Converting a DVRL into an NVR - help anyone?

[habarraclough 0]

I have a big rack-mount 4-channel DVR (Linux 2.6 MPEG4) that I bought for a new customer location, but before it was installed they went out of business and now I'm stuck with it. It's a beast - over 10kg - but a good piece of equipment. Most of my customers want a compact H.264 DVR, so this expensive ($900 my cost) unit gathers dust in inventory.

Another customer wants a rack-mount 16-channel NVR.

I don't know much about NVRs because there are very few instances where IP cameras and NVRs make sense, but I figure there must be some way to convert my DVRL into an NVR. I know I'll need NVR software, and I'll probably have to increase the size of the HDD - I might even have to change the OS. What else do I need to worry about?

Does anyone out there know enough to advise me? All help will be gratefully appreciated.

Howard. http://www.TheShepherdsEyes.com - Video Surveillance Systems for Small Businesses

[Soundy 1]

If it's an actual PC, then it's easy to "convert" to an NVR - all you need is the right software (and hardware upgrades as appropriate). Look at something like Exacq, which will run on Linux.

[habarraclough 0]

Thanks.

Yes, it's effectively a PC with video capture cards. I'll look at Exacq. What about HDD size? - I know that NVRs require more storage than DVRs.

My concern is that becaue I have no idea what I'm doing I'll end up "destroying" a perfectly good DVRL and not being able to make the NVR work, therefore losing a ton of money.

[vin2install 0]

What os was it running?

[habarraclough 0]

Here's the full spec (from an ad I placed on eBay to sell it) - OS is Linux 2.6

This DVR SERVER (not to be confused with typical home/small business DVRs) is NEW and unused and in original packaging. It has been opened and tested but never placed in service. Originally planned for a new branch of a national store chain which never got built, it is now excess to our requirements.

Unit weight = 10.44 Kilos (23lbs) – Shipping weight is 12.2 Kilos (27lbs)

List price is $1,799 – never discounted below $1,299 – we will sell for $1,099.

Features:

• IDE Interface Linux Embedded on DOM

• 8 Channel (expandable to 16)

• Commercial grade network Linux Data Rack Mount DVR (can be tabletop)

• User access is controlled by the Administrator, with multiple user and security levels

• May be completely controlled/operated over the network without local involvement

• Complete remote-site monitoring, playback, video clip export, and set-up functions through Windows IE browser – no extra software is necessary

• True real-time 240fps recording/playback (30fps/camera)

• 300Gb HDD (may be increased/replaced)

• Built-in CD/RW Drive

• USB Ports for Memory Card, Flash Drive, External HDD, etc.

• Local control is by Mouse and Keyboard

• Cabinet is secure heavy gauge steel with a key-locking front panel

• Video Input = D-Type BNC Adaptor – 2 Cards (room for 2 more)

• Video resolution = 720x480

• Hue, Saturation, Brightness, Contrast are adjustable by camera

• Flexible recording control per camera:- Continuous, Scheduled, Motion Detection, Digital Input, Pre-Alarm, Cyclic Overwrite

• Compression = MPEG4 S/W Codec

• Separate MPEG-4 encoder for fast network remote surveillance

• Quick video search by Date, Time, Camera, Events, Tag or Motion

• Alarm event notification on screen, by Email, Telephone, Mobile Phone, Fax, and Digital Relay Output

• Built-In Hardware Watchdog – Auto reboot resumes record mode after power fail/restore

• Self-diagnostic functions for video loss, system abnormal, and HDD Crash

• PTZ Control for Pelco-D, Pelco-P, Lilin, VIDO, SAE, Dynacolor, Kalatel, Nicecam and Panasonic

[Soundy 1]

The only thing you could really do is muck up the DVR software or OS, in which case you just reinstall them both clean - remember that an NVR really does nothing more than accepting data from a network stream (that in this case just happens to be video data), and writing it to disk in some sort of manageable and searchable form.

 

Safest way to cover yourself is to back up the system partition to an image with something like Paragon or Acronis... then if things go south (or if you just want to restore it to original condition for resale), you just restore the image, and you're done.

 

Now ideally, you could look for an NVR software that supports the capture hardware you already have, thus making a nice hybrid box... otherwise, you can either pull the capture card out to make it a pure NVR, or you MAY be able to run the DVR software and separate NVR server simultaneously.

 

You could also see if there's an upgrade/add-on available for the existing DVR software to add NVR capability.

