CIF, D1, H.264 Mayhem!

[survtech 0]

From the VCM-24VF spec sheet:

You do know that CNB is Korean/Chinese? Doesn't that make their cameras "cheap"?

[rory 0]

Looks like someones feelings are hurt.

Why would you say that? You mis-stated something and I corrected you. It doesn't bother me that you were wrong.

 

I posted facts, you got confused and your feelings were hurt so you got mad at me.

If I was wrong for not writing an entire essay explaining EVERYTHING, then for that I apologize but I have lots of other work to do.

[rory 0]

Yes I do want to know the difference between effective and total and what effect they have on an image. If I came across as being sarcastic on my last question, I wasnt. I actually would like to know.

 

On most of the specs of the cameras that I have came across either does not distinguish between the 2, or it just describes the effective so thats why I was curious.

BTW There are 1000TVL CRT monitors.

However they [typically] only come in B/W.

They are great for focusing though, color OR bw cameras.

until they drop off the ladder

[Soundy 1]

Wow, who knew the original subject line would turn out to be so prophetic?

[survtech 0]

Looks like someones feelings are hurt.

Why would you say that? You mis-stated something and I corrected you. It doesn't bother me that you were wrong.

 

I posted facts, you got confused and your feelings were hurt so you got mad at me.

If I was wrong for not writing an entire essay explaining EVERYTHING, then for that I apologize but I have lots of other work to do.

What facts? Cheap Chinese ones?

 

Counting unused pixels is like counting unused brain cells - they may look good on paper but are of absolutely no use except to fill the cranium!

[rory 0]

Speaking of Chinese ...

 

Pelco:

A day after laying off about 100 manufacturing and support workers at Pelco’s home plant in Clovis, company officials disclosed plans last week to begin making some products in China by this spring.

Pelco, owned by French conglomerate Schneider Electric since 2007, makes video cameras and other equipment for the security and surveillance industries worldwide. Fages said Pelco decided about 1 1/2 years ago to start manufacturing in China to take advantage of explosive growth there. “It’s something that doesn’t start overnight,” he said.

http://clovisindependent.com/2010/01/25/pelco-to-begin-some-manufacturing-in-china/

 

Bosch:

The Bosch Group invested $58 million US dollars in a new security systems manufacturing facility in Zhuhai, Guangdong Province. Covering more than 147,000 square feet, it is the largest manufacturing plant for Bosch Security Systems, Inc. and will provide employment for 1,500 associates.

In addition to supplying products and systems for China, the plant will also support the Asia Pacific region and the world market.

http://cctv.boschsecuritynews.us/e_article001026649.cfm?x=b11,0,w

[survtech 0]

Yes I do want to know the difference between effective and total and what effect they have on an image. If I came across as being sarcastic on my last question, I wasnt. I actually would like to know.

 

On most of the specs of the cameras that I have came across either does not distinguish between the 2, or it just describes the effective so thats why I was curious.

BTW There are 1000TVL CRT monitors.

However they [typically] only come in B/W.

They are great for focusing though, color OR bw cameras.

until they drop off the ladder

I did say color! How many colors can you see on your monochrome monitor?

 

Since you seem to know it all, perhaps you would like to explain to the readers why there are 1000 line monochrome monitors but color monitor resolution is typically limited to 450 lines?

[SEANHAWG 1]

Wow, who knew the original subject line would turn out to be so prophetic?

 

LOL, I didnt mean to start a riot.

[rory 0]

Yes I do want to know the difference between effective and total and what effect they have on an image. If I came across as being sarcastic on my last question, I wasnt. I actually would like to know.

 

On most of the specs of the cameras that I have came across either does not distinguish between the 2, or it just describes the effective so thats why I was curious.

I forgot to mention, additionally there are 650-850TVL Color Monitors, however they are generally much more expensive then BW monitors and other lower resolution color monitors:

 

Eg:

http://products.boschsecurity.us/en/TAMS/products/bxp/SKUF.01U.506.983-CATM0f733378d49400592e30640055235308

http://computarganz.com/product_view.cfm?product_id=361

http://www.pelco.com/global/en/products/monitor-solutions/range-presentation.page?p_function_id=10510&p_family_id=10267&p_range_id=2995

http://www.specotech.com/cart/products/productDetails.asp?prodID=333

[rory 0]

Wow, who knew the original subject line would turn out to be so prophetic?

