POS text overlay on video. Need help & Recomendation

[johnty 0]

Hello all

 

I have small fast food outlet where I have installed 8 channel cctv (Pc based PCI DVR card). that can be seen over the net.

I would like to update the old cash register with a new touch screen one and also would like it to connect it with the cctv system.

 

The dvr card I am using is Swan (BNC).

 

Which cash register would you recommend that can insert text layer onto the cctv video too.

 

I can also consider updating the cctv system if needed.

 

Thanks

[Soundy 1]

If you insist on text overlay, something like this will work:

http://www.honeywellvideo.com/products/ias/da/pr/125775.html

 

We've used older versions of these extensively, and the newest model once. Honeywell support was outstanding in helping get it configured for a Squirrel POS system.

 

A preferable method, in my books, is a DVR that logs the POS data to its database - this makes it fully searchable, which video-overlaid information is not.

 

As to what POS to use, best place to start is probably to look at the "supported devices" list for whatever interface or DVR you choose. Some will communicate over the network; others send it out as plain text via a serial port, for the TVS/DVR to capture.

[Dirk_D 0]

where is your store?

[johnty 0]

If you insist on text overlay, something like this will work:

http://www.honeywellvideo.com/products/ias/da/pr/125775.html

 

We've used older versions of these extensively, and the newest model once. Honeywell support was outstanding in helping get it configured for a Squirrel POS system.

 

A preferable method, in my books, is a DVR that logs the POS data to its database - this makes it fully searchable, which video-overlaid information is not.

 

As to what POS to use, best place to start is probably to look at the "supported devices" list for whatever interface or DVR you choose. Some will communicate over the network; others send it out as plain text via a serial port, for the TVS/DVR to capture.

thanks for your input.

I really do not insist on text overlay however my main purpose is to capture data from the cash register that I can see in real time over the net.

from the link "smartpit"

can i just plugin this in the cash register and connect it to rs232 port on the pc to be able to see the output in realtime?

 

thanks.

 

My store is Stoke0on0trent UK.

[Soundy 1]

thanks for your input.

I really do not insist on text overlay however my main purpose is to capture data from the cash register that I can see in real time over the net.

Both of these methods will do that.

 

from the link "smartpit"

can i just plugin this in the cash register and connect it to rs232 port on the pc to be able to see the output in realtime?

No... most commonly, the data input of the SmartPit is connected to an RS-232 port on the register. The register is then configured to send data to that port; often it will be an option for a "Polewatcher" device (that's the little stalk-mounted one- or two-line display that shows the customer what's being rung through), or some other option that sends plain text (some have specific options for output to DVRs).

 

The SmartPit then has video in and out ports - the camera connects to the video in, the SmartPit overlays the text on the video, and the output then goes to an input on the DVR. SmartPit also has a pass-through port, so the data can ALSO be sent to the DVR unaltered, as well as a "filtered" output, so it can remove formatting codes and whatnot and output the "cleaned" data as well.

 

As far as the data-logging option, I can only speak specifically about the way Vigil handles it... but even in the remote client, the data can be searched, and displays alongside the video window. If you select an item in the data display, the video will jump to the matching instant in time (if there are multiple cameras on multiple registers, it will also let you associate the appropriate camera with each register, and will switch to the relevant camera view). As you play the video, relevant lines in the data display will be highlighted as well.

 

It doesn't look as "hi-tech" as having the text on the video, but it's far more powerful to be able to search the data.

[johnty 0]

Thanks for your explanation in detail soundy.

Now I understand how the text inserter works.

having said that is there any other beside smartpit that i can buy in UK?

how much do they cost?

 

thanks

[tomcctv 190]

Thanks for your explanation in detail soundy.

Now I understand how the text inserter works.

having said that is there any other beside smartpit that i can buy in UK?

how much do they cost?

 

thanks

 

 

Hi johnty. text overlay is expensive and like soundy has said you are best with database search. the way i think you sould go and the cheapest is to change your dvr card to a card that has pos software. this is the best way and if you have more than 1 till you will also need the text overlay for each till ............ swap your card ... its the cheapest way

[Kablooie 0]

I have experience with both text overlay and searchable databases. I perform some loss prevention services for some clients and I really don't prefer one over the other, just as long as the text can be exported along with video and viewed during playback - especially when presenting the video on disc to a third party, such as the police.