[habarraclough 0]

Thanks Matt - the idea of a hybrid box sounds intriguing. Keeping 8-channel analog and adding another 8 or more of IP (like a GE SymSafe "+2" box on steroids) would be really cool, - I wish I knew more techie stuff, and also had more time to mess with it. So far I'm totally unimpressed and unconvinced about the whole IP/NVR solution to video surveillance - unless it's a huge and widely dispersed client with 50+ cameras in a half-dozen locations like a school system or something, I just don't see the benefits vs the downsides of initial cost, increased storage needs, bandwidth issues and the PoE inadequacies for PTZ or IR cameras. Maybe I'll just try to find the DVRL a home as-is - sell it as part of a system for a convenience store where I can make up the cost differential between it and a cheaper H.264 DVR by using cheaper cameras with easier less labor-intensive cable pulls.

Thanks again.

[Soundy 1]

Actually, initial cost of an NVR is (or SHOULD) usually be less, because there's no analog/digital capture hardware required - just software that can snag and record the video streams from the network. Many manufacturers of storage arrays (QNAP, Synology, and Enhance are three I'm familiar with) also have systems that can do this directly in the array, eliminating the need for a separate PC - take a look at www.qnapsecurity.com for some examples. I even repurposed an old laptop with a broken lid (cracked, so it won't open or close easily, making it of limited usefulness as a portable) to work as a test NVR - just needed the software!

 

Cameras will TYPICALLY cost more (although there are some decent low-budget megapixel cams out there), but you also get higher resolution, and you can pay a mint for a high-quality analog camera as well.

 

Storage cost really isn't that much of an issue either: my usual retailer currently has 1TB drives on sale for $60; 1.5TB for $90. I've seen 2TB going for <$100 on sale as well.

 

Bandwidth is entirely relative to the number of cameras - I've had two 1.3MP cameras running smoothly on a 10Mbit connection. UNTIL you get into bigger systems, bandwidth really isn't that much, especially if the cameras use H.264 and have built-in motion detection to control their transmission. As far as power, almost all network cameras support external 12VDC and/or 24VAC power; PoE is just a convenience, not a requirement.

 

Cabling-wise, it's no more complex or painful to pull Cat5e rather than coax. Cost is the same for both these days, Cat5e actually tends to be smaller and more flexible, and if you do go PoE, there's also the benefit of not needing to pull power as well. In more and more cases these days, we're also using Cat5e for analog video - you can run video, power and control (for PTZ)... or two video and power... or four video... over a single Cat5e run... and then you have that in place for future upgrade to IP, should the need ever arise.

 

Not to sound like an IP/megapixel/NVR salesman, mind you... just clarifying some of the facts for you, since there's a common misconception that IP video must ALWAYS be complicated and expensive.

[habarraclough 0]

I hear you, but my understanding is like this: Compare a 16-camera system, IP and Analog. A simple progressive scan PoE IP 1mp dome camera from my Asian manufacturer runs about $175, but I can get a similar analog 520tvl dome (with IR capability thrown in) for less than $40 - so the cost difference for cameras alone is about $2,200. Then, a good H.264 16-camera DVR with TWO 1Tb drives costs me about $300 - less than just the software costs I've seen for an NVR, let alone the hardware. As far as storage, I think that 16 x 1.0mp cameras streaming at 30fps will require just over 8Tb of storage for 1 week (?), while my 2x1Tb drives on the DVR will store the same stream for over 2 MONTHS. Bandwidth for the IP system, if I understand it right, will require over 83mbps, plus another 83mbps to stream it out to a client application - that will crash most networks I've seen in typical small businesses. If you network my DVR you get the same benefits without the heartache. And as to PoE:- I compare CAT5 with 2 x 12v10a 9-port power supplies and baluns (my balun + power supply cost is about $350) to CAT5 and a switch with PoE capability - a Cisco 24-port PoE switch costs about $800 and only puts out 7.5watts per port. I'm told that each IP camera requires about 10-12 watts, (not including power for the IRs if they have them) so what do you do for the rest of the power? My 1.25amps per camera from the 2 power supplies is plenty for even the most long-range (300+ft) IR camera.

Anyway it's an academic discussion I know, but I just don't see where anyone can come even close to a system-to-system equipment cost comparison (from an installer's cost point of view) - I just can't get excited about IP systems. If there were significant benefits for the average user I could try and make a case, but I don't see the benefits let alone being able to sell them. And yes, I often use CAT5e or CAT6 with baluns for long camera runs in an analog system - more delicate to pull, but fewer power drop and signal noise issues.

