HDCCTV is the new standard

[rory 0]

I see a KT&C TDN IR Bullet HDCCTV selling in the US now .. its about 2x the cost of their non HDCCTV one.

 

now if we could just afford the DVRs and find other cameras ..

a TDN IR bullet wont work for every location.

[survtech 0]

Hmmm --- theres that issue, which keeps sticking out like a sore thumb now!

 

Works with existing Co-ax????

It will, if the existing coax is Belden 1694A or equivalent.

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

Hmmm --- theres that issue, which keeps sticking out like a sore thumb now!

 

Works with existing Co-ax????

It will, if the existing coax is Belden 1694A or equivalent.

 

 

Probability scenario in South Africa ---- 1% - optimistically!

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

Hmmm --- theres that issue, which keeps sticking out like a sore thumb now!

 

Works with existing Co-ax????

It will, if the existing coax is Belden 1694A or equivalent.

 

 

Probability scenario in South Africa ---- 1% - optimistically! But that's not the worst of it ---- this is just to operate at the lower end of a 2MP camera frequency (uncompressed) so anything higher than 2MP and......move to ip anyway??

[SEANHAWG 1]

The way I look at it is people would be willing to pay for more expensive coax if the cameras and DVR's were alot cheaper. Perhaps this could not be said for very large installs where cabling really becomes a large part of the budget but for small installs for homes and small businesses, I think it would fly.

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

The way I look at it is people would be willing to pay for more expensive coax if the cameras and DVR's were alot cheaper. Perhaps this could not be said for very large installs where cabling really becomes a large part of the budget but for small installs for homes and small businesses, I think it would fly.

 

I would think IP a far more attractive option to the small home owner, with a little network! The upper parameters of HD such as latency, frame rates , etc --- are not really going to be very meaningful to a home owner, compared to say the bragging rights of a 12MP surveillance camera.

[dustmop 0]

Hmmm --- theres that issue, which keeps sticking out like a sore thumb now!

 

Works with existing Co-ax????

It will, if the existing coax is Belden 1694A or equivalent.

 

And then there's the more recent large-scale installs that are done primarily in UTP / multi-pair trunks. Hundreds of thousands of feet of cable, suitable for analog, and a good chunk of which will work for IP (under 100 meters back to data closets).

 

So we can have a cable tray PACKED full of expensive high quality coax, or sparsely populated with 25-pair (for analog) or even less populated with fiber (for IP). Even with a budget that might be upwards of $1.5million USD for the migration to IP, there is NO WAY we would even remotely consider HDcctv, as the sheer cost and effort would be... well, you can figure it out.

 

The supposed "benefits" just don't exist, IMHO. (Oh, and 6 lux? really? What planet are they living on?)

[Soundy 1]

From all reports, "Commissioned cost per video channel" should be "Highest"...

 

The ">2MP video" line is just silly - "Planned" is meaningless; "Compressed" for IP is misleading, as the proper answer is, "Yes, a long time ago."

 

"Comprehensive global interface standard" is ridiculously vague - IP cameras have a comprehensive global interface standard: TCP/IP. Ethernet. IEEE 802.x. Or if you're talking about physical interface: RJ-45.

 

At last the thread takes on a meaningful direction - actual views and opinions about the actual claims being made! - to be honest my interest in HDcctv had always been centered around the "upgrade an existing analog install scenario" . The potential for those who had already significantly invested in analog, to get a degree of HD without completely dumping their investment. A kind of transitory condition.

Ah, but the ONLY thing you'd be keeping from an analog installation would be the cabling - your existing DVR isn't going to work with the HD cameras, and you'd need a hybrid DVR to keep some of the analog cameras and replace others with HD cameras. That is, assuming HDcctv was actually viable with most existing cabling installs.

 

And frankly, you can reuse existing analog cabling with IP as well, using Highwire-type devices. These range widely in price - I think actual Veracity Highwires go on the order of $300 per unit (two required per camera), but I've used others that are <$100 for a set, and they work just fine. Naturally, you also retain some of the other benefits of IP this way... such as the ability to run several cameras into a switch and feed all of them over a single existing coax. All of these devices I've seen are capable of 10/100Mbps, meaning you can easily run several MP cameras through them.

