bpzle 0 Posted January 23, 2011 PS. The Bahamas is not in the Caribbean. LOL! You caught me... my geography isn't what it should be. At least give me credit because you knew what I meant??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bpzle 0 Posted January 23, 2011 As for silly .. $15, $100, $15 compared to $100 .. single plug, Big Metal Box, single plug compared to Big Metal Box - when both properly installed just as safe - though either without a high voltage regular are not protected. Sorry... I missed your point and probably what you're trying to say... However, short of the obvious and notorious retarded installer... I don't really see how an "installation" has ANY affect on the design and electronic theory behind using a fused power supply box vs hardwiring everything directly to one big, unprotected wall wart.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 23, 2011 If you're that proud of your country start saying better things about it! Don't just defend it every now and then! I've formed most of my opinions based on what I've heard you talk about that place... No need to, this isnt a tourism forum. I only responded with facts. We DO have alot of problems though, but that has nothing to do with ME using a 1.5ma power supply. I was in Dominican a while back... Outside of the resort compounds, I saw endless numbers of shacks. Extreme poverty... poorly constructed buildings... no legal economy outside of tourism.... This isnt the Dominican Republic. Sure, some of the things I buy are Chinese... but the quality control/ design is what I REALLY care about. China pumps out some good things every now and then... but it generally has to be something simple or have VERY strict quality control. Fuses are fuses in my opinion... Throw in one more measure of safety and everybody wins. Safety first! I agree safety first always, but that has nothing to do with using a plug in adapter versus a cheap distributed box - they both have either a fuse or a PTC or something - but that doesnt mean the cameras wont get damaged, and hence the use of a high voltage regulator - most people down here have those already especially businesses. There are other reasons to use a good distributed box though, but when you weigh the chance of getting jobs to pay for food, or not getting the jobs, especially if its only a couple low resolution cheap chinese cameras (as are most OEM in the US), then its not a difficult decision. Instead of a 500GB HDD they get a 320GB HDD, its $40 cheaper. Instead of the DVR with HDMI and Alarm I/O, they get one without that, $40 cheaper, and one of the biggest whoppers instead of a $100 box they get a $15 adapter - if in some rare instance a brown out does get through the VR then its only $15 to replace. Its simple really as it all adds up (especially when adding 45% duty to some of that) - talking about budget clients that cant even afford the cheapest thing you throw at them to begin with, and lets face it CCTV is not a necessity. For 10 years Ive done it "your" way using the most expensive gear I could get my hands on, made in USA or Canada (least they claim), using the biggest baddest distributed isolated fused power supplies from Altronix, didnt make money cause you know time as customs duty is added to all that its double the price landed and even more for the client and still they are just OKAY products that still go bad ... time to make money. If it means doing 1000 cheap jobs and work for peanuts then so be it, all those peanuts add up - and yes they will still be installed PROPERLY and SAFELY. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 23, 2011 As for silly .. $15, $100, $15 compared to $100 .. single plug, Big Metal Box, single plug compared to Big Metal Box - when both properly installed just as safe - though either without a high voltage regular are not protected. Sorry... I missed your point and probably what you're trying to say... However, short of the obvious and notorious retarded installer... I don't really see how an "installation" has ANY affect on the design and electronic theory behind using a fused power supply box vs hardwiring everything directly to one big, unprotected wall wart.... Perhaps Ive never used a "wall wart". Every plug in adapter ive used IS protected to an extent, where when it DOES get hit, it stops right there. With a brown out even the fused box is not safe anyway. Hence the use of a high voltage regulator, without it NOTHING is safe. Once again, we are plugging everything into a high voltage regulator - without that we would be changing the entire distributed box every other day as well, not to mention the DVR or at the least the hard drive. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bpzle 0 Posted January 23, 2011 Rory, Points taken. So, back to topic... You think homeboy should hack a computer PSU to power his 8-10 cameras? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 23, 2011 No .. that I see as a real hazzard (in my opinion) .. like what 10ams or more in one of those boxes.. computer power supplies arent something to play with, now those I HAVE seen catch fire before! But its up to him, if it catches fire its in his house and he hooked it up so only him to blame Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 23, 2011 Rory,Points taken. So, back to topic... You think homeboy should hack a computer PSU to power his 8-10 cameras? BTW I do give them an option on the 4 channel fused box though .. and explain the general benefits - 1 goes the rest are still up (unless the whole box goes), more amps, neater (connection inside a box) .. but most dont care. Heck Im even so blunt I tell them the cameras are cheap rubbish but give them a picture for next to nothing ... and ofcourse show them the CNBs as an option ... again most dont seem to care LOL. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birdman Adam 0 Posted January 23, 2011 I just dont see how the computer PSU is any more dangerous than an "Altronics" power supply, or even the simple wall-warts. They are all the same thing. They all use transformers, and two of them use voltage regulation circuits. I'd say the wall-warts are the safest because they are almost always fused, and only handle a small current. Try shorting out one, they don't do much! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bpzle 0 Posted January 23, 2011 In theory... yes.... but try drawing too high an amp for too long and have one fail. OR drop voltage for whatever reason and so the load draws more power to compensate.... that all makes heat. With enough heat you have fire. No, not all wall warts and power supplies are thermally/ overload protected... and even if they are I HAVE SEEN them fail. I've seen a factory supplied wall wart for a piece of equipment work for a couple years just fine and then what seemed like out of the blue almost take out a fairly new 5000 sq ft commercial building. Yes, that was worst case scenaro, but I have personally seen many PSUs fail for many different reasons. Having fuses (glass or resttable ones) protecting each channel or circuit is a good thing.... a REALLY good thing. Just flip open your breaker panel out in the garage and take a peak. Perfect world theories are one thing... but real world experience is always best. I don't care how you slice it... hacking a computer PSU is retarded. Lol I'm sorry I can't say it in a more politcally correct way... Burn your own house, that's fine I don't care. It may work great for a couple years...maybe 15 years. In my opinion its a ticking time bomb and I tried to warn you. At the end of the day, there's no better experience than your own. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tailbone215 0 Posted January 23, 2011 I just dont see how the computer PSU is any more dangerous than an "Altronics" power supply, or even the simple wall-warts. They are all the same thing. They all use transformers, and two of them use voltage regulation circuits. I'd say the wall-warts are the safest because they are almost always fused, and only handle a small current. Try shorting out one, they don't do much! It's probably not any more dangerous than any other switching PS designed for CCTV work. The issue is it is not recommended as each "channel" isn't fused or protected in some way. The other issue is most switching supplies are optimised to work under a certain minimum load. If you don't maintain minimum load you can have flakey crap happen. If you have a lot of expendable time and don't mind wasting money you can get yourself a fancy fuse block, housing, and whatever else you might need to get this to work safely. I would rather buy what is recommended and needed for the job so all I have to do is unbox, mount, and fire it up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tailbone215 0 Posted January 23, 2011 But we also have building codes to worry about. It's not just a safety deal, it's also a liability. Totally different way of thinking vs slapping up Chinese gear on to a poorly constructed pile of cinder blocks that may or may not last the next hurricane... At least that's what I gather by vacations to and reading your posts about the Caribbean.... I could be wrong? lol I think a lot of these places follow the Haitian building codes? They might be able to withstand a 250MPH wind, but will disintegrate when the ground starts rumbling. Most of these places never took into consideration earthquakes when building, they never had to. Haiti opened everyone's eyes to this. The US builds lots of crap housing, but they can withstand a moderate quake with minimal damage. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bpzle 0 Posted January 23, 2011 You make some good points bones..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soundy 1 Posted January 23, 2011 It's probably not any more dangerous than any other switching PS designed for CCTV work. The issue is it is not recommended as each "channel" isn't fused or protected in some way. The other issue is most switching supplies are optimised to work under a certain minimum load. If you don't maintain minimum load you can have flakey crap happen. If you have a lot of expendable time and don't mind wasting money you can get yourself a fancy fuse block, housing, and whatever else you might need to get this to work safely. I would rather buy what is recommended and needed for the job so all I have to do is unbox, mount, and fire it up. ^This. In addition to all the rest, you also need to rig a momentary switch to trigger the power-on circuit... fine for experimentation, but a lot of screwing around for a production environment. One other MAJOR issue nobody's mentioned yet: unless you're using an old AT power supply, is that if you lose AC power, the thing won't fire back up by itself when the power comes back on. Really not desirable behavior for a security system. But there's nothing wrong with using one as a bench supply... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted January 23, 2011 You make some good points bones..... They must follow the haitian building codes in Florida, cause sure as heck not down here. When a hurricane comes through here, mostly just utilities damage, trees down, meanwhile Florida gets flattened. But they are correct, we dont get earthquakes here, we dont get blizzards either. Even if we did, Hurricane every 2 years here, earthquake every 10,000 years. Haiti builds with mud and clay, these here are concrete steel reinforced, all interior walls brick also.. Ive been through many hurricanes here, worst we have to worry about is tree falling on the roof. oh yeah and no power for a month but we used to that If we got an earthquake? We would have some damage surely .. but nothing like Haiti. Dont get me wrong, we have some shanty towns around here that get flattened even in the most basic hurricane but there are only a small number of those, and they are mostly all illegal haitians living in the bush. Those places dont even have electricity and the ones that do run a power cord from some other place to power up all their stuff .. hence the reason one of the shanty towns just had a fire and burnt to the ground. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tailbone215 0 Posted January 23, 2011 In addition to all the rest, you also need to rig a momentary switch to trigger the power-on circuit... fine for experimentation, but a lot of screwing around for a production environment. One other MAJOR issue nobody's mentioned yet: unless you're using an old AT power supply, is that if you lose AC power, the thing won't fire back up by itself when the power comes back on. Really not desirable behavior for a security system. Easily cured with a simple relay. I didn't think it worth mentioning. All of the shortcomings are way too easy to get around, but I do agree with everyone that it is best to get the right stuff the first time around. If I ever run out of options with the POTS stuff I can always fire up my rack mounted Lambda 0-50V 0-100A lab grade supply. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soundy 1 Posted January 23, 2011 But that's the point: pretty much everything required to make an ATX supply work for this purpose is a work-around. Most of them are fairly minor and the idea will work without them (like adding a fused breakout board). Without a reliable way to trigger a restart after a power loss, though, it's pretty limited for the purpose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
camerasguy71 0 Posted January 24, 2011 Anything can be made to work, Its just depends on how hell bent someone is on doing it. If you time is worth nothing the options are limitless. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soundy 1 Posted January 24, 2011 Anything can be made to work, Its just depends on how hell bent someone is on doing it. If you time is worth nothing the options are limitless. Well put Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bpzle 0 Posted January 24, 2011 Anything can be made to work, Its just depends on how hell bent someone is on doing it. If you time is worth nothing the options are limitless. Well put Lol can I make that my signature? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