[thewireguys 3]

The advantage is image quality and versatility. Do you want to see whats going on or do you want to identify the object or person in the video.

 

does your customer want this (A)

 

or this: (B)

 

After showing customers both images I have yet to have one say they want (A)

[Soundy 1]

I hear you, but my understanding is like this: Compare a 16-camera system, IP and Analog. A simple progressive scan PoE IP 1mp dome camera from my Asian manufacturer runs about $175, but I can get a similar analog 520tvl dome (with IR capability thrown in) for less than $40 - so the cost difference for cameras alone is about $2,200.

You're comparing the proverbial apples and oranges. Okay, maybe more like... a small cantaloupe with a giant vodka-soaked watermelon

 

To be blunt, a $40 IR camera is crap. The picture is crap, the night performance is crap, the longevity will probably be crap. A *quality* analog camera - for the sake of argument, let's say a CNB VCM-24VF vandal-resistant day/night dome, which frankly will give you better night vision than that $40 camera in all but complete darkness, and which most here will agree is an outstanding value on a quality-for-price basis, will start at about $175 from online/fleaBay vendors... up to twice that retail.

 

Then, a good H.264 16-camera DVR with TWO 1Tb drives costs me about $300

Same as with the camera: a $300 DVR where half the total price is the drives alone, is crap. Simple as that. Don't take my word for that, either - any of the professionals here will agree (the only ones that won't are the Asian manufacturers who are here trying to sell their $300 junk DVRs).

 

less than just the software costs I've seen for an NVR, let alone the hardware.

There's a WIDE range of NVR software out there, some of it free. Many cameras come with their own bundled NVR software as well, which while it may only work with their own branded cameras, IS still free. Hardware requirements are nothing special - some here have run multi-channel Exacq NVRs with multi-megapixel cameras on Atom-processor systems.

 

Really, your comparisons here just aren't valid: you're comparing the cheapest of the cheap analog junk with mid-grade IP systems and excessive hardware expectations.

 

As far as storage, I think that 16 x 1.0mp cameras streaming at 30fps will require just over 8Tb of storage for 1 week (?),

That depends on the codec used, as well as numerous other factors... H.264 will use anywhere from 1/4 to 1/20th the space of MJPEG or MPEG-4. Some DVRs/NVRs also have proprietary codecs that recompress video to a fraction of the space with little or no loss of quality.

 

while my 2x1Tb drives on the DVR will store the same stream for over 2 MONTHS.

At a fraction of the resolution, sure. Apples and oranges, again.

 

And again, your system design is unrealistic. Situations that call for 24/7, 30fps, continuous recording are rare in the extreme. 5-7fps is more than sufficient in most cases, and almost every situation will be using motion-activated recording - after all, there's no point in recording a scene where nothing is happening. While these thinkings apply to both analog and megapixel, the differences become a lot less extreme when REAL needs are factored in.

 

BTW, on a similar note, keep in mind that IP is not the same thing as megapixel. There are lower-resolution IP cameras (VGA, or 640x480, is common).

 

Bandwidth for the IP system, if I understand it right, will require over 83mbps, plus another 83mbps to stream it out to a client application - that will crash most networks I've seen in typical small businesses.

You do not understand it right. Again, REAL bandwidth depends on a lot of factors, BEGINNING with the actual camera resolution (anywhere from VGA to 16MP). Then there's the codec used, the compression-vs.-quality level used, the framerate...

 

The scene itself has a huge effect on the bandwidth: the less complex, the less bandwidth needed. Cameras with built-in motion detection can be set to only transmit video when that detection is triggered, and even without that, a static scene will also use far less bandwidth than one filled with dynamic movement. Even something as simple as "image sharpness" settings can have a huge effect on the bandwidth.

 

Streaming out to a client also benefits from recompression (producing smaller streams for remote viewing) and multi-streaming cameras (which may have one high-bandwidth stream for best-quality recording, and a low-bandwidth, lower-quality stream for remote viewing).

 

And frankly, if you have a *small business* network, you probably only need a *small business* camera count, which can easily reside on its own completely separate, isolated network.

 

a Cisco 24-port PoE switch costs about $800 and only puts out 7.5watts per port. I'm told that each IP camera requires about 10-12 watts, (not including power for the IRs if they have them) so what do you do for the rest of the power?

