Mobotix IP cameras vs traditional DVR

[munque 0]

I am looking to install cameras inside a retail location.

It would require about 48 regular ir cameras to give coverage throughout the store and outside in the parking lot.

 

I was looking to install Mobotix decentralized cameras but the cost is holding me back.

 

Any thoughts on this brand? Maybe a different and cheaper brand for an ip system?

[buellwinkle 0]

When you add the cost of outdoor housings, lenses and such, the Mobotix are not too expensive. The image quality is superb, unlike any other brand of camera I've seen. Also with 3MP resolution, you may be able to use less cameras compared to VGA resolution cameras.

 

If you want cheaper, consider the new M11 series from Axis, very nice cameras, auto-iris varifocal lenses, good night vision, easy to setup, h.264. Of course the downside is you will have to have software running on a PC and outdoor housings. Their top model is the M1114, just did a review on another forum.

 

With 48 cameras, it will be tough to have a PC that can handle this. First you'll have to break this up with an expensive switch into seperate VLANS so you don't flood the network. The wiring will be more complex than a decentralized approach. You'll need a serious raid device to store the videos from 48 cameras. You'll also need serious processors to handle al the decompression, so I would guess a dual socket xeons, 5400 series.

 

When you add the additional costs, it may be less expensive to use Mobotix. Simpler wiring, cheaper smaller switches, smaller less powerful PC, free software, free outdoor housings.

[rise 0]

I am looking to install cameras inside a retail location.

It would require about 48 regular ir cameras to give coverage throughout the store and outside in the parking lot.

 

I was looking to install Mobotix decentralized cameras but the cost is holding me back.

 

Any thoughts on this brand? Maybe a different and cheaper brand for an ip system?

 

Dear munque, depending on each task you can shoose proper solution for you. As you have many cameras in your system you can choose different resolution for each according to requirements to the image from camera (calculate it through pixels per feet/meter). If you will use VMS that support different verdors you can mix and match cameras with different resolutions. Consider different manufacturers and don't stop at Mobotix, you can use Mobotix cameras in the VMS system with other, for instance with Axis, IQeye and other cameras.

 

If you need cheaper you can consider ACTi - but take into account - maximum 1.3 megapixel. Meantime you would have places where you better would install one 3 or 5 megapixel camera to cover larger area instead of few 1.3 megapixel cameras. Also you can look at hybrid solutions with analog cameras on non-critical places like general overview or any rear door or small hall. Here you can also use IP cameras with VGA resolution.

 

All depending on budget and customer's requirements.

[buellwinkle 0]

Trouble with mixing camera brands is you bypass the decentralized approach of Mobotix which is the reason for chosing them. Also, finding the best camera for specific situations may cost you more wasted time learning different cameras, dealing with different support people.

 

Imagine if you will, that with Mobotix, you only need the network to view a camera live or to view historical events. You only need a PC capable of viewing, nothing else. The PC can be a cheap PC, tiny hard drive and a nice monitor. If it breaks, who cares, the camera can be viewed from any computer on the network. With a centralized approach, you need a computer capable of analyzing all those streams, writing multiple streams to disk, and sizing such a system won't be easy, not to mention the proper switches with vlan support and multiple network adapters on the PC, not only does it get expensive, it gets complicated. Then consider your failover, that PC becomes your single source of failure, so having a failover server can get expensive.

 

Also, you seriously can't compare an Acti to a Mobotix for image quality, not even in the same league.

[rory 0]

With the DVR you can backup several hours of video from 2 weeks ago, can you do that with the mobotix, without an NVR? 3x DVRs, a fast rack DVR cost approx $400 to build, or one that can handle 32 cameras approx $700, based on 2TB HDD, plus the cards ofcourse and extra HDDs, can then add any camera from dead cheap for low priority areas to higher end for more important capture. Either way, if cost is a factor, the DVR route will be be the best. If you meant NVR, not DVR, then that changes things.

[rise 0]

Trouble with mixing camera brands is you bypass the decentralized approach of Mobotix which is the reason for chosing them. Also, finding the best camera for specific situations may cost you more wasted time learning different cameras, dealing with different support people.

 

Imagine if you will, that with Mobotix, you only need the network to view a camera live or to view historical events. You only need a PC capable of viewing, nothing else. The PC can be a cheap PC, tiny hard drive and a nice monitor. If it breaks, who cares, the camera can be viewed from any computer on the network. With a centralized approach, you need a computer capable of analyzing all those streams, writing multiple streams to disk, and sizing such a system won't be easy, not to mention the proper switches with vlan support and multiple network adapters on the PC, not only does it get expensive, it gets complicated. Then consider your failover, that PC becomes your single source of failure, so having a failover server can get expensive.

 

Also, you seriously can't compare an Acti to a Mobotix for image quality, not even in the same league.

 

Dear buellwinkle,

Trouble with mixing camera brands is you bypass the decentralized approach of Mobotix which is the reason for chosing them. Also, finding the best camera for specific situations may cost you more wasted time learning different cameras, dealing with different support people.

