Need Advice Regarding Home Setup

[msw1090 0]

Good morning folks,

 

I'm looking for some advice for a security system home setup. Here are my specifications, let me know if they are monetarily realistic.

 

I would like:

 

* 4 Cameras

- Outdoor use (weatherproof)

- Powered by ethernet

- Web based viewing

- IR night recording

- Fairly wide FOV

 

I would like all these connected to some sort of DVR system for recording. Is this setup feasible?

[Henry-f 0]

Hi there.

 

When you say powered over ethernet and web based viewing be careful. IP type cameras tend to be very expensive for what they re and are really best suited to offices which have an extensive Cat5 network and the IT department are entrusted with the task of sorting out CCTV. It's their language, budget isn't too big an issue and so IP is the route to go.

 

The downside, especially when looking at outdoor cameras is that IP equals loads of money. As an example we sell very good quality zoom lens outdoor CCTV cameras for under £150. An IP version might cost well over £400 !! The other issue with powering your outdoor cameras over the ethernet is that you are limited in terms of power consumption. This means lower grade electronics and more importantly less powerful Infra-red illumination.

 

Don't worry though. Conventional CCTV cameras plugged into a DVR recorder can still be viewed over the internet providing the DVR recorder has an ethernet connection which can be plugged into your internet router. This allows your CCTV system to be viewed both over your local network and, with port forwarding on your router, the internet.

 

To connect the camera to the DVR recorder you can still potentially use Cat5 cable for ease of cable runs. You use a thing called a balun at each end of the pair of wires transmitting the video signal and then combine the remaining 3 pairs of wires to transfer 12 volt power to the camera from the transformer located next to your DVR recorder. Failing that we sell pre-made cables as well as what's known as shotgun cable. This is RG59 coaxial cable with a 2 core cable stuck on the side for the 12volt supply.

 

[edit by mod-please see rules regarding advertising]

 

All the best. Henry

[Henry-f 0]

Oh, and I meant to add: When you mention fairly wide field of view do bear in mind that as you go wider with your field of view you reduce the level of detail captured, especially further away form the camera.

 

Henry

[tomcctv 190]

Good morning folks,

 

I'm looking for some advice for a security system home setup. Here are my specifications, let me know if they are monetarily realistic.

 

I would like:

 

* 4 Cameras

- Outdoor use (weatherproof)

- Powered by ethernet

- Web based viewing

- IR night recording

- Fairly wide FOV

 

I would like all these connected to some sort of DVR system for recording. Is this setup feasible?

 

Hi msw1090.

 

yes it is feasible. but can you let us know what level of protection you need. (what will you be monitoring) you can go for a system like listed above but you will be buying cheap and unbranded (no back-up ) and as far as the last post yes you can go ip (will give you good FOV) than standard cameras. take a look at axis cameras in the camera demo site on this forum.

[Henry-f 0]

How does going IP give a greater field of vision over traditional CCTV cameras?

 

Surely the field of vision is dictated by the lens fitted to the camera. I can see how using IP to go megapixel will allow more detail to be captured (providing you are storing at a higher resolution and not just D1 when it will be exactly the same). By going megapixel you could go wider angle for the same pixel density per meter of coverage.

 

The problem is I suspect the original poster may not be too impressed with the cost of 4 megapixel cameras plus associated supporting hardware. This is a home install, not a Nevada Casino

 

Henry

[tomcctv 190]

How does going IP give a greater field of vision over traditional CCTV cameras?

 

Surely the field of vision is dictated by the lens fitted to the camera. I can see how using IP to go megapixel will allow more detail to be captured (providing you are storing at a higher resolution and not just D1 when it will be exactly the same). By going megapixel you could go wider angle for the same pixel density per meter of coverage.

 

The problem is I suspect the original poster may not be too impressed with the cost of 4 megapixel cameras plus associated supporting hardware. This is a home install, not a Nevada Casino

 

Henry

 

you cant do this with the cameras you listed plus the first post asked for poe. this is 1.3mp

[Henry-f 0]

Very nice indeed.

 

Now for the reality check.

 

4qty 1.3mp outdoor cameras with varifocal lens and built in I/R to support lens cost = ?

 

Hardware to record and store at 1280x1024, remote access etc cost = ?

 

Versus

 

4 good 550TVL outdoor 2.8-11mm or 9-22mm cameras under £600 for the lot

1 DVR plus 1TB hard drive £250

(assume cabling etc the same for both installs so ignore)

Total - about the same as one of the 1.3mp cameras

 

I love the thought of mega pixel technology especially when combined with the mindset of framing the subject properly etc to make best use of D1's 400k pixels. You get stunning results. It's just the cost which takes it out of reach of domestic and small business users.

 

Henry

[bpzle 0]

Henry does make some valid points...However I would have to agree with Tom and say that going with an off brand DVR is riskly. I've gone through plenty of my day and they tend to be pretty buggy with poorly written software and support.

 

Avermedia makes a killer 4 channel unit that in some cases is cheaper than what the no-name resllers are selling their junk for.

 

Aver is a bigger company, better support, and constant firmware/ patches are being developed for new feautres and compatability.

 

There's much more one has to consider than just a spec sheet... Ease of use, functionality, reliability, and most importantly support.

 

With no-name junk you're usually restricted to the reseller's support which is often times limited as they are not engineers/ software developers.

[rory 0]

Since you mentioned POE you must have some good pocket change to spend?

You would need a weatherproof IP Day Night IR camera for that, not cheap. (Axis)

You can get the same in non IP for almost 5 times less. (CNB)

And thats not even comparing it to a decent IR Megapixel. (Mobotix)

Additionally, the lower the resolution the better it sees in low light.