 

Having a searchable database can be useful, but you need to know what to search for. There can be many false positives when looking through transaction data for theft. People make mistakes and customers can change their minds. Take a fast food restaurant for instance. Example 1: A customer orders a burger and asks for a fountain drink, then changes their mind and asks for a bottle drink instead, then adds a side item - when they see the total they may want to take an item or two off because they don't want to pay the price or just don't have the money. Then they can change their mind completely and order a salad instead. Example 2: A customer keeps asking prices - how much is a roast beef sandwich.....how much with fries....how much with a drink....how much with chips....I have a coupon, how much....etc. etc. etc. The employee will use the POS system to get the totals and all those items are put in, taken out, put in, taken out....wash, rinse, repeat. Example 3: Employee rings in the sale for customer1, but he is not ready to pay, so the transaction isn't finalized. Customer2 walks up and just wants a drink, so customer1's order is removed and a drink rung up. Next transaction shows customer1's order put back in, but the prior transaction looks like theft.

 

I see transactions like those all the time and initially it looks like theft, but video reveals what actually happened. So, if you're searching through a text database on the DVR you can get alot of false positives and may spend alot of time looking at video of legitimate transactions.

 

Also, the text captured by the DVR may not show everything that happened - this all depends on how the text is captured. If capturing text sent to a receipt printer, all transactions will look good in the DVR database. The database on the actual POS System will show all the voided items though, so that's a better place to search transaction text.

 

In my opinion a better way to find theft is to look at the transaction data right from the POS database itself. When you know what to look for you can review an entire day's worth of transactions in 20-30 minutes, then go to the DVR and review transactions that look suspicious. I do this on a dual monitor setup and it works great.

 

I hope I'm making myself clear with this. The bottom line is that a searchable database on the DVR can be useful, but it's only as good as the data it captures....and it may not capture everything. The POS system captures everything. What I want to see when reviewing video is that the final receipt includes everything the customer has purchased. If the receipt shows 1 drink, but the customer walks away with 4 salads, well, that's a problem and it may not be reflected in the DVR database.

[Soundy 1]

Having a searchable database can be useful, but you need to know what to search for. There can be many false positives when looking through transaction data for theft. People make mistakes and customers can change their minds.

Whether that's a problem kinda depends on how the DVR displays the data. Vigil shows your entire search results in a multi-line grid, so you can view the surrounding transactions at a glance - it would be fairly clear if a customer changed his order, especially as the highlighted data line scrolls in sync with the video.

 

Example 3: Employee rings in the sale for customer1, but he is not ready to pay, so the transaction isn't finalized. Customer2 walks up and just wants a drink, so customer1's order is removed and a drink rung up. Next transaction shows customer1's order put back in, but the prior transaction looks like theft.

 

...

 

Also, the text captured by the DVR may not show everything that happened - this all depends on how the text is captured. If capturing text sent to a receipt printer, all transactions will look good in the DVR database. The database on the actual POS System will show all the voided items though, so that's a better place to search transaction text.

This isn't really a failing of the DVR, though... it's entirely a factor of what data the POS sends. The DVR can (or should) be able to log and display anything sent to it. In your example above, many POS systems will have a function to "hold" the current transaction and allow the clerk to move on the next one; as long as it's sending that information to the DVR, it would show up as such in the log.

 

I hope I'm making myself clear with this. The bottom line is that a searchable database on the DVR can be useful, but it's only as good as the data it captures....and it may not capture everything.

Again, it should be capable of capturing anything the POS sends it... it's only as good as the data it's given.

[johnty 0]

Thanks you all

My mind getting clearer and clearer about the text inserter.

I have never seen one physically however now i know how it works and what it does..

 

right my requirement is not to bother about searchable database.

If the text inserter is stamping the transaction onto the video which is already gonna be recorded by the DVR card onto the PC hard disk, good enough for me.

why I do not want a searchable transaction because I do get the end of the day reports from the employee and cash register itself. (I have only on register).

 

Now I was thinking if this can be done via the same pc!!

e.g. Find a PCI card with Video-In, Data-In and Video-Out ports.

Capture the text from register output port and CCTV camera to PC. use a software to layered up the text over the video and send it to DVR-Card. [i know thats what the text inserter does]

 

Anybody know if there is such PC based card exist? which are if the same price can be space saver too.

I'll do some more research and will let you if I found something.

regards

[tomcctv 190]

Thanks you all

My mind getting clearer and clearer about the text inserter.

