HDCCTV is the new standard

[Soundy 1]

Todd Rockoff, Chairman and Executive Director of the HDcctv Alliance and Craig Scott, CEO at OVii and a highly vocal supporter of HDcctv have posted numerous and often unwelcome statements just about everywhere touting the supposed benefits of HDcctv while conveniently ignoring pointed questions and criticisms of the technology.

And Scott, don't forget Scott!

[survtech 0]

And Scott, don't forget Scott!

Scott who? Don't you mean Craig Scott, about whom I referred.

[Soundy 1]

Not counting having to rewire the site with RG6

Just looking at a local retailer's website... regular retail (non-sale) prices:

 

RG6, 1000', $105.

Cat5e, 1000', $96.

RG59+18/2 Siamese, 500', $158.

 

Oddly, they don't list straight RG59 in bulk, but they do have it at 40c/ft, whereas RG6 and Cat5e are 35c/ft.

 

So you tell me which is cheaper... AND more versatile!

[Soundy 1]

And Scott, don't forget Scott!

Scott who? Don't you mean Craig Scott, about whom I referred.

oops, right you are, my bad. i was close!

[rory 0]

long as it can work with RG59 which is what most people have installed.

But then what else is needed? How much is the extra equipment?

[Soundy 1]

But then what else is needed? How much is the extra equipment?

This is what I and others have been asking here, and elsewhere, for some time now. It's the one question they always manage to skirt around - the best anyone can come up with is "the same price range as analog CCTV".

[thewireguys 3]

 

 

Holy motion blur batman!!!

 

 

Please tell me this isn't the best you can do. I have seen cheap Chinese crap with better images then this.

 

I have access to a live demo of a 720P HDcctv camera and it is no better then this, not impressed at all.

[Soundy 1]

Holy motion blur batman!!!

 

 

Please tell me this isn't the best you can do. I have seen cheap Chinese crap with better images then this.

 

I have access to a live demo of a 720P HDcctv camera and it is no better then this, not impressed at all.

Even full-framerate uncompressed video has to follow the laws of physics, and the simple fact is, the higher the resolution, the smaller the pixes, the less light-gathering capability, which has to be compensated for somewhere else... either by better image processing, or slower shutter speeds.

[SEANHAWG 1]

I have to admit that this sounds kind of cool. If they can really produce hi-def 720p or 1080p video and keep the price around the same as a good analog camera then why not?

 

Of course, I would have to see to believe but from "hearing" about it, it sounds like a pretty cool concept. Breaking through the resolution limitations of a regular analog camera while keeping the functionality the same and the price the same sounds like a great idea. From what I understand, you will have to get an HD DVR. If this can all be achievable and functional then I could see where there would be alot of folks who would prefer this over IP because of functionality and costs.

 

But like I said, the concept sounds great but until I see it first hand, I cant place a good review.

[survtech 0]

Even full-framerate uncompressed video has to follow the laws of physics, and the simple fact is, the higher the resolution, the smaller the pixes, the less light-gathering capability, which has to be compensated for somewhere else... either by better image processing, or slower shutter speeds.

And table games are not noted for having the best lighting in many casinos. Even in ours, we are lucky if we get 80-100 lux at the surface and 10 lux reflected at 1-2 feet above, which usually translates to less than 1 lux at the camera.

[Soundy 1]

I have to admit that this sounds kind of cool. If they can really produce hi-def 720p or 1080p video and keep the price around the same as a good analog camera then why not?

Ah, but there's the catch: the PRICE.

 

So far they state over and over that the price will be "comparable" to analog cameras... but does that mean $15 Chinese junk, or $600+ CW484s? That's a pretty broad statement with no real specifics.

 

Keep in mind too, that they're pushing this as a viable alternative to IP megapixel... yet even 1080p (1920x1080) is barely 2MP. As with everything else about them, they state that it WILL exceed that... at some unknown point in the future.

 

From what I understand, you will have to get an HD DVR.

You'd need either a new DVR, or a new capture/interface card, at least. Still no word on whether there are hybrid systems on the slate, which is a major issue: if they're marketing this as an upgrade path for existing analog installations, then they need to have hybrid systems; otherwise you're looking at either replacing ALL your analog cameras, or needing to run two separate systems for the analog and HD.