So first you need to decide what you can afford, or really want to see.

 

Also regarding the FOV, most True Day Night IR Bullet cameras will have a 4-9mm lens, there are SOME that have a wider lens. You can also get one much wider such as 1.24mm with a fixed lens camera such as a Color IR (not True Day Night) but you have to remember 2 things:

 

1-The IR Beam is normally only ever 30 degrees, while a 4mm lens for example is twice that.

2-The much wider angle lenses such as 1.24-2.45mm will require some hack job to the housing as they will normally show up the edges since it is so wide.

3-Color IR cameras typically have washed out colors due to lack of an IR Cut Filter.

 

Bottom line, make sure its a 1/3" lens, CCD, at least 811x508 total pixels, and you should be okay. Although ... well .. it will still depend.

[Henry-f 0]

I think we're probably a bit unusual in that we actually give more support on our DVRs that most (and please I'm not referring to anyone who posts on here), retailers give on branded DVRs. We are forever selling recorders to people who've bought a named brand off someone but between them they can't get the machine to do what they want or what it's supposed to. Because we offer support which includes network connection we know the products inside out. That also means we don't make claims of performance above their capabilities.

 

To me the most important thing for a domestic application is to find a retailer with the knowledge and willingness to spend a bit of time with you in the planning and sorting out any problems you have during installation. Box shifters, even if they are branded box shifters, can sometimes lack that knowledge or willingness.

 

I'm still intrigued to know the cost of the 1280 x 1024 set up for comparative purposes.

 

Henry

[Henry-f 0]

You made some very good points Rory. A couple of things I'd pick up on. There is a big gap between 4mm and 1.24mm. Our most popular lens is a 2.8-11mm which seems to give a good range for most applications which don't involve close up detail at very long distance. I wouldn't recommend going much wider than 2.8mm because even there detail drop off at distance is very noticeable.

 

You are spot on re: poor low light performance with the higher resolution cameras. I am amazed by the number of installers we speak to who have no concept of the difference between camera electronics. All they look for are headline TV Line figures and ironically lessen the effectiveness of the systems they install through poor low light capability. Ironic when most end users really value low light capability and see it as one of the top priorities in their wish list.

 

We worked really hard in creating what we brand as our Diamond Sony electronics pack. It's an HQ1 CCD / DSP combination but that was only half the battle. The initial HQ1 CCD DSP combo we tried was good during the day but terrible at night during back to back tests so it back to the drawing board. We ended up with a true 0.05lux capability, incidentally don't you just hate those low lux claims which are in fact amplified figures.

 

You are also right about the beam angle of built in I/R. Our recommendation would always be to combine your CCTV with background lighting and not to see CCTV as an isolated security solution.

 

Your final line confused me a little. I presume you meant 1/3" CCD rather than lens, but why 811 x 508 pixels if D1 resolution is 720 x 576 pixels.

 

Just to add, (for anyone reading this not familiar with CCTV), that when looking at resolution of cameras the non IP cameras will be rated in TVL (television lines) rather than pixels just to make things confusing. Who ever said CCTV was simple !! I even spoke to Pentax who were exhibiting opposite us at IFSEC and they referred to camera lenses in terms of pixels / mega-pixels. Go figure that one out ?

 

Henry

[rory 0]

Your final line confused me a little. I presume you meant 1/3" CCD rather than lens, but why 811 x 508 pixels if D1 resolution is 720 x 576 pixels.

Edit;

Total Image Pixels on a high res CCTV camera is 811x508, NTSC.

 

Also, well a 1/3" Lens and a 1/3" CCD, remember some people put other format lenses on 1/3" cameras also

[ak357 0]

 

NTSC D1 is 811x508.

 

quote]

 

Rory number of pixel on camera CCD and capture resolution are 2 different thing

 

NTSC D1 is not 811X508

[rory 0]

Rory number of pixel on camera CCD and capture resolution are 2 different thing

 

NTSC D1 is not 811X508

 

We are talking about CCTV Cameras, so no, not the capture resolution. Thanks for clarifying that.

[Henry-f 0]

To help the original poster and anyone else reading this who is in a similar boat looking for basic advice on CCTV systems you won't find normal CCTV camera's resolution quoted in terms of number of pixels by number of pixels. It will be quoted in terms of TVL or television lines. 450-500 upwards should suffice providing all the other considerations mentioned in the posts above are taken into account. As has been mentioned already rather than see TVL as the holy grail of camera choice consider also low light performance and most importantly a lens which allows you to fill your entire screen with your chosen subject matter.

 

IP cameras are usually sold in terms of total number of pixels captured just to make things complicated.

 

The D1 referred to in the posts above is the current industry standard best recording resolution for CCTV DVR recorders. For NTSC (American) systems D1 equates to 720 x 486 pixels. For PAL (UK) Systems D1 equates to 720 x 576 pixels give or take a few pixels. Another common recording resolution is CIF which is a quarter of the size of D1.

 

I'm conscious many people reading these posts are after quite simple advice and there is a danger we go off on a bit of a technical tangent which confuses more novice readers and posters. Please forgive me if I appear in any way patronising. That isn't my intention, it's just that I think the forum is a great resource for people unfamiliar with CCTV looking to buy a CCTV System or wanting to inform themselves prior to commissioning the supply and installation of one.

 

Anyway, off on my boat for a few day now, happy days.

 

Henry

[rory 0]

Actually one should ignore the TVL and go by the Total Image Pixels, all camera specs will list that and if they dont, dont buy the camera. For example, a 600TVL camera has the same total image pixels (811x508 NTSC) as a 480TVL camera, which concludes todays lesson on marketing hype.