alpine0000 0 Posted August 25, 2010 To those of you who have used either of these cameras: So I'm about to buy my first IP camera These are the two I'm looking at right now. They seem to be about the same price. I am most interested in night-time quality, as it will be used to monitor my driveway (I have some light outside, but not that much). Also, should be able to handle bright sunlight in the morning. Basically, we have 1/4” Progressive scan RGB CMOS with the AXIS and a 1/3 inch interline transfer CCD with the Panasonic. Help me out with me decision here. Let's discuss this Pro's/Con's of each, regarding anything you can think of. I have never seen either one. I will be building a Dell server and using exacqVision VMS. I will be using h.264, not MPEG. Thanks! Images from each are a nice bonus, as well as your overall experience with the cam! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielsan2222 0 Posted August 25, 2010 Have you looked at Mobotix? A little more expensive but by the time you add in the cost of a new server and exacq it would be cheaper and the image quality should be better. To those of you who have used either of these cameras: So I'm about to buy my first IP camera These are the two I'm looking at right now. They seem to be about the same price. I am most interested in night-time quality, as it will be used to monitor my driveway (I have some light outside, but not that much). Also, should be able to handle bright sunlight in the morning. Basically, we have 1/4” Progressive scan RGB CMOS with the AXIS and a 1/3 inch interline transfer CCD with the Panasonic. Help me out with me decision here. Let's discuss this Pro's/Con's of each, regarding anything you can think of. I have never seen either one. I will be building a Dell server and using exacqVision VMS. I will be using h.264, not MPEG. Thanks! Images from each are a nice bonus, as well as your overall experience with the cam! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alpine0000 0 Posted August 25, 2010 Have you looked at Mobotix? A little more expensive but by the time you add in the cost of a new server and exacq it would be cheaper and the image quality should be better. Yes, I have taken a look at them many times. However, this is not going to be a 1 camera setup. I want to centrally manage about 6-7 cameras, so I would like to set up a server with exacq on it. I am a big fan of their app for the iphone, too, which I will also use. So in this case, mobotix cameras may be more expensive for me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cglaeser 0 Posted August 25, 2010 The 502 has auto back focus, which is a welcome feature. Low light performance is not exceptional, but my one copy has been quite reliable, as you might expect in this price range. Best, Christopher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
buellwinkle 0 Posted August 25, 2010 Just a curiosity, what made you narrow it down to those 2 cameras? If price is a concern, why not go with ACTi acm-7411, has 3.3-12mm varifocal lens, 1.3MP, free NVR software and about half the price of the Axis. I know Axis has more name brand awareness, but I personally replaced Axis with ACTi because of image quality and does much better in dim situations. There are some good Axis cameras, but they are not consistant. But I agree with Danielsan, Mobotix is the camera of choice. Also consider that one D12 may replace a few Axis Q3344 because it can be configured with two 3MP lenses, each can be pointed in different directions for a total of 6MP or about the same pixels in one camera that a few Axis Q3344 will have. Also, not having a PC to record is a huge plus, afterall, you weren't going to use a cheap home PC for this, right? I don't think it will hold up to 24/7 operation with no power save mode, hard drive going constantly. With h.264, I would start of with an i7 computer, you'll need the processing power. Then you have the electric consumption costs, heat dissapation, noise, single point of failure. There's a lot to be said on not having to have a PC to record. I look at this in more of a black and white, either I want the best camera for the job which is Mobotix, or I want the best value which is ACTi. Panny and Axis are sort of in the middle for me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alpine0000 0 Posted August 26, 2010 First off, let me say thank you for everybody who chimed in Just a curiosity, what made you narrow it down to those 2 cameras? I was doing research, and both of these companies seem to make decent stuff, and they both have WDR, which my current Panasonic domes have, and I like (since they are outdoors). If price is a concern, why not go with ACTi acm-7411, has 3.3-12mm varifocal lens, 1.3MP, free NVR software and about half the price of the Axis. Price isnt TOO BIG of a concern, although its always nice to spend less if you don't have to sacrifice too much quality. I will take a look