See, more misinformation - what you're told is WRONG. First of all, if that switch REALLY only puts out 7.5W per port, then it's not conforming to 802.3af-2003, which currently specifies 15.4W/port (newer -2009 spec allows up to 25.5W). I certainly wouldn't pay $800 for a switch that doesn't even meet spec.

 

Add to that, your power requirements are FAR over-stated. Example: IQEye IQ753, 3.1MP true day/night camera, is listed at a MAX power draw of 2.5W.

 

And as I said before, these same cameras will run off your same CCTV power supply instead of PoE, if that design meets your needs better.

 

Whoever's been schooling you on IP systems is woefully misinformed himself, or has another agenda for spreading blatant lies.

 

Away it's an academic discussion I know, but I just don't see where anyone can come even close to a system-to-system equipment cost comparison (from an installer's cost point of view) - I just can't get excited about IP systems.

That's because you haven't been making proper valid comparisons. You're comparing cheap-grade analog gear to quality IP equipment, for starters; like comparing a little Kia hatchback to a Lexus SUV and deciding that the extra cargo space isn't worth it. You're comparing storage needs based on full-time, all-out performance that isn't required or used in 99.9% of installations. And you're comparing based on poor (or downright WRONG) information on the power and data requirements of the equipment itself.

 

And as thewireguys illustrated, you're looking only at the on-paper drawbacks while ignoring one of the clearest benefits: it breaks beyond the resolution limits imposed by analog video. There are many other benefits beyond that that you're overlooking as well, such as the ability to USE routed data, WANs and VLANs to tie remote cameras and DVRs together even in a SMALL setup.

 

From an installer's perspective, the ability to run numerous cameras over single cable is invaluable - in fact, this saved our butts in an installation completed just this week, where we used an existing network drop between floors to get six 5MP cameras on the main floor connected to a DVR in the basement... with the cameras on their own switch upstairs (8-channel 10/100 PoE ports plus two gigabit ports for downlink, retails for $300), and the cameras, two DVRs and NAS on their own 8-port gigabit SOHO switch downstairs, there's no worry about "crashing the corporate network" - a single connection between the gigabit switch and the corporate LAN provides them remote access to the DVRs, without any of the camera traffic affecting their operations. And oh yes, I say this "saved our butts"... because of the construction (and subsequent numerous reconstructions and renos) or the old building, GETTING a new data drop between floors would have been nearly impossible... or if possible, it would have been very, very ugly.

 

And just to add to the image samples (and don't forget to click the MP images to see them FULL SIZE, as the forum shrinks the display):

 

This is from a typical cheap analog dome (probably cost $60 originally, without IRs, just as a point of comparison to your $40 IR cam), recorded at CIF resolution:

 

And this is from a 1.3MP IQEye 511 mounted directly above the dome (which is visible in the bottom-left):

 

From the same site, on the pub side... another of the same small domes, recorded at 4CIF:

 

And another IQ511 mounted right beside it:

[habarraclough 0]

Well of course guys! In a perfect world where all budgets are unlimited and all customers are technogeeks you make great arguments. For the guy who has a 50-mile round trip to work every day, the grocery store at weekends, a family vacation a couple of times a year and a limited budget, should we try and justify to him that he should buy a Mercedes CLS550 or a Hyundai Sonata? Both will get him where he's going, are similarly good-looking, and have a nice ride with lots of creature comforts. The Sonata gets better gas mileage (and on regular not premium), costs less for insurance and repairs (a lot less, believe me), has a better warranty, and furthermore if it gets a door ding in the parking lot you freak out a lot less. The CLS550 does go faster though (I own one of each). But he can buy 3 Sonatas for the price of the one CLS that he can't (or won't) afford.

I sell in the real world, to independent retail businesses - convenience stores, daycares, car lots, jewelry stores, etc.. It's tough nowadays to get them to spend ANY money, let alone a ton of it. So if I have to replace an odd camera now and then, or very rarely even a DVR - so what? I give a one-year replacement warranty and replacements cost me very little but get me great "attaboys" for responsive no-argument customer service. Do most of my customers/prospects want "HDTV" costing 5x more? - hell no - they just want to see who did what IF something happens.