 

I had rarely considered it from a perspective of a new install, as I am quite happy with the direction and application of the current HD/MP ip cameras that we are using - within a closed dedicated lan scenario.

Well that's the other thing: HDcctv for a new install means actually pulling new coax... cable that's good for basically a couple of things. Since UTP can be used for network, phone, video, audio, alarm, controls, low voltage, and any number of other things, it only makes sense on a new install to just pull a bundle of UTP, rather than mixing-and-matching in limited-purpose legacy cabling (keeping in mind too, for every coax run, you have to pull something for power too...)

 

Frankly, I love the shift away from coax... using UTP for video and power means I only have to carry one kind of cable in my work van (although I do usually keep ONE box of station-Z on board, mainly for utility purposes... it's small and light anyway), rather than three or four different types.

[rory 0]

(Oh, and 6 lux? really? What planet are they living on?)

0 lux

http://www.ktnc.co.kr/english/viewtopic.php?t=918

 

but only 1lux for a TDN without IR?? wow .. maybe ok for inside a retail store but even that is pushing it these days.

http://www.ktnc.co.kr/english/viewtopic.php?t=904

 

 

analog installers are used to extreme low lux levels .. there is no way this will work for them.

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

Ah, but the ONLY thing you'd be keeping from an analog installation would be the cabling - your existing DVR isn't going to work with the HD cameras, and you'd need a hybrid DVR to keep some of the analog cameras and replace others with HD cameras. That is, assuming HDcctv was actually viable with most existing cabling installs.

 

Seems to me that currently you cannot even keep the cabling ----- (which was about the only potential value proposition i have ever seen in this) I don't get the point in your statement that the existing dvr won't work with analog --- seems kind of obvious - don't know if i created the perception that i thought it would??

 

And frankly, you can reuse existing analog cabling with IP as well, using Highwire-type devices. These range widely in price - I think actual Veracity Highwires go on the order of $300 per unit (two required per camera), but I've used others that are <$100 for a set, and they work just fine. Naturally, you also retain some of the other benefits of IP this way... such as the ability to run several cameras into a switch and feed all of them over a single existing coax. All of these devices I've seen are capable of 10/100Mbps, meaning you can easily run several MP cameras through them.

 

My mind boggles at the idea of sending Ghz signals from multiple sources through a 100mbps switch onto a 1.5Ghz/s tunnel - I can see why the HDcctv alliance touts the value of standards such as SMPTE?

 

 

Frankly, I love the shift away from coax... using UTP for video and power means I only have to carry one kind of cable in my work van (although I do usually keep ONE box of station-Z on board, mainly for utility purposes... it's small and light anyway), rather than three or four different types.

 

I guess that's valid from a convenience perspective. There is a break even point beyond which co-ax remains the best cost wise, and utp above that --- despite the cost of baluns etc having reduced

[rory 0]

My last words on this topic ..

The HDCCTV cameras cant see squat at night with 1 lux specs (without DSS or IR), the cameras are at least 2 times the price of the somewhat equivalent non HDCCTV cameras, need new expensive wiring, need an expensive HD DVR and can only run a few HD cameras at a time. Thanks but no thanks, I cant think of any application I can use them for.

[jeromephone 6]

I think we are moving to an all IP world and the HD on coax is going to be a hard sell. We just finished a job where the access contol is IP the Security cameras are IP the controls for the video presentation system are IP the phones are IP the hvac is IP the TV sets (flat panels are fed by cat 6 from a video server etc the whole building has no coax. I think that analog cameras are just fine and we are still selling more analog than IP but I cannot see going to a third product that has a good chance of becoming an orphan.

[Soundy 1]

Ah, but the ONLY thing you'd be keeping from an analog installation would be the cabling - your existing DVR isn't going to work with the HD cameras, and you'd need a hybrid DVR to keep some of the analog cameras and replace others with HD cameras. That is, assuming HDcctv was actually viable with most existing cabling installs.

