GeoVision .. even with its flaws and hassles of buying PC parts .. it works great and has all the features.

Care to elaborate on the GeoVision flaws? Have you tested or compared Nuuo to GeoVision?

 

-8.3+ being very slow, or basically requiring fast hardware.

8.12 was their last good one as far as Im concerned, yes it had bugs too, but none that are noticeable for most setups, I never encountered any. It is fast, then after that it went down hill.

 

-Requiring .Net, installed with their IP cam setup even if not using it - yes I consider that a flaw!

 

-Upgrading issues with older cards - seems everytime they have a major release such as 8.0, and now 8.3 ... there becomes issues for older cards to work with them. Additionally you cant use new cards that come with 8.3, with say 8.12.

 

-No Linux Software ... okay I was never a linux fan but with XP at almost $200 and on the way out .. and Win 7 being a huge disaster ... Linux is free, Ubuntu for example can run easily on a netbook ... and is considered a full desktop OS now .. i even have MS Office installed on Ubuntu now.

 

-Cant move cameras around on DVR screen ... eg. drag drop, unless I missed it when using the latest version. Have to manually move them.

 

-Pigtails - I hate them .. but this is not just Geo .. still cant these manufacturers make a single BNC box? If I can design it easy enough, as I have, I am certain they could make one .. I cant make it though as I cannot find the right parts down here! What I did recently at least to make it neat was use 2 monitor cables and run them from the DVR to an alarm panel box, and the video and pigtails connect up in there. Its having that whole bundle of crap behind the DVR that vexes me. LOL One could probably put a BNC plate inside the box and use that and have it numbered properly to make it easy to remove and reconnect the BNCs .. but maybe for another Day.

 

There are other things I cant think of right now ... but really it being so much slower now in 8.3+ and requiring much faster hardware, is most of my rant.

 

I havent tried Nuuo .. i saw it on someone elses DVR recently but didnt have a chance to test it.

[rory 0]

Here are some images I captured from the Gen IV (Intellicam) live-feed demo of their G4-XLAHD:

 

These are all from real-time streaming video feeds at CIF resolution, 30 fps. Click each image to see at the full resolution as captured on my PC.

 

 

Are you 100% certain they are streaming the video at CIF? I dont mean the size of the video that you see, I mean the actual video. It could be 4 Cif but resized to smaller sizes, and heavily compressed. Additionally it could be D1 or 4 cif but have bandwidth and bitrates set to much lower, and be compressed more with their H.264 for faster video. Thats not the CIF you get on the recorded video anyway, which is my main concern. It doesnt look too bad though, but it is still rather blurry.

 

Unfortunately, no one was walking through their lobby at the time I captured these, but I have seen people in the feed in the past and you can recognize facial features, etc.

 

I'm not suggesting that CIF is as good as 4CIF or D1; obviously it cannot be at only half the resolution. But as I said earlier, I was surpised at the clarity of these CIF images, even expanded to a single full-frame. And I believe these are the same quality as recorded because they would have to compress with H.264 to stream these feeds over the Internet.

 

Rory, is this what you consider "blocky"? Or did you see something else on your demo?

 

Blocky is what the recorded CIF video was, remember, I never tested the remote video.

Whether the Recorded CIF video is as bad on their advanced unit or not, unsure as I guess I had the middle of the line one, and before HDMI, but it was bad on the slim line one which was the latest, BUT is the budget one. Now when i say bad, yes you can see people, inside .. but every little detail counts. In that case though it was also very blocky, nothing like in the remote video demo above. Recorded video is the most important part of a DVR, for evidence sharing.

 

Unfortunately the person that bought them for us to test chose not to spend anymore on those right now, to test the newer HDMI unit, as really in past experience there has never been that much of a difference between one or the next, and remember we did test the slimline HDMI unit. Hence he will spend the money right now to test the Hikvision standalone, and one of their cards .. I would be ever greatful if you could to bite the bullet and get one of the Intellicam 16 channel non slim lines .. with HDMI .. their best one .. I mean bottom line is you cant go wrong .. and test it for us ... but also for yourself .. but we are mainly testing units to resell down here and the cost on their most advanced unit is way too much anyway, after 35-45% Customs Duty, but would have been nice to see it anyway.