at the specs on that camera. Thank you for the suggestion Does it have WDR? But I agree with Danielsan, Mobotix is the camera of choice. I also agree that they are very impressive Also consider that one D12 may replace a few Axis Q3344 because it can be configured with two 3MP lenses, each can be pointed in different directions for a total of 6MP or about the same pixels in one camera that a few Axis Q3344 will have. Not in my case with my layout. On the inside of my house, I don't have more than 1 camera in any room. And on the exterior of my house, the cameras are not covering locations near each other either. So my replacements will be 1-for-1, regardless of the camera I use. But you are correct, in some applications it can replace two cameras Also, not having a PC to record is a huge plus, afterall, you weren't going to use a cheap home PC for this, right? I don't think it will hold up to 24/7 operation with no power save mode, hard drive going constantly. With h.264, I would start of with an i7 computer, you'll need the processing power. Then you have the electric consumption costs, heat dissapation, noise, single point of failure. There's a lot to be said on not having to have a PC to record. I am not going to be using a home PC. It is a dell poweredge server. Here are the specs: -Intel Xeon X3430 Quad-Core 2.4ghz, 8M Cache, Turbo -8GB 1333MHz UDIMM RAM -Western Digital RE4 Enterprise SATA 1.5TB HDD -Gigabit Network Adapter The server is like $700-800. Its really not that expensive. Not to mention, I am in the IT field and have connections. And I know all about server failures, trust me They are pretty uncommon in the grand scheme of things. heat dissapation and noise are also not a concern for me. Like I said, I want to be able to centrally manage about 7 cameras, and be able to login using either the Client Software, Web App for iphone, or using a Web Browser, and have all my cameras in one place. I'm not saying Mobotix cameras arent amazing, I'm just saying that there are other options that I think are more appealing for me (and just so happen to be cheaper). Maybe I am wrong in my thinking, though. I will go back and research Mobotix again. But it seems like Mobotix's key selling point is the movement away from "centralized" systems, when, in fact, having a centralized system is one of the main things I DO want! I look at this in more of a black and white, either I want the best camera for the job which is Mobotix, or I want the best value which is ACTi. Panny and Axis are sort of in the middle for me. Nothing wrong with that outlook, but I am the kind of shopper who also believes there are good options in the middle, too For me, it doesn't have to be the top-of-the-line or the best value. I can compromise somewhere in the middle. Thanks again for your suggestions! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielsan2222 0 Posted August 26, 2010 I have another possibility that you may or may not have looked at - Stardot. I have been strongly considering this as a possibility. It is does not have the dual lens/imager setup so I would think Mobotix would still come up on top in IQ in low light. The newest model supports H.264 and available up to 5MP. Milestone does not support the H264 version quite yet which has been a stumbling block for me but I believe that Exacq supports it. It has an excellent operating temp range so it should not require a heater/blower just a housing to keep the rain/snow off. The camera is cheaper than Mobotix but if you dont use the included lens and add a housing there is not much price difference. Have you looked at Mobotix? A little more expensive but by the time you add in the cost of a new server and exacq it would be cheaper and the image quality should be better. Yes, I have taken a look at them many times. However, this is not going to be a 1 camera setup. I want to centrally manage about 6-7 cameras, so I would like to set up a server with exacq on it. I am a big fan of their app for the iphone, too, which I will also use. So in this case, mobotix cameras may be more expensive for me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alpine0000 0 Posted August 26, 2010 I have another possibility that you may or may not have looked at - Stardot. I just checked out their website, and I only see 3 box cameras listed. Do they *really* only make those 3, or am I missing something? Also, I tried to think of the important things that I am looking for in a camera for this application, and I came up with these requirements for my 3 outdoor cameras (the indoor cameras will be a whole different story): --Dome (I want them to be simple 'drop-in' replacements for my current camera's, as well as look asthetically pleasing) --IP --Megapixel (or at least HD) --Very good low-light image (after all, this is not a business location, its my home. I dont have anything to monitor during the day really, like businesses do with customers coming in and out. My main concern is capturing vandelism/theft at night time) --h.264 --WDR is a huge plus --Day/Night (as I may add IR illuminators in weak spots later) --Varifocal Just for funsies I figured I'd post a current screenshot of 1 of my 3 outdoor analog cameras that will eventually be replaced with an IP cam (this is a Panasonic 484 dome): And here's a screenshot from this past winter. It shows my other 2 outdoor camera's: And a better view of the front door camera: A shot of how the camera's are installed: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