 

If this can all be achievable and functional then I could see where there would be alot of folks who would prefer this over IP because of functionality and costs.

Ah yes, but that assumes they're being entirely truthful on the costs. The cameras may be in a similar price range, but there's also the cost of replacing/upgrading/supplementing your current DVR.

 

Personally, I think their price claims will prove to be overly ambitious: IP has been dropping rapidly the past couple years because of competition in the marketplace and the economies of scale (when you're selling thousands of cameras, you don't need to make as much on each one compared to when you're just selling hundreds). HDcctv has neither benefit yet; manufacturers will probably have to sell cameras at a loss initially just to move them at the claimed price point, because they'll still have development costs to deal with.

 

 

But like I said, the concept sounds great but until I see it first hand, I cant place a good review.

But... but... they have the pretty pictures they posted!

[survtech 0]

SG Digital's HD offerings include PC-based Hybrids with 1, 2, 4 or 8 720p HD inputs with or without 16 analog inputs. The analog inputs are somewhat framerate limited with 60-240fps at CIF :

 

 

SGD-1HD30-16CIF120

One channel HD/Sixteen channel Analog Hybrid DVR

Serial Digital Interface (SDI) transmission

H.264/MPEG-4 compression

HD Recording: 1280 X 720 @ 30 FPS per camera

Analog Recording: 120 FPS @ CIF

Record modes: Schedule/Continuous/Motion Detection

HD-SDI camera (720P)

Video out: HD-SDI (BNC type)

Data Backup: HDD, DVD, USB

DDNS

POS

Live Zoom

User-friendly GUI

Multi-site CMS software, up to 32 channel

 

That's <1fps/camera to <4fps/camera @4CIF on the analog side. On the brighter side, there are those 1-8 HD cameras at 30fps each (15fps each for the 8-HD camera model).

 

Supposedly, a standalone 4-channel HD DVR is coming out this fall, but I don't have details.

[rory 0]

Im not sold. Yet. People would have to switch from DVRs they are use to, to this one. Also where do they leave all their existing clients and all the money they already spent? They have to not only learn this new system, but also teach their clients it, and the selection of cameras doesnt look that impressive. And maybe Im missing it but I dont see any screen shots or info on the DVR software? How about some video demos and more image samples?

 

What might be an idea is if they provide a way to add this to any existing DVR, or at least other PC based DVRs.

[survtech 0]

Im not sold. Yet. People would have to switch from DVRs they are use to, to this one. Also where do they leave all their existing clients and all the money they already spent? They have to not only learn this new system, but also teach their clients it, and the selection of cameras doesnt look that impressive. And maybe Im missing it but I dont see any screen shots or info on the DVR software? How about some video demos and more image samples?

I agree with that.

 

What might be an idea is if they provide a way to add this to any existing DVR, or at least other PC based DVRs.

The cards are available, but I'm not so certain about the software.

 

Stretch VRC6404HD4 Channel High Definition PCIe DVR Add-in Card

 

4 channel high definition input using HDcctv Technology

Full 120 frames per second compression

H.264 Scalable Video CODEC for maximum flexibility

Embedded analytics to optimize compression efficiency

Fully compatible with the Stretch DVR Software Development Kit

[Soundy 1]

What would really help sell me is if existing DVR systems were updated to use this within their own software: plug this card into a GV or Vigil or Video Insight or Exacq or NUUO box, and the cameras just show up alongside the other analog and/or IP cameras.

[survtech 0]

I'm far from trying to sell it. In fact, some members of the HDcctv Alliance might refer to me as a nuisance.

[rory 0]

thanks survtech ill take a look at it ... they do have some software on the stretch site it seems ... not sure what it is though.

 

EDIT. nah still cant find any real info on it .. no screen shots nothing, just talk of an SDK.

[Soundy 1]

I'm far from trying to sell it. In fact, some members of the HDcctv Alliance might refer to me as a nuisance.

Ha! You and me both... we certainly do our part keeping them all honest over on... er, that other forum I'm probably a little snippier with them, but Carl's certainly more curmudgeonly

[koolmer 0]

I thought this stuff is already existing for a while. I have seen it months ago on www.comartsystems.com

 

Anyways - it seems that the stuff is available. See www.comarthd.com

They don't tell the prices, but they make it look like it can be bought.