 

Seems to me that currently you cannot even keep the cabling ----- (which was about the only potential value proposition i have ever seen in this) I don't get the point in your statement that the existing dvr won't work with analog --- seems kind of obvious - don't know if i created the perception that i thought it would??

Nope, was just reinforcing your statement.

 

And frankly, you can reuse existing analog cabling with IP as well, using Highwire-type devices. These range widely in price - I think actual Veracity Highwires go on the order of $300 per unit (two required per camera), but I've used others that are <$100 for a set, and they work just fine. Naturally, you also retain some of the other benefits of IP this way... such as the ability to run several cameras into a switch and feed all of them over a single existing coax. All of these devices I've seen are capable of 10/100Mbps, meaning you can easily run several MP cameras through them.

 

My mind boggles at the idea of sending Ghz signals from multiple sources through a 100mbps switch onto a 1.5Ghz/s tunnel - I can see why the HDcctv alliance touts the value of standards such as SMPTE?

Not sure what you're talking about here... HDcctv through a switch??

 

The point here is, if you want (or need) to reuse existing coax, you can not only do so with IP, but do so with multiple cameras. The cable+adapters just look to the network like any other cable capable of 10/100.

 

Frankly, I love the shift away from coax... using UTP for video and power means I only have to carry one kind of cable in my work van (although I do usually keep ONE box of station-Z on board, mainly for utility purposes... it's small and light anyway), rather than three or four different types.

 

I guess that's valid from a convenience perspective. There is a break even point beyond which co-ax remains the best cost wise, and utp above that --- despite the cost of baluns etc having reduced

Not really. Around here at least, retail prices for all-copper RG-59 coax, and Cat5e are exactly the same (at our wholesale costs, I think Cat5e is even a little cheaper). With coax, however, you still need to run power (we use 22/4 station-Z, it's cheaper and more versatile overall than 18/2); if cost is a concern, Siamese RG-59+18/2 is a good 50% premium on straight RG-59.

 

When baluns were $30 each, coax was still cost-effective... when I can get them at $8/pair, there's no way.

[Soundy 1]

I think we are moving to an all IP world and the HD on coax is going to be a hard sell. We just finished a job where the access contol is IP the Security cameras are IP the controls for the video presentation system are IP the phones are IP the hvac is IP the TV sets (flat panels are fed by cat 6 from a video server etc the whole building has no coax. I think that analog cameras are just fine and we are still selling more analog than IP but I cannot see going to a third product that has a good chance of becoming an orphan.

Bingo! If they make HDcctv work over UTP, they might have a chance, but it's going to be a hard sell to get anyone to use coax for NEW installs of any large scale, and small-scale sales won't be enough to support the market long-term.

[rory 0]

I think we are moving to an all IP world and the HD on coax is going to be a hard sell. We just finished a job where the access contol is IP the Security cameras are IP the controls for the video presentation system are IP the phones are IP the hvac is IP the TV sets (flat panels are fed by cat 6 from a video server etc the whole building has no coax. I think that analog cameras are just fine and we are still selling more analog than IP but I cannot see going to a third product that has a good chance of becoming an orphan.

do they have an IT guy on staff?

[Campbell 0]

 

A laugh-a-minute!

 

 

I'll see that image and raise you with...

 

 

Transmission medium immune to virus... I thought they wanted to be taken seriously. I should mention the linkedin thread earlier where Todd has made the astounding point that HDcctv has hit "prime time" because installers carry cable testers.

[survtech 0]

Transmission medium immune to virus... I thought they wanted to be taken seriously. I should mention the linkedin thread earlier where Todd has made the astounding point that HDcctv has hit "prime time" because installers carry cable testers.

You read that? I think he also inferred that the testers weren't available yet. "...simple cable checkers will be available even before products based on the next-generation standard come to market."