I have never seen one physically however now i know how it works and what it does..

 

right my requirement is not to bother about searchable database.

If the text inserter is stamping the transaction onto the video which is already gonna be recorded by the DVR card onto the PC hard disk, good enough for me.

why I do not want a searchable transaction because I do get the end of the day reports from the employee and cash register itself. (I have only on register).

 

Now I was thinking if this can be done via the same pc!!

e.g. Find a PCI card with Video-In, Data-In and Video-Out ports.

Capture the text from register output port and CCTV camera to PC. use a software to layered up the text over the video and send it to DVR-Card. [i know thats what the text inserter does]

 

Anybody know if there is such PC based card exist? which are if the same price can be space saver too.

I'll do some more research and will let you if I found something.

regards

 

 

 

it all depends on what type of shop you have.

[tomcctv 190]

I have experience with both text overlay and searchable databases. I perform some loss prevention services for some clients and I really don't prefer one over the other, just as long as the text can be exported along with video and viewed during playback - especially when presenting the video on disc to a third party, such as the police.

 

 

In my opinion a better way to find theft is to look at the transaction data right from the POS database itself. When you know what to look for you can review an entire day's worth of transactions in 20-30 minutes, then go to the DVR and review transactions that look suspicious. I do this on a dual monitor setup and it works great.

 

I hope I'm making myself clear with this. The bottom line is that a searchable database on the DVR can be useful, but it's only as good as the data it captures....and it may not capture everything. The POS system captures everything. What I want to see when reviewing video is that the final receipt includes everything the customer has purchased. If the receipt shows 1 drink, but the customer walks away with 4 salads, well, that's a problem and it may not be reflected in the DVR database.

 

 

that type of pos search is so old . a searchable database is much faster and better.

[johnty 0]

Thanks you all

My mind getting clearer and clearer about the text inserter.

I have never seen one physically however now i know how it works and what it does..

 

right my requirement is not to bother about searchable database.

If the text inserter is stamping the transaction onto the video which is already gonna be recorded by the DVR card onto the PC hard disk, good enough for me.

why I do not want a searchable transaction because I do get the end of the day reports from the employee and cash register itself. (I have only on register).

 

Now I was thinking if this can be done via the same pc!!

e.g. Find a PCI card with Video-In, Data-In and Video-Out ports.

Capture the text from register output port and CCTV camera to PC. use a software to layered up the text over the video and send it to DVR-Card. [i know thats what the text inserter does]

 

Anybody know if there is such PC based card exist? which are if the same price can be space saver too.

I'll do some more research and will let you if I found something.

regards

 

 

 

it all depends on what type of shop you have.

small fast food outlet "Fish & Chips"

[johnty 0]

I have another idea.. not very glamorous but works.

 

Get a serial port monitor. leave the programme open on desktop and the stream the desktop

I know it is not stamping onto the video or connected in anyway to the cctv system how ever watching the CCTV remotely the data stream will be running in other window..

 

I am gonna try it first and hopefully will post the video stream here too..

 

 

 

 

 

[sorry did not introduced myself before. I am also qualified MCSE so networking is my thing so feel free to shoot ideas at me]

Edited December 2, 2010 by Guest

[tomcctv 190]

fish and chips. is not lie high risk just text overlay will do............ but like most overlay units you also need to give a recipt. in the uk your text overlay is going to cost you £360 but if you change your dvr card from the swann to one with pos you will save money.

[johnty 0]

fish and chips. is not lie high risk just text overlay will do............ but like most overlay units you also need to give a recipt. in the uk your text overlay is going to cost you £360 but if you change your dvr card from the swann to one with pos you will save money.

 

thanks

 

I know it is not hight risk but we do offer quite a few products.

 

You know when you do 7 days work like your mind just switches off.. I want to get out of the shop and let somebody else mange it for me but I wanted to keep my eye on it and that is how I started asking for text inserter.

Thanks to all of you specially soundy for his explanation which was real kick in the aaaa for me

My cousin also has grocery shop with 16 channel pcbased system with two register so I also thinking about that too..

I have some exam now so hopefully after 15th Dec I'll free to try all of my idea in practically and post it here too..

[tomcctv 190]

I have another idea.. not very glamorous but works.

 

Get a serial port monitor. leave the programme open on desktop and the stream the desktop

I know it is not stamping onto the video or connected in anyway to the cctv system how ever watching the CCTV remotely the data stream will be running in other window..