I agree with you, Mobotix really has own unique approach in images recording. It’s useful but we shouldn’t use it in each application.

 

Finding the best camera for specific situations may cost more wasted time. [/b]

Yes. But in this case we can choose proper camera for each area – why we should take 3 megapixel indoor/outdoor Mobotix camera for any indoor area where we can take 2 megapixel indoor camera from different brand? This approach can save money for NVR and high performance workstation and CCTV monitor for operator (if retail location works non-stop and customer requires permanent operator).

Munque, which of requirements have customer to viewing and recording?

 

Imagine if you will, that with Mobotix, you only need the network to view a camera live or to view historical events. You only need a PC capable of viewing, nothing else. The PC can be a cheap PC, tiny hard drive and a nice monitor. If it breaks, who cares, the camera can be viewed from any computer on the network.

If I understand you correctly you mean approach when camera record video on itself. Maximal capacity of memory card supported by Mobotix is 32 Gb. IQeye, Axis and Basler also provide the same capability. And we can view video also from any PC from the network.

PC can be cheap but I don’t think that customer wants to connect to one camera if he wants to view images online. If he will view images from all cameras simultaneously he will need high-performance workstation with enough memory amount, processor and video card to visualize all cameras.

 

With a centralized approach, you need a computer capable of analyzing all those streams, writing multiple streams to disk, and sizing such a system won't be easy, not to mention the proper switches with vlan support and multiple network adapters on the PC, not only does it get expensive, it gets complicated. Then consider your failover, that PC becomes your single source of failure, so having a failover server can get expensive.

 

Computer capable of analyzing all those streams

NVR analyzes streams only if it performs motion detection (as you know almost all well-known IP cameras perform motion detection on itself) or video analytic at itself. In other cases it just records images and provides streams for viewing. Yes, with 48 cameras you can’t view and record images on the same NVR, you will need separate workstation or PC for viewing.

 

the proper switches with vlan support and multiple network adapters on the PC

We don’t need here VLAN if it is separate network dedicated for video surveillance.

 

Multiple network adapters on the PC

You will need just one gigabit port on NVR. If customer wants to view images in separate corporate network you will need second gigabit port. But you can also install second Ethernet card on customer’s PC and connect it to the video surveillance network. Here you have different ways and at this time NVRs or servers provided with two gigabit ports by default.

 

And let’s back to the decentralized approach – maximal capacity of SDHC memory card supported by Mobotix is 32 Gb. At 32 Gb according to this page http://www.mobotix.com/eng_AU/Products/Camera-Functions/Frame-rate we take 1.2 Mbit/s for 1.3 megapixel resolution. But there isn’t any information is it stream without motion in scene or with it.

Anyway at these parameters you can store video for 7 days maximum with 8-hours recording per day.

I estimated it in 3 calculators:

First one http://www.milestonesys.com/support/questions_and_answers/estimator_and_calculators/storage+calculator

1 camera, 15 kb image size, 10 fps image rate, 7 days to store, 8 hours recording per day, 100% motion, disk space = 28.84 Gb, bandwidth = 1.23 Mbit/s

Second one

http://www.exacq.com/evCalc/exacqVisionCalculator.html

1 camera, MPEG4 (sorry, there isn’t option to choose MxPEG. I fit data to 1.2 Mbit/s from Mobotix page), 6 ips, 33% motion, 24,414 kb image size, 1.144 Mbps bandwidth per camera. Required disk space = 59,937 Gb (includes 30 Gb OS partition). Exclude it and required disk space is 29,937 Gb. Almost the same like at Milestone page

Third one is storage calculator for SeeTec VMS

1 camera, MPEG4, 7 days recording, MPEG4 bandwidth is 1200 kbit/s, 8 hours recording = 28.84 Gb.

Of course there are approximate estimations but what if we need more than 7 days or when we take 3 megapixel resolution. For sure this quantity will be higher especially if there is a lot of motion in the area like in retail location and customer want to store longer… Mobotix will also use centralized approach.

 

Then consider your failover, that PC becomes your single source of failure, so having a failover server can get expensive.

First of all here we use specialized NVR (like Exacq or Geutebruck) or 3rd party server (HP, Dell) that intended for work in 24x7 mode and have high-quality components. The first device in NVR that can fail is HDD. Here we shouldn’t use consumer PCs and HDDs that intended for 8-hours work per day. NVR and 3rd party server manufacturers power their NVRs with server HDDs that intended for work in mode 24x7. For now we can use RAID mode for additional reliability that prevent video loss in case of HDD failure. Or if we haven’t RAID option we change failed HDD with new one here we loss video but all is depend on customer – more reliable system is more expensive. Also there is the possibility to control HDDs status if you want support work of your system without any failures.

 

Also, you seriously can't compare an Acti to a Mobotix for image quality, not even in the same league.

I’m not against Mobotix, it’s possible to use it in this project, but not in all areas. Of course the last word of course is the customer’s word but they he also should know what he gets.

[thewireguys 3]

Mobotix has a great product but there software is terrible.