Todd's other claim, that coax fails due to "electron migration" is another joke. The term is actually "Electromigration" and it is highly unlikely to happen on coaxial cable; especially with copper conductors. The term usually applies to Integrated Circuit conductors where there are significant DC currents and high temperatures on very small wires. Aluminum is 5 times more susceptible to it than copper and ICs have used aluminum conductors "due to its good adherence to substrate, good conductivity, and formation of ohmic contacts with silicon." - Wikipedia re: Electromigration

 

Since coax usually transports AC signals at relatively low currents (1V p-p for video @ 75 ohms = ~13mA AC across a 20-gauge or larger conductor), Electromigration is not possible. With his PhD, he should know better! I think the rats have been nibbling on his brain.

[NotoriousBRK 0]

Wait, so the hdcctv guys haven't even developed a full suite of products and worked out all the issues around the *current* quasi-standards, and now they're trying to talk about hddctv 3.0?

 

When will that be available? 2020?

[Soundy 1]

Wait, so the hdcctv guys haven't even developed a full suite of products and worked out all the issues around the *current* quasi-standards, and now they're trying to talk about hddctv 3.0?

Doesn't even sound like v1.0 is beyond the beta stage, nevermind delivering everything originally promised for it... and now he's talking v3.0? What happened to v2.0? Or is he following Microsoft/Symantec naming schemes now?

 

When will that be available? 2020?

"Real Soon Now".

 

I think Todd's intentionally trying to turn into a parody of himself...

[jeromephone 6]

Rory your point is well taken. In this case they have 2 IT people onsite and a few that float from site to site. They also want a service contract to take care of all these systems as they don't assume that because it is IP they know everything about cameras and access etc. If we can sell and service either analog or IP we are happy and both have there place. HDCCTV can you say beta max?

[rory 0]

That makes life easier, let them deal with the IT side (outside of the main security IT stuff) and then you still do your thing and get paid.

[Campbell 0]

Rory your point is well taken. In this case they have 2 IT people onsite and a few that float from site to site. They also want a service contract to take care of all these systems as they don't assume that because it is IP they know everything about cameras and access etc. If we can sell and service either analog or IP we are happy and both have there place. HDCCTV can you say beta max?

 

No because Beta Max was actually superior to VHS. Where as HDcctv is not superior to IP.

[NotoriousBRK 0]

Rory your point is well taken. In this case they have 2 IT people onsite and a few that float from site to site. They also want a service contract to take care of all these systems as they don't assume that because it is IP they know everything about cameras and access etc. If we can sell and service either analog or IP we are happy and both have there place. HDCCTV can you say beta max?

 

No because Beta Max was actually superior to VHS. Where as HDcctv is not superior to IP.

 

Except that beta max couldn't hold most feature length movies. So while it had an arguably slightly better image at times, it didn't fit the needs of what the public actually wanted overall.

 

Hey, that sounds a lot like hdcctv

[Campbell 0]

Rory your point is well taken. In this case they have 2 IT people onsite and a few that float from site to site. They also want a service contract to take care of all these systems as they don't assume that because it is IP they know everything about cameras and access etc. If we can sell and service either analog or IP we are happy and both have there place. HDCCTV can you say beta max?

 

No because Beta Max was actually superior to VHS. Where as HDcctv is not superior to IP.

 

Except that beta max couldn't hold most feature length movies. So while it had an arguably slightly better image at times, it didn't fit the needs of what the public actually wanted overall.

 

Hey, that sounds a lot like hdcctv

 

Recording time wasn't an issue for PAL It was price for us.

[Tailbone215 0]

I think we are moving to an all IP world and the HD on coax is going to be a hard sell. We just finished a job where the access contol is IP the Security cameras are IP the controls for the video presentation system are IP the phones are IP the hvac is IP the TV sets (flat panels are fed by cat 6 from a video server etc the whole building has no coax. I think that analog cameras are just fine and we are still selling more analog than IP but I cannot see going to a third product that has a good chance of becoming an orphan.

 

Cool stuff! LON and BACnet are the way to go. Even the wireless stuff works great for HVAC control. Which system did you install? Sounds like a lot of data being thrown around the building(s). Any bottlenecks around the IP cams and video streaming servers?