 

LOL, I didnt mean to start a riot.

Its okay, not everyone will agree with each other. Please read this before you take everything you read here at face value:

 

"In light of our policy of encouraging candid, open exchanges of views and the rapid distribution of information originating from many sources, CCTV Forum cannot determine the accuracy of information that may be posted to the Forums.

 

Opinions, advice and all other information expressed by participants in discussions are those of the author. You rely on such information at your own risk. Participants are urged to seek professional advice for specific, individual situations and not rely solely on advice or opinions given in the discussions."

 

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3144

[survtech 0]

I forgot to mention, additionally there are 650-850TVL Color Monitors, however they are generally much more expensive then BW monitors and other lower quality color monitors:

Yes, that is what they claim. However, we placed so-called 600-line JVC monitors right alongside 450-line Samsung monitors and fed them with a variety of color cameras rated at between 470 lines and 540 lines and the actual, real-life resolution improvement was marginal, at best.

 

Perhaps the rest of the equipment in the chain was the limiting factor but we couldn't identify the suits of more than 70% of non-face cards and pretty much any face cards on the same gaming table using any camera fed to any monitor (including the JVC and Samsung CRTs and the Orion LCD).

 

In my opinion, once an NTSC color camera gets to 470-480 lines, everthing else is marketing hype. The same goes for monitors. There are subtle differences: on some cameras, the limit was ~60% suit ID while on others it was up to 70%. The reason for those differences had nothing to do with pixel count, etc.

 

In fact, our best resolution results came from Pelco CCC1300H2 and CCC1370H2 cameras rated at 470-480 lines; but in an area with a relatively large amount of blue in the lighting. The area was indirectly lit by twin 8' flourescent lamps encased in blue sleeves that reflected off the ceiling. I believe that the shorter wavelength of the blue lighting and its indirect, diffuse nature had something to do with our results.

 

The only ways we can ID card suits is using multiple analog cameras per table or using at least XVGA cameras (1024x768).

 

By the way, all my discussions of resolution assume NTSC equipment. PAL, by its very nature, has better horizontal resolution.

[rory 0]

I forgot to mention, additionally there are 650-850TVL Color Monitors, however they are generally much more expensive then BW monitors and other lower quality color monitors:

Yes, that is what they claim. However, we placed so-called 600-line JVC monitors right alongside 450-line Samsung monitors and fed them with a variety of color cameras rated at between 470 lines and 540 lines and the actual, real-life resolution improvement was marginal, at best.

 

Perhaps the rest of the equipment in the chain was the limiting factor but we couldn't identify the suits of more than 70% of non-face cards and pretty much any face cards on the same gaming table using any camera fed to any monitor (including the JVC and Samsung CRTs and the Orion LCD).

 

In my opinion, once an NTSC color camera gets to 470-480 lines, everthing else is marketing hype. The same goes for monitors. There are subtle differences: on some cameras, the limit was ~60% suit ID while on others it was up to 70%. The reason for those differences had nothing to do with pixel count, etc.

 

In fact, our best resolution results came from Pelco CCC1300H2 and CCC1370H2 cameras rated at 470-480 lines; but in an area with a relatively large amount of blue in the lighting. The area was indirectly lit by twin 8' flourescent lamps encased in blue sleeves that reflected off the ceiling. I believe that the shorter wavelength of the blue lighting and its indirect, diffuse nature had something to do with our results.

 

The only ways we can ID card suits is using multiple analog cameras per table or using at least XVGA cameras (1024x768).

 

By the way, all my discussions of resolution assume NTSC equipment. PAL, by its very nature, has better horizontal resolution.

 

I actually agree

[nancyh1980 0]

Don't mean to Hi-Jack this thread. However, this is within the same subject.

Experts, if the eyes can't differentiate between 15-30fps, then why would one purchase a DVR, same maker & reputable brand, that records full D1, 120fps 4-ch video OVER one that records full D1, 60fps 4-ch? The former costs 3 times the latter.

[rory 0]

Don't mean to Hi-Jack this thread. However, this is within the same subject.