Edited June 21, 2010 by Guest

[buellwinkle 0]

While you can use the SD card slot, you can always use an inexpensive NAS. I use WD MyBook World Edition, $169 for 1TB, recomended by Mobotix support. You can have between 1 and about 4 cameras per NAS. There are other cameras that can write to local or NAS storage, but only Mobotix provides a complete solution inside the camera where you can review historical events. Other cameras like Vivotek that allow you to write to NAS, only write out files, it does not allow to go back in and review what was writen. Also, the software from Mobotix, should you chose to use it is totally free and supports other cameras. The problem I have with IQinVision is they only support writing to NAS on their most expensive cameras, so you don't have the luxury of mix & match on their cameras.

 

With 48 cameras, you can record onto a single PC, but the network has to broken into multiple subnets, hence the VLAN requirement or just buy 4 12-16 port switches and keep them seperate. The server likely has to have multiple sockets of quad core chips and a good amount of memory. Then you probably need external storage to allow for multiple terabytes of data, say 100GB per camera, that's 5TB of usuable storage, or really a 8TB NAS with Raid 5. Did you think you can have 48 multiple megapixels cameras on one network? I would guess that such a system, with software included would run $20-30K, just guessing. I would have the software vendor size the system, if a centralized approach is desired. Now this is a pretty complex system and while something like a HP Proliant will stay up for years, most people cheap out. A lot can go wrong, having a centralized solutions just makes it a single point of failure.

 

Thewiredguys, I would agree that their software is not the easiest to use, but MX ControlCenter is very functional. Never had trouble finding what I needed to find, but I'm a tech geek, so it doesn't bother me.

[rise 0]

While you can use the SD card slot, you can always use an inexpensive NAS. I use WD MyBook World Edition, $169 for 1TB, recomended by Mobotix support. You can have between 1 and about 4 cameras per NAS. There are other cameras that can write to local or NAS storage, but only Mobotix provides a complete solution inside the camera where you can review historical events. Other cameras like Vivotek that allow you to write to NAS, only write out files, it does not allow to go back in and review what was writen. Also, the software from Mobotix, should you chose to use it is totally free and supports other cameras. The problem I have with IQinVision is they only support writing to NAS on their most expensive cameras, so you don't have the luxury of mix & match on their cameras.

 

With 48 cameras, you can record onto a single PC, but the network has to broken into multiple subnets, hence the VLAN requirement or just buy 4 12-16 port switches and keep them seperate. The server likely has to have multiple sockets of quad core chips and a good amount of memory. Then you probably need external storage to allow for multiple terabytes of data, say 100GB per camera, that's 5TB of usuable storage, or really a 8TB NAS with Raid 5. Did you think you can have 48 multiple megapixels cameras on one network? I would guess that such a system, with software included would run $20-30K, just guessing. I would have the software vendor size the system, if a centralized approach is desired. Now this is a pretty complex system and while something like a HP Proliant will stay up for years, most people cheap out. A lot can go wrong, having a centralized solutions just makes it a single point of failure.

 

Thewiredguys, I would agree that their software is not the easiest to use, but MX ControlCenter is very functional. Never had trouble finding what I needed to find, but I'm a tech geek, so it doesn't bother me.

 

Dear buellwinkle, until topic starter gives us additional tasks from customer like online viewing, storage duration, pixel density requirements, we can argue here infinitely about solutions offered from me and you.

[buellwinkle 0]

Just debating a decentralized approach vs centralized.

[G22 0]

Curious, how do you access and view the Mobotix vids on a NAS? Just FTP into the NAS, and download avi's, mpg's, etc.? Do folders/filenames have meaningful names? ie. 'MOTION-CAM1-MMDDYYYY-HHMMSS'

[thewireguys 3]

Curious, how do you access and view the Mobotix vids on a NAS? Just FTP into the NAS, and download avi's, mpg's, etc.? Do folders/filenames have meaningful names? ie. 'MOTION-CAM1-MMDDYYYY-HHMMSS'

 

You use Mx ControlCenter or Mx Easy to view the video just like any other NVR software.

 

http://www.mobotix.com/eng_US/Support/Software-Downloads

 

Download the MxControlCenter DemoPack Release 2.2.1

[buellwinkle 0]

Yes, the best way is to use their free softare as mentioned. What you see on the NAS is a jpg of the intial shot, but the video is in Mobotix's propriatary format, you can't access it directly off the NAS. With MX ControlCenter, you can look at a film strip of all the events in a time period you specify, then when you click on an image, it will play the video. You can also export the video to a common format you can share.

 

You can also look at video stored on the NAS directly from the camera where it provides a list of events by time, you click on a time before the event and it starts showing you the single shots one at a time, when you know which event it is that you want, you can play the video but to the best of my knowledge, there's no way to export the video at that time, you need the software above.

 

The Mobotix solution is complete, but also complex. I would recomend you ready the MX ControlCenter manual before using it so you won't get frustrated. It's not intuitive, but it is very usable once you figure it out.