Soundy - your camera placements are crap. It's impossible to ID anyone in the wine store in either picture, and is the bar camera meant to be a 'cleavage cam'? - if not, why so high and at such a steep angle? I sell a pedestal-mounted covert "pillar camera" which blends into the environment on the retail countertop - it contains a WDR Pixim Sens-Up pinhole lens unit 1.4"x1.4"x0.5" in a custom housing - which could even be made to look like a beer tap (or a bubblegum rack or an advertising sign). It gives customer face shots at 3ft distance from 56"aff. Is that "crap" too? The name of the game is getting reasonably good identification and environment pictures, within or under customer budget, for small businesses who know they need surveillance but see it as an expense they can't really afford.

From time to time I do sell "high end" stuff - a GE SymSafe 16+2 Hybrid with Ganz cameras, or a March Systems, or a Verint, or even a 3VR with facial recognition, and "name brand" or WDR Pixim cameras as customer needs/wants dictate and as they can afford it. Don't discount the inexpensive Asian cameras and DVRs as "crap" just because they don't have a name you recognise - hell, the GE SymSafes are made in Taiwan! Sure, power supplies and fans and boards are "beefier" - but at 10x the price (my cost)? Not affordable for most of my customers anyway.

And just as a snide defensive by-the-way - do you have PMS today?

[Soundy 1]

I sell in the real world, to independent retail businesses - convenience stores, daycares, car lots, jewelry stores, etc.. It's tough nowadays to get them to spend ANY money, let alone a ton of it. So if I have to replace an odd camera now and then, or very rarely even a DVR - so what? I give a one-year replacement warranty and replacements cost me very little but get me great "attaboys" for responsive no-argument customer service. Do most of my customers/prospects want "HDTV" costing 5x more? - hell no - they just want to see who did what IF something happens.

That's exactly the point: even a $200 CNB will give a better image than your $40 IR cam. This is an industry where you really do get what you pay for. What good is it to spend even a pittance on a system if it doesn't provide usable images?

 

As for the "need" for megapixel: say you have a retail client... he has a customer who paid for a purchase, got change, then claims the clerk short-changed him. Your counter shot has to be wide enough to see the whole counter, which with the cheap camera means very little actual detail is visible. Is it helpful to have a view of the counter that doesn't let you see what money was exchanged... or to have spent a bit more and be able to actually read the denominations on the bills?

 

This doesn't cost "5x more"; this capability is available for only marginally more than the price of a "good" analog camera. This makes sense if you're comparing the SLK to an Accord... of course it doesn't work if you're comparing it to a skateboard (even if the skateboard does have bling IR LEDs).

 

Soundy - your camera placements are crap.

Thanks, that's exactly what I was going for. In fact, that's what the client asked for - "I want cameras here and here, so they look like crap."

 

It's impossible to ID anyone in the wine store in either picture,

Of course it is, it's not meant to ID anyone anywhere in the store. It's meant to give a clear view of the entire store. There's another camera with a tight shot on the front door that's dedicated to identifying people (an analog dome with better backlight performance) and assorted other analog cams throughout the store and in the cooler. We're certainly not asking one camera to do ALL the work.

 

and is the bar camera meant to be a 'cleavage cam'? - if not, why so high and at such a steep angle?

It's meant to watch the paypoint - to see (roughly) the usage of the terminals, so it can be correlated to the data being logged from them, and to see payments, as well as monitoring the bar activity itself. Some bars have issues with bartenders going overboard comping drinks to friends... this is intended mainly to combat that, by letting the owner see what the bartender is serving, and then ensuring it gets entered into the system (note the text overlay on the B&W cam).

 

The angle is purely a function of the ceiling structure and architectural details over the bar: the cameras were mounted the only place possible that would give them the view required without obstruction. I know you're used to dealing with stores that no doubt have flat drop-tile ceilings with unobstructed sight lines... in sites like this, that's just not an option.

 

The name of the game is getting reasonably good identification and environment pictures, within or under customer budget, for small businesses who know they need surveillance but see it as an expense they can't really afford.

And yet if it doesn't do a good enough job, it's really not much of a bargain, is it? Read through the forums here, you'll find a LOT of people have pretty unrealistic expectations of the budget to put in a good CCTV system. I don't know about you, but I consider it my job to educate them on the real costs of doing it right, rather than simply pile cheap junk on them just to make the sale within their budget. If they still want to cheap out, fine, but you're not doing them any favors if you just say, "Oh yeah, I can hook you up for cheap".

