bpzle 0 Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) What professionals will help you with is not just selecting the right technology for your needs and budget... but ultimately by putting you in something that will give you the return on investment you are looking for. You may save more money in the long run by having professional, unbiased, honest, and committed help.... That's what a company like mine specializes in. No, this isn't a marketing ploy... there's lots of companies like this. Many contribute on a regular basis on this very forum. Some, even more experienced than myself. However, beware... they may be hard to find. Either on the internet or even in your local Yellow Pages. Someone calling themselves a "CCTV professional" does not make them one... You can still install the equipment yourself, that's not a problem. However, realize this isn't just a matter of finding the cheapest materials and doing it yourself... This isn't a matter of going to a hardware store and building your own fence in a weekend... That's the mistake most people make with CCTV.... I have found the vast majority of DIYers fall into one of these categories: A: are not honest with themselves and are probably never truly happy with their system. B: Are not as well skilled/ educated on the topic as they may think they are to even realize that their system is crap and a waste of money. C: People who truly NEED a solution. They don't have the time/ money to play around, and recognize the value of getting professional help. These people are generally happiest with the end result... However.... you also have your type D: of do-it-yourselfers (DIYers)... They love to play with technology, don't mind making mistakes. They have the time/ funds to make mistakes... There's a few of these DIYers floating around the forum right now that you need to pair up with, if you are a type D DIYer.... If you are in the market for CCTV, what type are you? If you are a professional in the field, what do you think of the topic and my opinions? This could turn out to be a great topic of discussion... if it does, anyone else think it should be a sticky thread? (edited to make a,b,c,d types bold) Edited January 11, 2011 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tomcctv 190 Posted January 11, 2011 +1 " title="Applause" /> " title="Applause" /> " title="Applause" /> Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VST_Man 1 Posted January 11, 2011 you forgot one more type; the person who calls the professional and USES that experience to "hawk" info on systems and equipment inorder to purchase and install. These types ALWAYS ask for technical info and/or equipment model info. I've even had current clients call and ask in this poor economy inorder to save. I don't and won't give out that info. When I began I did it by mistake but I've learned along the way; my experience is worth money. Pro or not? Never really looked at it that way. I've always organized myself to beat the competition with the best support and equipment for the money spent. Not every install warrants a MP camera........ Professinals in my opinion are those who know the market place and available equipment and also keep up-to-date with technology. In this biz that means you spend lots of money on testing demo stuff. I've seen my competition in the market place and some are good but most are "stuck" on a accepted technology for that area. After building a biz for 5 years now the most important part during and after hard economic times is the clients respect. That has and will carry any biz into long term health. I've got systems out there that have been running since day one without any issues and I am happy with that. to answer the question; I'll hire a Pro as long as the cost is not crazy and the equipment works. I actually started my biz based on quotes I received from "Professionals" when I needed a video system. I thought a 4 camera system installed for 5k was excessive................and after some research I was right. I can do it for half that and still make money. So my answer is my biz model...........get it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bpzle 0 Posted January 11, 2011 VST_Man: Welcome back! Yes I know the types of customers you speak of... I speak to/ try to avoid them on a regular basis! They have their place... In your opinion, could they perhaps also be "type D" people? Or do they warrant an entire new class... "E"? Were YOU perhaps once a former "type d"??? hmmmmm..... Come to think of it, did I used to be a "type D"???? ....hmmmm.......food for thought!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VST_Man 1 Posted January 11, 2011 I am a type A personality. I'd rather fight you than agree with you since I know I can take a pucnh better than the truth That group that hawks is not a concern to me anymore. Maybe not a group at all if the Professional accepts that they are there and not really a threat as long as they don't play the game. I can tell, within a couple of minutes of talking to a potiential client, if I am going to do the job. I've actually walked away from clients who "tell me" that I am too expensive and that I need to drop the price. I already know, based on marketing research, that I am the cheapest and best. Pull my chain and you can DIY or pay more. Thos type clients ALWAYS complain and ask for everything for free, whittle the cost of labor, wine about prices, and just waste my time. It's actually funny to see them stand there when I turn and walk away.......it's like I called the bluff and they know I'm not a push over.....oops! Welcome back? I've always been here...........check in a read every now and then. I've been "wasting" my time on learning Mikrtik and Ubiquiti radio's & technology. Just another tool in my chest now. I've actually created a small Wisp here to play with.....now I can talk MP cams, bandwidth, and technology required to get it there via wireless. ps...I'm not a group type guy, never have been! I like it up here in Idaho for a good reason. No neighbors to piss me off! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bpzle 0 Posted January 11, 2011 You are very wise my friend... I'm still being "there", doing "that"... I'll send a post card/ check when I get the t shirt. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SEANHAWG 1 Posted January 11, 2011 I thought a 4 camera system installed for 5k was excessive One of my customers told me today that one of his friends had paid 15k for their 4 cam system. I cant imagine why it would cost this much. But anyone who pay this much for a 4 camera system is crazy IMO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 11, 2011 I thought a 4 camera system installed for 5k was excessive One of my customers told me today that one of his friends had paid 15k for their 4 cam system. I cant imagine why it would cost this much. But anyone who pay this much for a 4 camera system is crazy IMO. back in the day $4-6K or so was normal for a 4 channel .. before the market got flooded with chinese gear still if you do 4 panos now and a big brand DVR .. like $800+ per camera end user price + $1500+ for the DVR .. plus labour plus accessories etc ... now $15K in this day and age .. well i guess it could be megapixel? huge megapixel or flir?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kccustom 0 Posted January 11, 2011 I love Doing it myself! and I have paid for the privilege! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scruit 0 Posted January 12, 2011 I'm definitely in the D category. I do it because I enjoy the technical challenge of getting different types of shots. My stuff is not critical and if I screw something up then so be it. I'm under no deadline. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bpzle 0 Posted January 12, 2011 LOL! Let me just make it clear.... there is NOTHING wrong with any of these types of people.... All just observations I've made... may not even be correct/ accurate. There's a place for all of them... I'll always try to help if I can, but it needs to make business sense too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bpzle 0 Posted January 12, 2011 I love Doing it myself! and I have paid for the privilege! LOL! That's hilarious on so many levels.... brilliant! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cglaeser 0 Posted January 12, 2011 I love Doing it myself! and I have paid for the privilege! That's me in a nut shell. But I don't know how I could have done it differently. Here's some simple examples. I needed a PIR capable of monitoring a foot path 320 yards from my house. Now, how much walkin' through the yellow pages do you think my fingers would have done to find an installer in my area who actually had experience in aiming one of these? I have a 50 W RayMax IR Illuminator. Local installers I have talked to have never even held one, let alone installed one. IP? What the heck is that? Port Forwarding? Is that when you mail something overseas via ship? There's a lot of knowledge on this forum, but the air gets pretty thin elsewhere. Best, Christopher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bpzle 0 Posted January 12, 2011 I love Doing it myself! and I have paid for the privilege! That's me in a nut shell. But I don't know how I could have done it differently. Here's some simple examples. I needed a PIR capable of monitoring a foot path 320 yards from my house. Now, how much walkin' through the yellow pages do you think my fingers would have done to find an installer in my area who actually had experience in aiming one of these? I have a 50 W RayMax IR Illuminator. Local installers I have talked to have never even held one, let alone installed one. IP? What the heck is that? Port Forwarding? Is that when you mail something overseas via ship? There's a lot of knowledge on this forum, but the air gets pretty thin elsewhere. Best, Christopher lol! i know what you mean. I live/ work in a pretty big market... you wouldn't believe the companies I compete against... Northern had a local IP Roadshow... One guy raised his hand and actually asked "what do you mean by router and switch." This "guy" had a shirt on for one of the largest CCTV installing companies in the area... wow... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soundy 1 Posted January 12, 2011 Love the definitions, bpzle... I think you've nailed it. you forgot one more type; the person who calls the professional and USES that experience to "hawk" info on systems and equipment inorder to purchase and install. These types ALWAYS ask for technical info and/or equipment model info. I've even had current clients call and ask in this poor economy inorder to save. I don't and won't give out that info. Most like that aren't DIYers though; they're gathering info to play the pros against each other and get bargain-basement quotes. to answer the question; I'll hire a Pro as long as the cost is not crazy and the equipment works. A more general thought: depending on where you live and local laws and building codes, a pro may sometimes be necessary, especially when it comes to things like electrical work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scruit 0 Posted January 12, 2011 you forgot one more type; the person who calls the professional and USES that experience to "hawk" info on systems and equipment inorder to purchase and install. These types ALWAYS ask for technical info and/or equipment model info. I've even had current clients call and ask in this poor economy inorder to save. I don't and won't give out that info. Most like that aren't DIYers though; they're gathering info to play the pros against each other and get bargain-basement quotes. Can you offer two quote levels? A simple quote with cam positions and generic specs is free, whereas a quote with specific hardware, lens settings and detail that took time to prepare would cost $100 (credited against the job if they go forward) I'll get competing quotes from contractors and I select based upon the rapport I develop with the contractor and the "vibe" I get from him or her, not he quote amount. Slimy sales approach is a deal-breaker. Down-to-earth normal guy who knows his stuff wins it every time. Having said that, I will NOT get a quote from a contractor with the intent to use that quote as a blueprint for a DIY install. That's like doing free consulting work... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bpzle 0 Posted January 12, 2011 I'll get competing quotes from contractors and I select based upon the rapport I develop with the contractor and the "vibe" I get from him or her, not he quote amount. Slimy sales approach is a deal-breaker. Down-to-earth normal guy who knows his stuff wins it every time. Having said that, I will NOT get a quote from a contractor with the intent to use that quote as a blueprint for a DIY install. That's like doing free consulting work... I like the way you think! Brilliant! That's kind of what I already do... I can usually judge character fairly easily and walk away if I need to. Hard to do over the net though... The biggest problem is not all people have the integrity you do. Judging character isn't fool proof... I've wasted endless hours quoting/ designing when as soon as they get what they need, they fall off the face of the planet and leave me high and dry. It's forced me to be a little more vague in quotes... which can be a good thing too as it allows for wiggle room on equipment. A lot of the times, needs/ customer requests change when I finally get to roll up my sleeves and get into the project... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bpzle 0 Posted January 16, 2011 C and Ds can make great customers by the way! Not self promoting... I'm just saying. PM me if you'd like a list of the companies I know of in your area that best suit you... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sawbones 0 Posted February 9, 2011 I'm a Type-D. I can't help myself... I'm a geek... I have to get in there and play with it. I want to understand how it works, and what I can make it do. I had a simple Axis 4-camera system in my house... but after a particularly heinous incident (where I discovered my neighbor was a violent felon), I plunged into the CCTV realm as part of an overall home-security upgrade. We replaced locks, reinforced doors, put mylar on the windows... and I started looking at my home with a much more sinister eye. Not for my own sake... but for my family. I realized that I had to do much more than four cameras would provide... and began to explore higher-end analog cams, and eventually got into IP cameras. I have a computer and networking background, so putting the architecture together was relatively simple. The hard part was the visual side of it. I'm not any kind of photographer, and didn't understand F-stops, Lux ratings, shutter speeds, lenses, FOV, or any of that stuff. That's where the learning curve was steepest for me. I have another career in an unrelated field... so when friends see my system (and it's usually pretty jaw-dropping when they see what it can do), they ask me if I can do the same for them. The answer is inevitably "no." I don't have the time... and my personal system was a two-year project for me. What I can do is advise them of what they might need, and who is giving them a fair deal for what they're buying. If somebody is stealing the fillings out of their teeth, while at the same time installing crappy hardware, I'll be the first to tell them that. I often send people to a professional... because even after all the experimentation I've done, there are still things I'm learning. Unfortunately, in the process of referring people to alarm/CCTV companies, I also sometimes find that I'm way ahead of the guy they send out to bid the job. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bpzle 0 Posted February 9, 2011 Good post bones! I know what you mean about "the other guys" I don't know everything, but I loose bids to less knowledgable, experienced, and those with less integrity all the time... It doesn't bother me though. I know they'll screw up, and in time I'll gain that lost business back and then some! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cglaeser 0 Posted February 9, 2011 Unfortunately, in the process of referring people to alarm/CCTV companies, I also sometimes find that I'm way ahead of the guy they send out to bid the job. I know exactly where you are coming from. Last week I gave two hour presentation/Q&A for the homeowners association. I prepared a two-page outline that covered a range of security topics including home security vulnerabilities and suggestions on what to do about them. And, while I probably know more about security cameras than anyone who will come to their house, I'm not an alarm/camera installer. Many of them come to me for advice on what to ask their installer, and that is certainly a big help. As for my own security system, it's way too high tech for the typical installer. I know there are installers that know a great deal about alarms and cameras and all the glue that holds it together, and some are on this forum, but that is the exception rather than the rule. Plus, I do enjoy designing and building things myself. Best, Christopher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted February 9, 2011 As for my own security system, it's way too high tech for the typical installer. I know there are installers that know a great deal about alarms and cameras and all the glue that holds it together, and some are on this forum, but that is the exception rather than the rule. Plus, I do enjoy designing and building things myself. I doubt its so much these days that they cant do it, well okay some perhaps, but most clients just cant afford to pay for them to do it for them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cglaeser 0 Posted February 9, 2011 I doubt its so much these days that they cant do it, ... I'll take that bet. I just finished soldering the wiring harness for an Inovonics RS232 Receiver to mate it with a PC and now I'm installing the SDK in Visual Studio 2010 so I can develop a custom interface. But it's good to know that if I have any questions on how to debug C# I can always come here and get help. Best, Christopher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted February 9, 2011 I doubt its so much these days that they cant do it, ... I'll take that bet. I just finished soldering the wiring harness for an Inovonics RS232 Receiver to mate it with a PC and now I'm installing the SDK in Visual Studio 2010 so I can develop a custom interface. But it's good to know that if I have any questions on how to debug C# I can always come here and get help. Why would you come here to ask questions about C#? Thats what they have Programming forums for SDK tells you what to do, soldering is not rocket science, its not that people CANT do it, they dont get PAID to do it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