 

I am gonna try it first and hopefully will post the video stream here too..

 

serial port monitor ??????? how. you say in your post you are getting a new touch till ............... your output is vga. (your going to be on a windows system) how are you going to record the data from the till. if you have a problem in your shop and the police want footage or you want footage of money going missing it must be in the same picture (text overlay) with timestamp in the uk.

[tomcctv 190]

fish and chips. is not lie high risk just text overlay will do............ but like most overlay units you also need to give a recipt. in the uk your text overlay is going to cost you £360 but if you change your dvr card from the swann to one with pos you will save money.

 

thanks

 

I know it is not hight risk but we do offer quite a few products.

 

You know when you do 7 days work like your mind just switches off.. I want to get out of the shop and let somebody else mange it for me but I wanted to keep my eye on it and that is how I started asking for text inserter.

Thanks to all of you specially soundy for his explanation which was real kick in the aaaa for me

My cousin also has grocery shop with 16 channel pcbased system with two register so I also thinking about that too..

I have some exam now so hopefully after 15th Dec I'll free to try all of my idea in practically and post it here too..

 

 

just one more thing ............... please dont think that the text comming from your till will show up on anything

 

on every till it is code you have to convert it hex / dex binnery ............ dont think you till puts out standard text because it cant.

[johnty 0]

I have another idea.. not very glamorous but works.

 

Get a serial port monitor. leave the programme open on desktop and the stream the desktop

I know it is not stamping onto the video or connected in anyway to the cctv system how ever watching the CCTV remotely the data stream will be running in other window..

 

I am gonna try it first and hopefully will post the video stream here too..

 

serial port monitor ??????? how. you say in your post you are getting a new touch till ............... your output is vga. (your going to be on a windows system) how are you going to record the data from the till. if you have a problem in your shop and the police want footage or you want footage of money going missing it must be in the same picture (text overlay) with timestamp in the uk.

 

you are right I said I am thinking about it. now as I am getting familiar with the all the process I really do not need to change the register . [Now only if I need to]

 

Now any printer that can send data to pole watcher or most importantly to printer, that output port can be monitored. doesn't matter what type of port is it.

 

I do not worry about police thing just sack the the bugger stealing money from me..

[johnty 0]

fish and chips. is not lie high risk just text overlay will do............ but like most overlay units you also need to give a recipt. in the uk your text overlay is going to cost you £360 but if you change your dvr card from the swann to one with pos you will save money.

 

thanks

 

I know it is not hight risk but we do offer quite a few products.

 

You know when you do 7 days work like your mind just switches off.. I want to get out of the shop and let somebody else mange it for me but I wanted to keep my eye on it and that is how I started asking for text inserter.

Thanks to all of you specially soundy for his explanation which was real kick in the aaaa for me

My cousin also has grocery shop with 16 channel pcbased system with two register so I also thinking about that too..

I have some exam now so hopefully after 15th Dec I'll free to try all of my idea in practically and post it here too..

 

 

just one more thing ............... please dont think that the text comming from your till will show up on anything

 

on every till it is code you have to convert it hex / dex binnery ............ dont think you till puts out standard text because it cant.

 

Thanks I already had this in mind and I came across once a software that can convert it in realtime..

[tomcctv 190]

no i dont think you understand .............. each manufactura till maker has differant codes ............ there is software called pos capture but you still cant read it. unless you have a text box. you can pull the data of your till but you need to convert it. IT DOES NOT COME OUT OF YOUR TILL AS TEXT.

[tomcctv 190]

I have another idea.. not very glamorous but works.

 

Get a serial port monitor. leave the programme open on desktop and the stream the desktop

I know it is not stamping onto the video or connected in anyway to the cctv system how ever watching the CCTV remotely the data stream will be running in other window..

 

I am gonna try it first and hopefully will post the video stream here too..

 

serial port monitor ??????? how. you say in your post you are getting a new touch till ............... your output is vga. (your going to be on a windows system) how are you going to record the data from the till. if you have a problem in your shop and the police want footage or you want footage of money going missing it must be in the same picture (text overlay) with timestamp in the uk.

 

you are right I said I am thinking about it. now as I am getting familiar with the all the process I really do not need to change the register . [Now only if I need to]

 

Now any printer that can send data to pole watcher or most importantly to printer, that output port can be monitored. doesn't matter what type of port is it.

 

I do not worry about police thing just sack the the bugger stealing money from me..