 

This doesn't apply just to mom-and-pop stores, either. We did a system for a car dealership a few years ago... brand new building, cost into the millions to build. Prime real estate right beside a major commuter route. These guys had no shortage of money. We gave them several options for systems, from basic analog domes to all-megapixel. They went with the cheapest option. We pointed out that they'd wanted to be able to ID people walking through the lot from cameras mounted 30' up on the side of the building and that the cheap cameras wouldn't do that... they decided to go the cheap route anyway. A year later when they called complaining that they couldn't ID the guy that went through the lot and keyed a bunch of cars, we had to remind them of the choice they'd made... even though they didn't have to.

 

The point is not that you need to run out and start replacing everything with megapixel systems and sell nothing but megapixel systems... the point is that you should educate yourself in the FACTS of higher-end equipment, rather than simply dismissing it based on the misinformation you've apparently been operating on. As this stuff gets more and more play in the news (check out this item - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tm6goa5oWI), more people will be asking for it... you might want to bone up on it before they find the need to go elsewhere.

 

Selling this stuff really isn't that hard: the two MP cams pictured in my stills literally sold themselves to this customer: I'd installed some on another site, I took some screen caps, I showed them to the owner of this pub... he took one look and said, "I want that." We sold him two on this site and another for another site of his... and later added a third to this site. They even integrated into his existing DVR (which, incidentally, is the same system seen in the video above).

 

We do this all the time for customers with plenty of money who've been sold cheap junk, because someone insisted on a tight budget, and another integrator just came in and sold them something cheap without thinking twice about it. They later found out that the systems were just plain ineffective, and the "great deal" they thought they'd been getting turned out to largely be money wasted.

 

And yes, we do it for the same kind of "real world" businesses you do: car lots, gas stations, restaurants, pubs, liquor stores, convenience stores, professional buildings, apartment/condo towers, and so on.

 

In the real world, people think they can buy $400 all-in-one package systems from Costo and do the kinds of things they see in the movies, reading people credit card numbers by zooming in on a reflection in someone's sunglasses from across the room, and stuff. It is (or SHOULD BE) part of our job to counsel them otherwise... not to make the upsell, but to find out what they REALLY expect, balance it to what they REALLY need, and come up with a SUITABLE solution, not just a cheap one.... because invariably when they go for the cheap one, they end up pissed off.

[thewireguys 3]

I hear you, but my understanding is like this: Compare a 16-camera system, IP and Analog. A simple progressive scan PoE IP 1mp dome camera from my Asian manufacturer runs about $175, but I can get a similar analog 520tvl dome (with IR capability thrown in) for less than $40 - so the cost difference for cameras alone is about $2,200. Then, a good H.264 16-camera DVR with TWO 1Tb drives costs me about $300 - less than just the software costs I've seen for an NVR, let alone the hardware. As far as storage, I think that 16 x 1.0mp cameras streaming at 30fps will require just over 8Tb of storage for 1 week (?), while my 2x1Tb drives on the DVR will store the same stream for over 2 MONTHS. Bandwidth for the IP system, if I understand it right, will require over 83mbps, plus another 83mbps to stream it out to a client application - that will crash most networks I've seen in typical small businesses. If you network my DVR you get the same benefits without the heartache. And as to PoE:- I compare CAT5 with 2 x 12v10a 9-port power supplies and baluns (my balun + power supply cost is about $350) to CAT5 and a switch with PoE capability - a Cisco 24-port PoE switch costs about $800 and only puts out 7.5watts per port. I'm told that each IP camera requires about 10-12 watts, (not including power for the IRs if they have them) so what do you do for the rest of the power? My 1.25amps per camera from the 2 power supplies is plenty for even the most long-range (300+ft) IR camera.

Anyway it's an academic discussion I know, but I just don't see where anyone can come even close to a system-to-system equipment cost comparison (from an installer's cost point of view) - I just can't get excited about IP systems. If there were significant benefits for the average user I could try and make a case, but I don't see the benefits let alone being able to sell them. And yes, I often use CAT5e or CAT6 with baluns for long camera runs in an analog system - more delicate to pull, but fewer power drop and signal noise issues.

 

 

Sorry man your information is wrong. How is a 520tvl camera similar to a 1.3MP camera, its's 4 times the resolution!!!!! I can do and have done megapixel system for a couple hundred more then analog systems. We are talking apples and oranges here comparing $40 cameras to $600+ megapixel cameras of course you system will be cheaper. But then your talking name brand $300 plus analog cameras, stuff with warranties and manufacture support megapixel is much easier to sell. Also the your talking about Cisco 24 port POE I am assuming you mean the Linksys version.

