Newbie Seeks Prewiring Advice

[mark_g 0]

I'm new to the forum, so pardon if this has been covered before.

 

Our house in a remote area of NY State is under construction and we want to lay in the right cabling for cctv now. There are a couple of buildings and base has been poured for a tower (condiut in between all). Distances do not exceed 200' in any one run direction.

 

We were planning to put in high quality all-copper RG-6 cable with separate 18/2 for power and use jacketed-flooded cable for all underground runs. My contractor has suggested we consider Cat 5 or Cat 6 instead with baluns on the ends.

 

I've generally subscribed to the school that the fewer boxes and connections between sources, the better, but there seem to be advantages--being able to run multiple cameras off one run, can incorporate RS484(?) control wiring if we upgrade to dome, fewer cables to pull and maintain.

 

I can make cabling accessible to change or upgrade as technology advances; thus I'm not looking to "future proof" cabling, but to put in the best, most sensible backbone for today.

 

In the real world, can you share your experiences going either RG or Cat-5 (or other) Balun route?

 

Thanks in advance, Mark

[ak357 0]

I'm new to the forum, so pardon if this has been covered before.

 

Our house in a remote area of NY State is under construction and we want to lay in the right cabling for cctv now. There are a couple of buildings and base has been poured for a tower (condiut in between all). Distances do not exceed 200' in any one run direction.

 

We were planning to put in high quality all-copper RG-6 cable with separate 18/2 for power and use jacketed-flooded cable for all underground runs. My contractor has suggested we consider Cat 5 or Cat 6 instead with baluns on the ends.

 

I've generally subscribed to the school that the fewer boxes and connections between sources, the better, but there seem to be advantages--being able to run multiple cameras off one run, can incorporate RS484(?) control wiring if we upgrade to dome, fewer cables to pull and maintain.

 

I can make cabling accessible to change or upgrade as technology advances; thus I'm not looking to "future proof" cabling, but to put in the best, most sensible backbone for today.

 

In the real world, can you share your experiences going either RG or Cat-5 (or other) Balun route?

 

Thanks in advance, Mark

 

I would run RG 6 ,Cat 5 and 18/2 to every point

Actually even more -- 2 Cat 5 runs

cable is cheap

and you will not feel sorry later

[mark_g 0]

Thanks for the quick feedback ak357.

 

With a little smurf, I can pull in whatever cable is needed, when it's needed or as technology changes.

 

I'm wondering what to install now--in the real world, are there advantages or disadvantages to running balanced? And if using baluns is the way to go, then why are all the cameras I've seen only have RF outputs?

 

I don't know anything abt digital or IP cameras, so maybe that is worth considering--but in the meantime, what cable for today?

 

Thanks again, Mark

[cglaeser 0]

We were planning to put in high quality all-copper RG-6 cable with separate 18/2 for power and use jacketed-flooded cable for all underground runs. My contractor has suggested we consider Cat 5 or Cat 6 instead with baluns on the ends.

 

If it were my house, I would not install RG-6. I would install Cat 5 (or Cat 6). I use both cameras and PIRs to secure the outdoors (e.g. Crow Daredevils) and Cat 5 will support both just fine. If I thought there were an area that needed an IR Illuminator (e.g. RayMax or CNB MIR), I would also install 18/2 for that. Just my two cents.

 

Best,

Christopher

[cglaeser 0]

I would run RG 6

 

Just curious, why?

 

Best,

Christopher

[ak357 0]

I would run RG 6

 

Just curious, why?

 

Best,

Christopher

 

Satellite distribution may be

RF video may be

its too cheap not to do it

 

$ 50 -60 for 1000 feet why not

[cglaeser 0]

Satellite distribution may be

RF video may be

I thought the OP was about CCTV wiring.

 

its too cheap not to do it

 

$ 50 -60 for 1000 feet why not

That's the cost of the cable. What about the labor? When my house was being built the builder offered a $2,000 upgrade to add a water softener hookup. How much were the materials? Maybe $12?

 

Best,

Christopher

[ak357 0]

 

That's the cost of the cable. What about the labor? When my house was being built the builder offered a $2,000 upgrade to add a water softener hookup. How much were the materials? Maybe $12?

 

Best,

Christopher

 

From this point you right

I was talking as do it yourself

[thewireguys 3]

Cat5 and 18/2 or 16/2

[Soundy 1]

We're going Cat5 for almost all installs these days. When you install regularly, it makes sense to only have to carry one type of cable around. As Christopher has noted, it works for video, power, serial control, audio, network... and almost any combination thereof (you can even run 10/100 *and* video on a single cable, in a pinch). Many aren't fond of the idea, but yes, you can also use it for alarm wiring.

 

I'd put in two or three Cat5 runs to each point, and if anything, add an 18/2 or 16/2 in case you install something later with heavier power demands.

 

RG6 would be useful, say, to the tower, in case you add satellite at some point... but if wiring JUST for CCTV, and you really want to use coax, I'd recommend RG59 - thinner, lighter, and generally a lot more flexible/pliable. Either way, make sure to use a cable with solid copper core and 95% braided copper shield - no jacketed steel or aluminum foil shields.