 

 

am only trying to help you here.............. yes you are right your printer output can be monitored. but data is only sent to the printer once you have pressed the sale button (hence recipt) you will have a epsom printer. you data pins are 3 and 5 so that is how you would monitor the data from your till ............. you still need to turn the data to text ........ you need a text box

[Soundy 1]

no i dont think you understand .............. each manufactura till maker has differant codes ............ there is software called pos capture but you still cant read it. unless you have a text box. you can pull the data of your till but you need to convert it. IT DOES NOT COME OUT OF YOUR TILL AS TEXT.

Not necessarily true. Most till printers are just simple ASCII printers - that WILL be plain text, with CRs/LFs and possibly TABs in appropriate places. Ditto with Polewatcher outputs, since a Polewatcher display just accepts and displays plain text. The main issue with logging it to a DVR is that the software needs to understand the layout of the information - ie. register number, transaction number, item name, item price, etc., to sort and store them in the right columns. The output itself is perfectly legible, in most cases.

 

As noted above though, a printer output is not generally good for live data capture, because it doesn't usually send data until the transaction is complete (and sometimes not until PRINT is specifically selected). A Polewatcher output is preferable because it's generally realtime - item is entered/scanned, item displays immediately.

[tomcctv 190]

no i dont think you understand .............. each manufactura till maker has differant codes ............ there is software called pos capture but you still cant read it. unless you have a text box. you can pull the data of your till but you need to convert it. IT DOES NOT COME OUT OF YOUR TILL AS TEXT.

Not necessarily true. Most till printers are just simple ASCII printers - that WILL be plain text, with CRs/LFs and possibly TABs in appropriate places. Ditto with Polewatcher outputs, since a Polewatcher display just accepts and displays plain text. The main issue with logging it to a DVR is that the software needs to understand the layout of the information - ie. register number, transaction number, item name, item price, etc., to sort and store them in the right columns. The output itself is perfectly legible, in most cases.

 

As noted above though, a printer output is not generally good for live data capture, because it doesn't usually send data until the transaction is complete (and sometimes not until PRINT is specifically selected). A Polewatcher output is preferable because it's generally realtime - item is entered/scanned, item displays immediately.

 

 

 

yes pole display and printer get the same data. what i do not understand is how the op is going to see the data without a pos box or text overlay box (both of which converts the data to text) he could use UTP but his dvr does not allow that.

 

for him to say he is going to just monitor his data out on a monitor is only going to give him binary.

Serial communications are simply a series of voltage or current changes which are translated into the binary equivalents of 1 or 0s. After a series of this data is received, the computer reconstructs the serial data into its original binary format for computation.

[Soundy 1]

no i dont think you understand .............. each manufactura till maker has differant codes ............ there is software called pos capture but you still cant read it. unless you have a text box. you can pull the data of your till but you need to convert it. IT DOES NOT COME OUT OF YOUR TILL AS TEXT.

Not necessarily true. Most till printers are just simple ASCII printers - that WILL be plain text, with CRs/LFs and possibly TABs in appropriate places. Ditto with Polewatcher outputs, since a Polewatcher display just accepts and displays plain text. The main issue with logging it to a DVR is that the software needs to understand the layout of the information - ie. register number, transaction number, item name, item price, etc., to sort and store them in the right columns. The output itself is perfectly legible, in most cases.

 

As noted above though, a printer output is not generally good for live data capture, because it doesn't usually send data until the transaction is complete (and sometimes not until PRINT is specifically selected). A Polewatcher output is preferable because it's generally realtime - item is entered/scanned, item displays immediately.

 

 

 

yes pole display and printer get the same data. what i do not understand is how the op is going to see the data without a pos box or text overlay box (both of which converts the data to text) he could use UTP but his dvr does not allow that.

 

for him to say he is going to just monitor his data out on a monitor is only going to give him binary.

Serial communications are simply a series of voltage or current changes which are translated into the binary equivalents of 1 or 0s. After a series of this data is received, the computer reconstructs the serial data into its original binary format for computation.

Ummm.... I think you're over-thinking this. Most POS printers and polewatcher displays connect via serial. You hook the register's serial output to the DVR's serial port, and capture the data from there. The register sends plain ASCII text - you can view it using HyperTerm or any other terminal app that lets you access the serial port - it just shows up as regular alphanumeric info.

 

It's really not that complex - it's just like talking to a modem.