buellwinkle 0 Posted August 26, 2010 (edited) Stardot is pretty good, seen them at CES last January, very clear sharp image and up to 5MP. But their short fall is they only make a small set of models. The ACTI TCM-7411s are h.264 and WDR. Indoors you can use the smaller dome TCM-3511. Same sensor, same wdr, same h.264, same day/night filter, BUT it has IR illuminators built in, very cool for indoors where you don't want to have visible light and external illuminators. The ACM equivalents are not h.264 and not wdr, but less expensive. ACTi is a well know commercial grade camera and most NVR software supports them. The only limitation with ACTi is 1.3MP and some people want more, but at home, 1.3MP works really well for me. I'm not a dome fan, but outdoors, I like the ACTi bullet cams that have the IR illuminators built in. Theya re the TCM-1231 and ACM-1231 depending on if you want WDR and h.264. Good to see you know to buy a server grade box and Dell's are a good value. I see that Exacq started supporting Ubuntu 10.04, suprising because when I last checked a month ago, they only supported 8.04 which is pretty old. Why Linux, why not Snow Leopard Server Edition or dare I say, Windows to run Exacq? Just curious because we sell software that runs on a variety of Linux distributions, Solaris, Windows and there's always this strong passion for the OS people chose, even if they are wrong, haha! Edited August 26, 2010 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielsan2222 0 Posted August 26, 2010 In your situation, an all Mobotix solution does not make sense. I think the narrow product range is one of the major failings of Mobotix. However, there is another possibility. You could go with Milestone which does support Mobotix cameras so even though you give up the decentralized aspect you do get the excellent IQ. You would have to use at least the Professional version to get the mobile capability that you are looking for. Sounds like you have done a good bit of research already so I assume you have looked at Milestone already but if you haven't check them out. On your server, you may find that 1.5TB is insufficient depending on what kind of cameras you plan on using. Be sure to use the storage calculator on Exacq's website. As to HDD reliability, I ran a Milestone server for a few years on a consumer grade WD hard drives without problem although they dont seem to make them like they used to. Stardot - no they have more than 3 http://www.stardot.com/products/netcam-sc-vandal-resistant-dome Unfortunately, it appears the dome version does not come in a H.264 version yet. The stardot is supposed to have a pretty good low light image. I dont know about WDR. Varifocal should not be an issue as most(with the exception of Mobotix) high end cameras have changeable lenses and support day/night but of course the quality of the night image is usually the big question. Not in my case with my layout. On the inside of my house, I don't have more than 1 camera in any room. And on the exterior of my house, the cameras are not covering locations near each other either. So my replacements will be 1-for-1, regardless of the camera I use. But you are correct, in some a. I am not going to be using a home PC. It is a dell poweredge server. Here are the specs: -Intel Xeon X3430 Quad-Core 2.4ghz, 8M Cache, Turbo -8GB 1333MHz UDIMM RAM -Western Digital RE4 Enterprise SATA 1.5TB HDD -Gigabit Network Adapter The server is like $700-800. Its really not that expensive. Not to mention, I am in the IT field and have connections. And I know all about server failures, trust me They are pretty uncommon in the grand scheme of things. heat dissapation and noise are also not a concern for me. Like I said, I want to be able to centrally manage about 7 cameras, and be able to login using either the Client Software, Web App for iphone, or using a Web Browser, and have all my cameras in one place. I'm not saying Mobotix cameras arent amazing, I'm just saying that there are other options that I think are more appealing for me (and just so happen to be cheaper). Maybe I am wrong in my thinking, though. I will go back and research Mobotix again. But it seems like Mobotix's key selling point is the movement away from "centralized" systems, when, in fact, having a centralized system is one of the main things I DO want! . Thanks again for your suggestions! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewireguys 3 Posted August 26, 2010 The best low light megapixel cameras are the M12 and the Arecont 3130/3135. You will need to add IR for good low light results. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alpine0000 0 Posted August 26, 2010 Indoors you can use the smaller dome TCM-3511. Same sensor, same wdr, same h.264, same day/night filter, BUT it has IR illuminators built in, very cool for indoors where you don't want to have visible light and external illuminators. So funny you mentioned that. I decided on that camera for the inside of my house this afternoon and emailed TheWireGuys about pricing on it! Great minds think alike. Haha. Have you seen a screenshot from this camera? How about a night-time screenshot using the IR? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewireguys 3 Posted August 26, 2010 Stardot is pretty good, seen them at CES last January, very clear sharp image and up to 5MP. But their short fall is they only make a small set of models. The ACTI TCM-7411s are h.264 and WDR. Indoors you can use the smaller dome TCM-3511. Same sensor, same wdr, same h.264, same day/night filter, BUT it has IR illuminators built in, very cool for indoors where you don't want to have visible light and external illuminators. The ACM equivalents are not h.264 and not wdr, but less expensive. ACTi is a well know commercial grade camera and most NVR software supports them. The only limitation with ACTi is 1.3MP and some people want more, but at home, 1.3MP works really well for me. I'm not a dome fan, but outdoors, I like the ACTi bullet cams that have the IR illuminators built in. Theya re the TCM-1231 and ACM-1231 depending on if you want WDR and h.264. Good to see you know to buy a server grade box and Dell's are a good value. I see that Exacq started supporting Ubuntu 10.04, suprising because when I last checked a month ago, they only supported 8.04 which is pretty old. Why Linux, why not Snow Leopard Server Edition or dare I say, Windows to run Exacq? Just curious because we sell software that runs on a variety of Linux distributions, Solaris, Windows and there's always this strong passion for the OS people chose, even if they are wrong, haha! Exacq runs on Linux Windows and Mac. They run on other versions of Linux but Exacq will only support LTS versions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
buellwinkle 0 Posted August 26, 2010 Personally, never had good sucess with Ubuntu, wasn't too stable for me, I have to do apt-gets to get every little feature I need (no wonder it fits on a CD instead of CentOS, RHEL or SUSE on 2 DVDs). For example, today I wanted to SSH to it, no SSH, WTF, I had to install it seperately. If they want to support a free OS, they really should support something more serious like CentOS or even Debian which Ubuntu is based on. My guess is if they only support Ubuntu, it probably comes as a Debian package install. Back to the real subject, I don't have the 3511 camera, but have considered it. I do have other cameras with that very same sensor and it does quite well, much better than my Axis in indoor lighting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alpine0000 0 Posted August 26, 2010 Sounds like you have done a good bit of research already so I assume you have looked at Milestone already but if you haven't check them out. I have heard great things about them, and the software looks wonderful! However, the thing that is leaning me more towards exacq is the flexibility. For example, the fact that you can use ANY browser, and the apps for iphone/android, are the two main things that have me sold. Looking at milestones website, I cannot tell if they can do those things or not. On your server, you may find that 1.5TB is insufficient depending on what kind of cameras you plan on using. Yea, I'm going to start out with 1.5TB, and then, if needed, I will add another 1.5TB. I only really want to store about 2 weeks of video, and most of my cameras are motion only, and between 8-12FPS. So I'm gonna just see what happens. Although, with these new IP cams with higher resolutions, I may very well need more drive space, and am prepared to add as needed! Varifocal should not be an issue as most(with the exception of Mobotix) high end cameras have changeable lenses Usually they do, but with my (very limited) experience a lot of dome cameras either don't have a replaceable lens, or, if they do, you are very limited to the lens you can use due to the tight space between the lens and the dome cover. So I'd like to just get something that comes with a decent quality, varifocal lens right out of the box Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielsan2222 0 Posted August 27, 2010 Dont know as it is not a feature I need but you could try the 30 day free trial. I have heard great things about them, and the software looks wonderful! However, the thing that is leaning me