Experts, if the eyes can't differentiate between 15-30fps, then why would one purchase a DVR, same maker & reputable brand, that records full D1, 120fps 4-ch video OVER one that records full D1, 60fps 4-ch? The former costs 3 times the latter.

I agree, in fact it is actually common to go 8-ch 60, 16-ch 120, or 16-ch 480/120

especially as the cost can be quite extra.

Its rare for someone to do a 4-ch 120 PC card at least in my experience, especially since it can cost alot more then the 30 or 60fps cards. Most going 4 channel are looking for something on a budget, in fact most at least down here just buy the 4 channel basic stand alone DVRs, then if they want 8+ channels move up to the PC based. Also the specified fps is many times based on CIF only, less if D1.

[Soundy 1]

Don't mean to Hi-Jack this thread. However, this is within the same subject.

Experts, if the eyes can't differentiate between 15-30fps, then why would one purchase a DVR, same maker & reputable brand, that records full D1, 120fps 4-ch video OVER one that records full D1, 60fps 4-ch? The former costs 3 times the latter.

This is a point I often make when someone start spewing out specs/requirements for full 30fps/channel: not only will you probably not notice the difference at 15fps in most cases, but you probably won't see an *appreciable* difference at 7-8fps either, unless you're recording fast-moving objects.

 

We do systems for two of Canada's major oil companies, and frankly, both of them spec only 1fps for *every* camera (although we usually dial it up a bit for critical views like front door and paypoint shots). As "nice" as full-motion video looks, it's rarely NECESSARY. When you're looking to save on storage costs, framerate is one of the first compromises you should make.

[ak357 0]

 

We do systems for two of Canada's major oil companies, and frankly, both of them spec only 1fps for *every* camera (although we usually dial it up a bit for critical views like front door and paypoint shots). As "nice" as full-motion video looks, it's rarely NECESSARY. When you're looking to save on storage costs, framerate is one of the first compromises you should make.

 

Just curios

Why do u think two of Canada's major oil companies

spec only 1 fps for every camera ?

[Soundy 1]

I wouldn't even begin to guess WHY... obviously though, they found it sufficient over the last five or six years, or you'd think they would have increased it.

 

Compared to the time-lapse VCRs and muxes the systems are replacing, 1fps is smoooooooth.

[survtech 0]

I think that the real question is frame rate vs. resolution. There are a number of DVRs that advertise themselves as, say, 4-channel 60fps. Unfortunately, many of them can only do that frame rate at CIF. Despite having the capability to do 4CIF, the maximum frame rate often drops to 15fps, or less than 4fps per camera.

[SEANHAWG 1]

This may be a dumb question, but I'll go ahead and ask it anyways. Do they make DVR's that have no video compression? Sure, it would significantly take up alot of hard-drive space but surely they have security DVR's out there that can record at full video quality right? That will record exactly what it looks like when live viewing?

[thewireguys 3]

Just record at Mjpeg with no compression. Don't know if DVRs can be setup like this but VMS can.

[Soundy 1]

The HDcctv guys claim they can do it. Frankly, most decent compression systems will be virtually indistinguishable from uncompressed, IF you max out the "quality" settings on the codec, and still give you some fair space savings. Most systems just either do not come with that level set, or don't allow the absolute highest quality to be set.

[rory 0]

uncompressed with generic codecs are huge .. eg. 800mb file in less then 60 seconds.

test out the BT drivers and something like AmCap or vidCap.

Good quality but files too large .. can shrink to wmv though from 800 down to 80.

[SEANHAWG 1]

Has anyone tried to manipulate a Regular DVR such as a dish network or directv dvr to work for security purposes. Or the regular DVR's that are meant just to record TV shows or movies? You obviously could only use these for single channel purposes though.

[nancyh1980 0]

Has anyone tried to manipulate a Regular DVR such as a dish network or directv dvr to work for security purposes. Or the regular DVR's that are meant just to record TV shows or movies? You obviously could only use these for single channel purposes though.

 

oh boy, my EBF superior customers, aka engineers, have tried, tried, and tried. They always called in later for DVRs!

[thewireguys 3]

Has anyone tried to manipulate a Regular DVR such as a dish network or directv dvr to work for security purposes. Or the regular DVR's that are meant just to record TV shows or movies? You obviously could only use these for single channel purposes though.

 

Why would you want to do this?