 

As to advantages or disadvantages: coax only allows you up to about 200-300m; passive baluns over UTP can easily extend you to 800-1000m, and over a mile using active baluns. The balanced design also inherently rejects induced noise.

 

The main disadvantage is that when using cheap 12VDC cameras, which use a common ground for power and video, you can get ground loops with multiple cameras on a single power supply. Depending on how many pairs you use for power and the load you put on it (PTZs, high-LED-count IRs), you can also see excessive voltage drop over longer runs, especially at 12VDC (losses are about half when using 24V). Realistically though, this won't be a problem in most instances. Stick with 24VAC cameras and power and you avoid both issues.

 

As for cameras having "only RF" - actually, they have composite video outputs, not RF... and several camera models do have built-in baluns, either standard, or as an option. If they DO have it, it's probably there at an extra cost, so there's not really a benefit to it other than installation simplicity. It's still composite video, BTW... just a difference in the type of wire used.

[SEANHAWG 1]

I am a big fan of RG59 Siamese Cable, however it would be foolish not to "prewire" CAT5 or CAT6 cable throughout your house that is under construction. I agree with your contracter. The reason being, is because you will regret it if you dont. There will be a day where you will want to jump on the IP bandwagon and once you jump on it and you dont have CAT5 running through your house, you are going to kick yourself. I definetely agree with the other posters about running seperate 18/2 alongside the CAT5 too.

 

And normally like you said adding more connections to a cable run usually is not a good thing but this is an exception if its done correctly.

 

I installed a camera today at my house and I kept saying to myself how I wish I knew about CCTV stuff when I built my house because if I did, I would have wired that baby up. My recommendation would be to run wires to every possible place where you "think" you may want a camera, even if you might not put a camera there, its better to be safe than sorry, now is an oppurtune time and you want to take advantage of it.

[mark_g 0]

We are running Cat-6 and RG-6 everywhere needed in the house, thru smurf (flex plastic conduit), so we can change cable to all technology locations when or as necessary.

 

My main question is concerning wiring for cctv cameras--to run RG or Cat-6 cable there. So far, it seems that Cat-5 (or 6) will be much more versatile for cctv now and in the future than RG-59 or RG-6. And a second 16/2 for power needs wd also be recommended for other than POE devices. Is that the consensus, that there's no benefit to RG anymore for any practical reason?

 

--Mark

[Soundy 1]

Other than for RF (satellite/MATV/CATV), I can't think of any common residential application that would REQUIRE coax of any type.

 

One thing about the conduit: try to wire everything you think you'll need right from the start. Pulling more wire later is usually POSSIBLE... IF you have enough room in the pipe, and IF you don't have too many curves, and IF you used plenty of yellow lube (the kind that stays slick on the wires - the clear water-based stuff doesn't).

 

Remember that the pull string (assuming you pull one in with your runs) will be twisted into and around the bundle, so you'll have additional friction there, which will be exacerbated any time it goes around a corner. The harder you pull, the more damage the string will do to the existing wires' jackets.

 

The more wire you try to add later, the more difficult it becomes, too, as the new wire will, naturally, follow the string's path in and among the existing wires.

 

Best way to avoid this is to try to anticipate future needs and run overkill in the first place.

[cglaeser 0]

My main question is concerning wiring for cctv cameras--to run RG or Cat-6 cable there. So far, it seems that Cat-5 (or 6) will be much more versatile for cctv now and in the future than RG-59 or RG-6. And a second 16/2 for power needs wd also be recommended for other than POE devices. Is that the consensus, that there's no benefit to RG anymore for any practical reason?

 

Yes, I think that is the consensus. Cat 5 works well for CCTV cameras, PoE IP cameras, and PIRs (I'm a big fan of outdoor PIRs), and 16/2 should handle any higher power 24VAC/12VDC devices you might need such as IR Illuminators.

 

Best,

Christopher

[jeromephone 6]

If you are running outdoors consider/use outdoor rated cable in you undergroud conduit runs. You will get moisture in the ones underground. Also make sure to use large enough conduit if you use plastic

[bryceb 0]

With a little smurf, I can pull in whatever cable is needed....

 

Could I borrow him for a while? I always wanted a cable-pulling smurf.

[mike_va 0]

Hobbyist opinion:

 

We have an unfinished basement and have been running RG59 and Cat5E together. The only reason we are running coax is the cost of good IP cameras. I have no experience with baluns, and for what they appear to cost for a decent one it seemed easier to add the coax.

 

If you are paying a lot to get the coax run we would skip it.

 

The thing I wish our house had was spots built into the house for cameras (and illuminators for that matter). Aside from under the eaves, it would be great to have camera spots under the sconces on either side of the garage (for those people that like to take GPS's) and by the front door for package delivery. As it is we are going to have to make something custom to get all the coverage we want. We learned that we needed illumination even with decent low light cameras to get the resolution.