 

Indoor yes you can use analog res stuff to get face shots for hallways and doors but outside/large open areas megapixel really shins. Take the Arecont 8185 180 camera, it gives you the same resolution as 24 analog cameras. So even with 24 of your $40 analog cameras, power supply's, cable runs, 32 channel dvr, and labor its cheaper to install the one Arecont 180 camera.

 

Megapixel cameras are tools, and you need to use the right tool for the job.

[Soundy 1]

Megapixel cameras are tools, and you need to use the right tool for the job.

Ah, ya know, there are no so blind as those who WILL NOT see.

 

Probably best to let these guys labor under their misconceptions, hawking their cheap junk systems and allowing their to customers throw good money after bad for the sake of a quick sale...

 

The rest of us will always be there to pick up the pieces when those customers decide they need to go to something better... to sell them a 3/4-ton pickup for their monthly dump runs after their little Korean hatchback snaps in half under the strain Those customers are a much easier sell for a better system - I know, we've snapped up a number of them in the last couple years.

[thewireguys 3]

Megapixel cameras are tools, and you need to use the right tool for the job.

Ah, ya know, there are no so blind as those who WILL NOT see.

 

Probably best to let these guys labor under their misconceptions, hawking their cheap junk systems and allowing their to customers throw good money after bad for the sake of a quick sale...

 

The rest of us will always be there to pick up the pieces when those customers decide they need to go to something better... to sell them a 3/4-ton pickup for their monthly dump runs after their little Korean hatchback snaps in half under the strain Those customers are a much easier sell for a better system - I know, we've snapped up a number of them in the last couple years.

 

I was at a ICrealtime training, just to see how there product works. I was amazed how much false info he was giving out. I was calling him out on some of it but if I wouldn't have said anything everryone in the room would have thought he was selling megpixel analog cameras

 

Now I wish I wouldn't have said anything

 

I am working on a city/borough solution when the previous integrator sold them a 4 camera Ioimage system with analytics. Guess what, they can't identify people in with the system so the first time I showed a 5MP image they said WOW. Now there is a lot more to it but we are moving all of the analog res cameras to locations where they will be useful and replacing them with Megapixel cameras that WILL identify people and license plates. The fact is I can and have proved to them the system is capable to doing what they want. Not just sold them a stuff to make a quick buck.

[habarraclough 0]

Sitting here reading your posts and realized that you guys are SO defensive! (Also quite insulting.)

I started my business after retiring from planning, configuring and selling financial institution electronic and physical security systems for over 20 years, and prior to that for 20+ years as a banker. I began configuring FI surveillance systems when all we had to offer was 35mm film cameras, then b/w low res on VCRs, and eventually digital. I'm completely familiar with, and have sold a crapload of, stuff like Lanex/Verint, March and 3VR with cameras from Dallmeier, Ganz, and many others. I helped in developing the FBI's "recommendations" when they first permitted the use of VCRs and analog cameras. I've designed, sold and installed systems for well over 250 bank and CU branches over the years - I know the business, and I know the equipment. We tried to get some of our bigger customers (BofA, 5th/3rd, BB&T, Wachovia) interested in 8-megapixel 180-degree IP panoramic cameras for teller lines - made sense for many reasons - but without success because they couldn't justify the cost/benefit. The research required to make those presentations meant I had to "kinda know" what the hell I was talking about.

When I started my business I started out trying to sell the same stuff to retail/commercial that I was familiar with, and had sold to FIs. I quickly realized that I was getting nowhere, and wouldn't be able to make a living unless I began to compete in the "low end" market. Is what the majority of what I sell now "inferior" to the high-end stuff I grew up with? - sure it is, but again, to make a living in this business in this economy, it's all about the cost/benefit/available budget equation.

All this insulting "your stuff is crap", "you don't know jack", "you're selling junk" discussion came somehow out of my original innocent and honest question about how to (maybe) make a big honking DVRL into an NVR so I can get it off my books. I didn't expect to become, nor will I continue to be, the brunt of y'alls insults and venom, and I see no reason for any of it.

Have a wonderful life, y'all - if you can make a good living selling your high-end stuff good for you! - I hope you continue to be able to. I'm simply a small business owner, making a living by performing a service for other small businesses on tight budgets, getting them something they can afford so that they at least have SOME degree of protection.

I see no reason for me to continue to read your pompous insulting diatribes.