more towards exacq is the flexibility. For example, the fact that you can use ANY browser, and the apps for iphone/android, are the two main things that have me sold. Looking at milestones website, I cannot tell if they can do those things or not. Good point. I forgot you were looking at domes. Varifocal should not be an issue as most(with the exception of Mobotix) high end cameras have changeable lenses Usually they do, but with my (very limited) experience a lot of dome cameras either don't have a replaceable lens, or, if they do, you are very limited to the lens you can use due to the tight space between the lens and the dome cover. So I'd like to just get something that comes with a decent quality, varifocal lens right out of the box Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewireguys 3 Posted August 27, 2010 Exacq is easier to install, upgrade, configure and use then Milestone. Milestone you have to use IE, if you want the iphone app its $999 where the Exacq app (Exacq works on Blackberry, Android, Iphone/Ipad without it) is $50. Don't get me wrong I think Milestone is a great product but it isn't the most user friendly system and is geared for the security professional . Also one major plus for Exacq that people don't no much about it. When you export video it is exported into its own .exe file so you don't need to mess with players or codecs when you need to give evidence. Just load the file on a jump drive or DVD, take it to a different machine and click on the file that's it, very simple. Milestone has at least 5 services running on the server where Exacq only has one for the server and one for the web client. Also Milestones licenses are registered to the mac address of the cameras so if you want to replace a camera you have to log into there website or call your dealer to simply swap cameras. Exacq doesn't care what cameras are hooked up to the server they only care how many. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielsan2222 0 Posted August 27, 2010 Well I just did my installation this week and I thought it was pretty easy. However, I will agree that the client leaves something to be desired. I was using an old Professional version before and I found it very simple to use. The new version not nearly so much. I found their pricing to be pretty steep as well and if it was not for the Essential product I would have used something else. $999 for an iphone app is a good example of overcharging. Small wonder they felt compelled to come out with the Essential and now this free version. Exacq is easier to install, upgrade, configure and use then Milestone. Milestone you have to use IE, if you want the iphone app its $999 where the Exacq app (Exacq works on Blackberry, Android, Iphone/Ipad without it) is $50. Don't get me wrong I think Milestone is a great product but it isn't the most user friendly system and is geared for the security professional . Also one major plus for Exacq that people don't no much about it. When you export video it is exported into its own .exe file so you don't need to mess with players or codecs when you need to give evidence. Just load the file on a jump drive or DVD, take it to a different machine and click on the file that's it, very simple. Milestone has at least 5 services running on the server where Exacq only has one for the server and one for the web client. Also Milestones licenses are registered to the mac address of the cameras so if you want to replace a camera you have to log into there website or call your dealer to simply swap cameras. Exacq doesn't care what cameras are hooked up to the server they only care how many. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alpine0000 0 Posted August 27, 2010 When you export video it is exported into its own .exe file... Is that a typo? It really exports video to a .exe (executable) file? I'd think it would create some sort of file with a video extension, like .mpg or .mp4 or something... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cglaeser 0 Posted August 27, 2010 Is that a typo? It really exports video to a .exe (executable) file? I'd think it would create some sort of file with a video extension, like .mpg or .mp4 or something... It's not a typo. The benefit of the .exe file is it will run on the ubiquitous Windows PC with no worries if the proper codec is installed. Best, Christopher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cglaeser 0 Posted August 27, 2010 Interesting... Oh, and one more benefit. The .exe program is like an exacq client, which means it will play back multiple streams simultaneously. For example, if a burglar moves from one camera to another, all the selected streams can be written to the .exe file. When running the .exe file, you can play back one monitor, switch monitors, or watch all monitors simultaneously, just like the exacq client. Very slick. Best, Christopher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites