Bunch of questions

[danielsan2222 0]

Rather than spam the forum with a bunch of posts I thought it would better to put everything in 1 post.

 

1. Sanyo - I have been looking at the VCC-HD2500 and the 4600. I saw a post from someone saying that it only does 2.5fps at 4MP. The specs say 30ips at full resolution. Anyone else care to share their experience regarding real world frame rates? Also, how are the Sanyo lenses? If I get the 2500 would I be any better off with say a good Fujinon or Kowa lens over the Sanyo ones?

 

2. Mobotix - I will be using Milestone Essential. How well do the Mobotix cameras work with Milestone? I hear many good things about the IQ not so much the software which in any event I have no intention using.

 

3. Stardot- I was looking at the network SC model, I see they have a newer model that uses H.264. Anyone know if this model SDH500BN will work with Milestone? I see they have the non H.264 model listed but not the H.264 one so I assume not but I was wondering if anyone has tried. Also anyone care to share any hands on experience with these? ipvideomarket seemed to have a good opinion of these cameras.

 

4. Iqinvision - One of my concerns with the IQEyes is that none of them see to use auto iris. How much of an issue is this? From what I have read manual iris seem to work best in constant lighting situations which I assume would hinder D/N operation.

 

5. Axis - I have some old Axis 210s I will be moving to less critical locations and replacing with Axis M114 cameras. Looking at both specs, it seems like the stand is the same size. Anyone know if the stands are interchangeable? It would make mounting new cameras a snap.

 

6. Multistreams - Can someone briefly explain or point me to a link explaining what the benefit of a camera producing multiple streams is?

 

If you are still reading at this point thanks!

[buellwinkle 0]

Mobotix does have excellent image quality, especially the dual lens models like the M12 and D12 that work well in low light. IQinVision, made in China, not sure of the quality. The Axis M1114 is a very good camera, much better than most of the Axis line I've seen (review on my blog site). Stardot has excellent image quality from the cameras I've seen, almost as good as Mobotix and a lot less expensive. Don't know anything about Sanyo.

 

It always comes down to what software you will use so definately verify this first. As for h.264, again, if the software you are using does not use the h.264 compression, then what's the point, so verify that with Milestone. I've been getting ACTi cams for myself because of the value. Certainly not as good as Stardot or Mobotix, better than some Axis, not as good as other Axis cams, heck I replaced my Axis cams with ACTi for image quality, but the Axis M1114 is better, but twice the price.

[danielsan2222 0]

Thanks for the info. I had read your blog posts previously - very good info.

 

From what I can see of the spec sheets, the Stardot H.264 and Netcam SC Box camera are exactly the same except for the ability to use H.264 on the new version. If you know, is this the case? How are the frame rates at top resolution? I like the operating range spec.

 

ACTI - I have thought about ACTI. The IQ seems to get some mixed reviews though as well as a few QC issues(you usually get what you pay for!). I was looking at the 1231 and 5611. I do have a concern about IR safety. Most of my locations I want to use IR are 8' or so ceilings. I assume that would preclude use of IR from what I have read so far.

 

I will contact Milestone directly as you suggest for more info about software/hardware compatibility. The dealer I got the software from does not carry Stardot in fact it seems nearly impossible to find one and ADI who has an office about a mile from mine seems to be a wholesaler only.

 

Mobotix does have excellent image quality, especially the dual lens models like the M12 and D12 that work well in low light. IQinVision, made in China, not sure of the quality. The Axis M1114 is a very good camera, much better than most of the Axis line I've seen (review on my blog site). Stardot has excellent image quality from the cameras I've seen, almost as good as Mobotix and a lot less expensive. Don't know anything about Sanyo.

 

It always comes down to what software you will use so definately verify this first. As for h.264, again, if the software you are using does not use the h.264 compression, then what's the point, so verify that with Milestone. I've been getting ACTi cams for myself because of the value. Certainly not as good as Stardot or Mobotix, better than some Axis, not as good as other Axis cams, heck I replaced my Axis cams with ACTi for image quality, but the Axis M1114 is better, but twice the price.

[thewireguys 3]

When you start to use MP cameras h.246 is very important. I just did a quote for a customer with Sanyo vs Arecont and the storage requirements for the Sanyos in 4MP mode where 5 times what Arecont was with h.264. I'm talking 4TB vs 20TB big difference on the storage cost.

 

What is your FPS requirements? Arecont would also be a good option for higher frame rates if you need it.

 

If you need I Stardot reseller PM me.

[danielsan2222 0]

I thought that the new Sanyos(2500 & 4600) used H.264 or is their implementation that poor? I have been trying to stick with H.264 cameras for the storage/bandwidth considerations although I read that the savings may depend on what is being recorded and there is some loss of IQ compared to MJPEG.

 

The system will have 7 cameras when done with the possibility of 2 more at some point. We currently record for 30 days but none of the current cameras are MP. The network infrastructure(cat 5e) will only carry traffic from the cameras and the server is dedicated for the cameras. I do not have a specific FPS target in mind but this is not for a retail store so a high FPS should not be necessary. I would think that less than 5FPS would be too little but the higher MP count cameras at full res may not do that. The specs are often vague.

 

As to Arecont, I originally was looking at Arecont but to be honest I have read so many bad things about them(poor support, difficult to set up, etc) that I am not really looking at them now. They do have good pricing,were one of the first to implement H264 and I like their dual lens D/N cameras which to me seems to be the best way to go. Most companies do not do use dual lenses.

 

When you start to use MP cameras h.246 is very important. I just did a quote for a customer with Sanyo vs Arecont and the storage requirements for the Sanyos in 4MP mode where 5 times what Arecont was with h.264. I'm talking 4TB vs 20TB big difference on the storage cost.

 

What is your FPS requirements? Arecont would also be a good option for higher frame rates if you need it.

 

If you need I Stardot reseller PM me.

[Soundy 1]

I have been trying to stick with H.264 cameras for the storage/bandwidth considerations although I read that the savings may depend on what is being recorded and there is some loss of IQ compared to MJPEG.

Check this thread: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=21982&hilit=aztech

 

As to Arecont, I originally was looking at Arecont but to be honest I have read so many bad things about them(poor support, difficult to set up, etc) that I am not really looking at them now. They do have good pricing,were one of the first to implement H264 and I like their dual lens D/N cameras which to me seems to be the best way to go. Most companies do not do use dual lenses.

Probably reading some of my posts In fairness, don't discount Arecont outright, they do work quite well once installed (at least the AV3155DNs I've been using do), and ideally once you pull your hair out getting them installed and set up, you shouldn't have to do it again

[thewireguys 3]

Sanyo only does h.264 in HD mode, Mjpeg in MP mode. Only problems with Arecont are from the people that don't know how to set them up properly. They're h.264 is very good and you should keep that in mind. 30days of storage with 7 MP mjpeg cameras will be depending on FPS and resolution will be 4-6TB and Milestone does there storage different so you will need even more.

 

Also milestone only supports mjpeg Stardot cameras

[Soundy 1]

Only problems with Arecont are from the people that don't know how to set them up properly.

Dude. Seriously... three screws, one straight-on, two at angles, all three tucked out-of-the-way so you have to change the camera position to access them all... just to unlock and adjust the backfocus?? is CRAPPY design. Needing THREE different Allen keys to loosen/lock all the camera adjustments... is just CRAPPY design (even if they are kind enough to include the three drivers with the camera).

 

I've been told by one NVR developer that their SDK is a major PITA to work with, too.

[danielsan2222 0]

Well, it wasn't ALL you

 

I did read that their low light performance was not that great because of long shutter times. I know the setup should only have to be done once but is it too much to ask for a camera that isn't a hassle to setup? I will take a second look at them.

 

I have been trying to stick with H.264 cameras for the storage/bandwidth considerations although I read that the savings may depend on what is being recorded and there is some loss of IQ compared to MJPEG.

Check this thread: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=21982&hilit=aztech

 

As to Arecont, I originally was looking at Arecont but to be honest I have read so many bad things about them(poor support, difficult to set up, etc) that I am not really looking at them now. They do have good pricing,were one of the first to implement H264 and I like their dual lens D/N cameras which to me seems to be the best way to go. Most companies do not do use dual lenses.

Probably reading some of my posts In fairness, don't discount Arecont outright, they do work quite well once installed (at least the AV3155DNs I've been using do), and ideally once you pull your hair out getting them installed and set up, you shouldn't have to do it again

[danielsan2222 0]

Wow, I completely missed that. Thanks. What is the point of limiting H.264 to HD mode? Wouldn't it make sense to have it available for the bandwidth hogging 4MP mode? I was estimating about 2TB using Milestone's calculator but I am sure you would have a better handle on a real-world figure.

 

And that sucks about Stardot. I still may use one for outside for the operating temp spec. Now I will definitely take a second look at Arecont.

 

Sanyo only does h.264 in HD mode, Mjpeg in MP mode. Only problems with Arecont are from the people that don't know how to set them up properly. They're h.264 is very good and you should keep that in mind. 30days of storage with 7 MP mjpeg cameras will be depending on FPS and resolution will be 4-6TB and Milestone does there storage different so you will need even more.

 

Also milestone only supports mjpeg Stardot cameras

[thewireguys 3]

I did read that their low light performance was not that great because of long shutter times. I know the setup should only have to be done once but is it too much to ask for a camera that isn't a hassle to setup? I will take a second look at them.