 

I don't think this is going to have any success. IP has taken over and has many benefits over HDCCTV. HDCCTV is not compatible with anything that people have right now. Sometimes not even the coax cable. It is also WAAAAY too expensive. A 23" screen cost 2300 $. For this amount of money I can build a real good hybrid DVR + 24" screen!

[thewireguys 3]

Holy motion blur batman!!!

 

 

Please tell me this isn't the best you can do. I have seen cheap Chinese crap with better images then this.

 

I have access to a live demo of a 720P HDcctv camera and it is no better then this, not impressed at all.

Even full-framerate uncompressed video has to follow the laws of physics, and the simple fact is, the higher the resolution, the smaller the pixes, the less light-gathering capability, which has to be compensated for somewhere else... either by better image processing, or slower shutter speeds.

 

I really don't consider those locations dark/low light. I can understand that the gamings can be very difficult but even the fast food place is not good.

[survtech 0]

...Carl's certainly more curmudgeonly

I would call it persistent!

[jhonovich 0]

On the future 300m distance, according to a presentation from Gennum (the chip manufacturer driving this), the greater distance depends on the development of a new Long Reach CODEC that reduces the bandwidth from camera to recorder from 1.485 Gb/s to 270 Mb/s. They plan to use a 'visually lossless CODEC' to accomplish. When and how they will do this still remains to be seen. Also, the cost increase will be important to consider as one of the selling points was that not encoding significantly reduced the cost and complexity of the HDcctv camera.

 

As for the price, we have tracked the price for 2 providers with released or imminent products - SGI Digital and Speco - both HDcctv box cameras are over $1000 MSRP. The recorders are pretty expensive as well. The HDcctv group maintains that prices will come down with volume and scale. Until then, the pricing is not terribly attractive. IPVM members can read the details and a discussion with Todd at: http://ipvideomarket.info/updates/687

[Soundy 1]

On the future 300m distance, according to a presentation from Gennum (the chip manufacturer driving this), the greater distance depends on the development of a new Long Reach CODEC that reduces the bandwidth from camera to recorder from 1.485 Gb/s to 270 Mb/s. They plan to use a 'visually lossless CODEC' to accomplish. When and how they will do this still remains to be seen. Also, the cost increase will be important to consider as one of the selling points was that not encoding significantly reduced the cost and complexity of the HDcctv camera.

So much for the much-ballyhooed claims of the benefits of "uncompressed video". "Visually lossless" is all fine and dandy, but one of the main selling points the Alliance has been pushing was how much better "uncompressed" video is for live monitoring, and how NOT encoding on the camera allows better real-time viewing with no lag time. I guess they're finding that it's not as simple as all that...

[survtech 0]

On the future 300m distance, according to a presentation from Gennum (the chip manufacturer driving this), the greater distance depends on the development of a new Long Reach CODEC that reduces the bandwidth from camera to recorder from 1.485 Gb/s to 270 Mb/s. They plan to use a 'visually lossless CODEC' to accomplish. When and how they will do this still remains to be seen. Also, the cost increase will be important to consider as one of the selling points was that not encoding significantly reduced the cost and complexity of the HDcctv camera.

So much for the much-ballyhooed claims of the benefits of "uncompressed video". "Visually lossless" is all fine and dandy, but one of the main selling points the Alliance has been pushing was how much better "uncompressed" video is for live monitoring, and how NOT encoding on the camera allows better real-time viewing with no lag time. I guess they're finding that it's not as simple as all that...

John,

 

I agree with Soundy. With the advent of any form of compression, lossy or lossless, comes latency. There's no way around it!

 

Another point, one of the claims of the Alliance is that all versions of their systems will be both backward and forward compatible. I don't see how they can maintain that compatibility while deploying/not deploying compression. Are some cameras going to deploy compression while others won't, depending on the resolution and distance requirements they have to meet or will all HDcctv cameras deploy compression or will it be switchable? How will legacy (v1.0-compatible) HDcctv systems handle v2.0 cameras?

[jeromephone 6]

Vitek was supposed to have a camera out this spring have never heard anymore about it. If the major dvr guys come out with an add on card or similar I am not going to plan on going this route. If geo or nuuo has hybrid solution why not go to IP and if necessary for a great live view just loop out of the HDMI output on the camera (sanyo)