 

You may want to consider shielded Cat5E. The only reason I mention this is we had a cheap Lorex camera at one point that interfered with some RF stuff (Honeywell transceiver). I don't know if there is any reason not to use it (aside from cost/hassle). Having said that we have unshielded Cat5E all over the place and have had no problems with the RadioRa lighting etc. However as time marches on your RF environment will become worse (due to switching power supplies etc).

 

One last thought if you are running ethernet you may want to consider at least one everywhere you want a TV (Netflix/gaming/etc).

[Soundy 1]

Shielded cable is of minimal value unless you ground the shield at one end... I've yet to find readily-available, user-installable RJ-45 plugs for shielded.

 

When using baluns, shielding shouldn't be needed except in extreme conditions - the balanced line inherently rejects noise.

 

When we started using baluns, the cheapest we could get were over $35 each... wholesale. These days I can get GEM minis for <$10/pair. I did some testing with a near-full box of Cat5e (so, around 800' of coiled cable) and a variety of baluns ranging from $13/pair models to $45/ea units with built-in surge suppression, and found little to no visible difference in image quality.

 

Since RG59 and Cat5e run about the same price (at least when we buy by the 1000' box), baluns running <$10/pair is a definite savings, after you factor in the need to run power alongside the coax (we normally use 22/4 Station-Z wire), and the fact that pulling two different types of cable together can be a real hassle, especially if you have to stage out multiple pulls.

[SEANHAWG 1]

and the fact that pulling two different types of cable together can be a real hassle,

 

Do you normally run power over Cat5? If so, at what length runs do you normally experience power loss?

[thewireguys 3]

shielded Cat5E is not needed.

 

Soundy... Do you guys pull plenum cable? if you don't your lucking box of cat5 plenum is $400 and rg-59 + 18/2 is alot more.

 

 

Also I must agree with Soundy it is much easier to pull bundled cable then individual cables at the same time.

[rory 0]

rg59 siamese. you have short runs. Or RG6 if you can find it and afford it (not cattv cable)

unless you are planning to upgrade to IP cameras in the next couple years, coax is all you need.

Nobody can for see the future, things may change by then.

[Soundy 1]

and the fact that pulling two different types of cable together can be a real hassle,

 

Do you normally run power over Cat5? If so, at what length runs do you normally experience power loss?

Yup... my normal wiring scheme is:

Blue pair for video

Orange pair for DC+/AC hot

Green pair for DC-/AC neutral

Brown pair for data/spare

 

Haven't yet had any power problems. Of course, we don't use cheap IR cameras, so power demands tend to be minimal (I think the VCM-24VFs are a whopping 160mA or something). Most of the cameras we use are dual-voltage as well, so we normally use 24VAC supplies.

 

Longest runs with this setup have been in the 200'+ range.

[Soundy 1]

Soundy... Do you guys pull plenum cable? if you don't your lucking box of cat5 plenum is $400 and rg-59 + 18/2 is alot more.

We only use plenum cable when code requires it. Not only is it more expensive, it's a pain to work with, as the jacket tends to be really stiff and brittle (Cat5 *and* coax).

 

I don't know offhand what our wholesale price is for it, but looking at a local retailer, they list:

Cat5e PLENUM 1000' - $276

Cat5e RISER shielded 1000' - $166

Cat5e RISER 1000' - $89-$109 depending on the color

 

Cat5e + RG6quad Siamese 500' - $178

 

RG6 1000' - $89

RG6U Quad 1000' - $128

RG59 + 18/2 Siamese 500' - $158

 

They don't list straight RG59U in bulk, but they do have it at 40c/ft.

 

Not finding a listing for straight 18/2 either, other than as speaker wire...

 

http://www.rpelectronics.com/wire-cable-management/cable-bulk

[Soundy 1]

rg59 siamese. you have short runs. Or RG6 if you can find it and afford it (not cattv cable)

unless you are planning to upgrade to IP cameras in the next couple years, coax is all you need.

Nobody can for see the future, things may change by then.

Of course, if you DO pull all coax and then find yourself needing to go to IP later, you're faced with the prospect of either pulling new wire, or using Highwires or similar type devices to run ethernet-over-coax, at a cost of $100/camera or more (I think the last time we used the actual Veracity Highwires, they ran around $175 *each*, two required per camera).

 

There is the "promise" of HDcctv that runs uncompressed SDI video over "existing" coax. That promise has been on the books for about two years now, and the hardware is just starting to come to market. Reports thus far don't have it working very well on RG59 - no more 100' with any reliability.

[rory 0]

Of course, if you DO pull all coax and then find yourself needing to go to IP later, you're faced with the prospect of either pulling new wire, or using Highwires or similar type devices to run ethernet-over-coax, at a cost of $100/camera or more (I think the last time we used the actual Veracity Highwires, they ran around $175 *each*, two required per camera).

Most electricians charge around $25 per run here to pull wire, so could always just pull new wire if it came down to that, at say $1000 per IP camera compared to say $100 per CCTV camera ... $25 per run plus $200 for the cable is peanuts.