 

There low light is very good for a MP camera if setup correctly. The 3130 that I have for sale is very very good for low light. Arecont does have a very long exposure setting called Moonlight. It was designed for the military specifically the guys the shoot first and ask questions later. Arecont has couple of tricks that they don't print in the manuals so to keep professional installers like my self in business.

 

Arecont (or any camera manufacture) have the perfect camera for every situation. That is why we are partners with different camera manufactures so we can design the best system for your needs.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Guest

[Soundy 1]

Well, it wasn't ALL you

 

I did read that their low light performance was not that great because of long shutter times. I know the setup should only have to be done once but is it too much to ask for a camera that isn't a hassle to setup? I will take a second look at them.

I found that the ability to manually set the minimum shutter speed was very useful to balance this out... interestingly, I also installed some Arecont box cams (don't recall the model) on the site that gave me a wider range to adjust the shutter speed - the 3155s allowed you to enter up to 10ms; the others up to 80ms, and I found 40ms to be about right for my needs. I emailed Arecont to ask about firmware update to address this; they simply sent me a little command line snippet to add to the browser (so like, http://camera.ip/shutter=40... not that exactly, but you get the idea). That was nice, because it made it a lot quicker to update all the cameras without needing to go through their config pages (which, incidentally, suck as well).

[Soundy 1]

Wow, I completely missed that. Thanks. What is the point of limiting H.264 to HD mode?

My guess would be technical reasons... processing power required to compress H.264 at higher resolutions?

[thewireguys 3]

Wow, I completely missed that. Thanks. What is the point of limiting H.264 to HD mode? Wouldn't it make sense to have it available for the bandwidth hogging 4MP mode? I was estimating about 2TB using Milestone's calculator but I am sure you would have a better handle on a real-world figure.

 

And that sucks about Stardot. I still may use one for outside for the operating temp spec. Now I will definitely take a second look at Arecont.

 

Sanyo only does h.264 in HD mode, Mjpeg in MP mode. Only problems with Arecont are from the people that don't know how to set them up properly. They're h.264 is very good and you should keep that in mind. 30days of storage with 7 MP mjpeg cameras will be depending on FPS and resolution will be 4-6TB and Milestone does there storage different so you will need even more.

 

Also milestone only supports mjpeg Stardot cameras

 

Well it comes down to processing power in the camera. Arecont is a security camera not a web camera it doesn't have all the extra stuff that Sanyo has. Do you want email pics from your camera or have 10MP with h.264. Arecont gives you more resolution with h.264.

 

Using Exacqs Cal

 

Seven 5MP cameras at 5fps and 30% motion will be 2.2TB for 30Days. Same setting Mjpeg 11TB

[danielsan2222 0]

@Soundy - I assume you mean in the camera. You are probably correct. It could be done but that would add to the cost of the camera.

 

@Wireguys - I am not really looking to access this remotely although it would be nice to have that option if we choose to use that at some point. It is for deterrence, identification after the fact and non-continuous monitoring during the day. I am not trying to necessarily trying to get the highest MP spec. I know that more MP does not always equal better IQ and the more MP you cram in the smaller the pixel pitch creating more noise.

 

11 TB is a little insane. Luckily, I am not looking at all 5MP cameras. Only 2 need that kind of resolution. I have 2 vga cameras. The other 2 can be 1MP or so and the other one maybe 2 or so.

 

 

Well it comes down to processing power in the camera. Arecont is a security camera not a web camera it doesn't have all the extra stuff that Sanyo has. Do you want email pics from your camera or have 10MP with h.264. Arecont gives you more resolution with h.264.

 

Using Exacqs Cal

 

Seven 5MP cameras at 5fps and 30% motion will be 2.2TB for 30Days. Same setting Mjpeg 11TB

[thewireguys 3]

@Soundy - I assume you mean in the camera. You are probably correct. It could be done but that would add to the cost of the camera.

 

@Wireguys - I am not really looking to access this remotely although it would be nice to have that option if we choose to use that at some point. It is for deterrence, identification after the fact and non-continuous monitoring during the day. I am not trying to necessarily trying to get the highest MP spec. I know that more MP does not always equal better IQ and the more MP you cram in the smaller the pixel pitch creating more noise.

 

11 TB is a little insane. Luckily, I am not looking at all 5MP cameras. Only 2 need that kind of resolution. I have 2 vga cameras. The other 2 can be 1MP or so and the other one maybe 2 or so.

 

 

I think you miss understood what I was sayings. I was referring to the camera features Axis, IQI ,Sanyo..... have all types of extra features that eat up processing power. Arecont doesn't have them, they use all of the CPU resources for high res and h.264

[danielsan2222 0]

In case anyone is interested, I talked to Stardot and support in Milestone for the new H.264 cameras is being worked on and hopefully will be available in 2 months or so. Also, the generic drivers in the most recent Milestone version supposedly should provide basic functionality(i.e. view and record). Since I obviously do not have a camera in hand I have not tested this myself.