Converting to LED lights is fouling up all my outdoor cams

[sequoia 0]

I believe this topic will start becoming much more prevalent in the near future as LED fixtures get more popular.

 

I am currently converting some metal halide and compact fluorescent lights to LED fixtures. The LED fixtures use a fraction of the wattage, and when you have a lot of them and they burn all night long it is a cost issue.

 

Apparently the cameras like the fluorescent and metal halides just fine, but get easily "washed out" by the LED lights if the light is concentrated at all. I have some pix I will try to crop up and post here in the future, but as of right now my conversion to LED lights might become endangered if I can't work out the issues with the cams.

 

Question- the fixtures are available in cool white and warm white. Has anyone seen a difference in fluorescent light performance (using cams) between the two?

 

Thanks.

[bryceb 0]

I've heard of the different color temperatures (the difference in degrees kelvin determines cool white or warm white) but I'm not sure how that affects the cameras settings.

 

Do you have access to both types of bulb?

 

I've been looking at using LED's and solar panels to provide security lighting as well, so I'd be interested to see if this is a common problem.

[mike_va 0]

I did a crude comparison:

 

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23506

[Birdman Adam 0]

I think the problem is not with the type of light emitted by the LED's, but rather how it is dispersed. In other words, incandescents throw out light rather evenly, many LED floods are too concentrated. This can easily white-out an illuminated area.

 

Looks like LED's are not perfected yet - they still need a little tweaking to get the output shape and level exactly the same as incandescents.

 

Another thing that may be going on here - incandescent bulbs turn on/off (more like bright/dim) 120 times per second, (naturally they follow the frequency of the AC power). Most of these bulbs convert AC into DC that still goes on/off many times a second, or actually convert the AC to pure DC to feed to the LEDs. Alternatively, the LEDs may be pulsed at a higher rate than 60Hz, like maybe in the low kHz range. Could be interpreted as brighter by cameras.

[sequoia 0]

Yes, I see a dramatic difference just between your 8w LED and 11w LED.

 

I'm using either 28w or 56w LED. The 28w LED had a 20 deg beam, and it washed out anything I pointed it at. The 56w had a 40 deg beam, and depending on adjustment I could get a moderately acceptable result. (Had to point it to a wide open space.)

 

So the good news is that LED's can save money on electric bills. But then go spend all that and maybe more to reconfig all your cams.

[cglaeser 0]

I think the problem is not with the type of light emitted by the LED's, but rather how it is dispersed.

 

I agree. It's not the color, it's the throw. You might have better success with lights that have a large number of surface mount LEDs arranged in many directions.

 

Best,

Christopher

[mike_va 0]

Yes, I see a dramatic difference just between your 8w LED and 11w LED.

FWIW, that flood is mounted pretty high up maybe 16 ft.

[sequoia 0]

OK I have some pics. Not sure if I can upload them but I will try. The first set is primarily lit with a 96W compact fluorescent twin tube fixture. (There is a secondary fixture, identical, outside of the picture but not adding a great deal of light.)

 

The second pic is a 28w LED fixture with a 20 degree spot focus. I was hoping to spot light the wall, signage, and equipment with enough light throw or light spillage elsewhere for the cams to work. NOT !!

 

 

[cglaeser 0]

The first image was taken with daylight and the second images was taken at night. For a better comparison, take both images at night.

 

Best,

Christopher

[rory 0]

well i love my dusk to dawn and not about to replace it with some measily little LED

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KE9f8Z3bjs

[sequoia 0]

If you are commenting on my images, they were taken about 5 minutes apart, both at night.

 

A dusk to dawn light is great. But what happens when you have many of them, adding up to thousands of watts of them, burning 10+ hours, 365 days per year? The LED's start becoming attractive.

 

Energy savings is one issue. So is bulb and ballast replacement.

[rory 0]

I installed Raymax white LEDs for a client .. never again .. the price is WAY too much and the light output is not close to IR or a dusk to dawn.

 

I dont know, I havent replaced my dusk to dawn bulb or photo sensor in 10 years now.

 

In any event, Im only talking about 1 in my case

[cglaeser 0]

If you are commenting on my images, they were taken about 5 minutes apart, both at night.

 

Thanks for the correction.

 

Best,

Christopher

[sequoia 0]

I did neglect to mention that the landscaped area in the background of the brighter pic was lit with a 250w metal halide on the face of the building. I think this is what caused the confusion. So, although there was a dramatic change to the lighting in the foreground from the change from fluor to LED, there was also a change to the lighting in the background. I didn't think about the effect of that at the time.

 

Had I considered that, I would have re-tested with the background lighting on so that both shots were equal except for the change in the foreground. But, given the results so far, I think the "spot focus" 20 deg LED would still be problematic. I have returned it now and have ordered replacement LED fixtures that have a 360 deg dispersal. I didn't really want ceiling fixtures, but considering camera performance I think I need to broaden out the LED focus as much as possible.

[cglaeser 0]

I did neglect to mention that the landscaped area in the background of the brighter pic was lit with a 250w metal halide on the face of the building. I think this is what caused the confusion. So, although there was a dramatic change to the lighting in the foreground from the change from fluor to LED, there was also a change to the lighting in the background. I didn't think about the effect of that at the time.

 

The camera is trying to determine the best exposure based on the lighting of the entire scene. If you change the lighting of a large area in the background, that can have significant impact on the selected exposure. If the background is darkened, it will likely compensate by increasing the exposure, thus overexposing the foreground even more. If you had done the testing with the same lighting in the background, the LED may have faired better in the comparison.

 

That said, I agree with your decision to get a different throw. It's not the color of the light that is causing problems; it's the narrow beam vs omni.

 

Best,

Christopher

[CortezLoetz 0]

I would have re-tested with the background lighting on so that both shots were equal except for the change in the foreground. But, given the results so far, I think the "spot focus" 20 deg LED would still be problematic.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Guest

[survtech 0]

I agree with the other posters. There is a huge difference between spot and flood when lighting any area. Since CCTV cameras tend to exaggerate differences in light levels, the camera will tend to kick up the gain for dark areas and wash out the lighter areas with narrow (spot) beams. Switching to a wider flood will more evenly light the area but at a somewhat lower level in each section. Still, that might eliminate the problem. It will also depend on each camera's capabilities.

 

In my experience, lighting should match lens FOV. If you have a wide angle lens, you need to use wide angle lighting to evenly light the area. You can use narrow angle lighting for more distant areas if you are zoomed in on them. Also, the lights should be mounted near the camera (or vice versa). Aiming a camera at a light source is a sure way to create problems viewing a scene.

[Ken Layton 0]

Since this thread was first started, there have been some improvements in LED bulbs. It might be worth testing some newly manufactured bulb models to see what they look like with security camera applications.

 

I wonder if a person were to contact the bulb manufacturers and mention the problems and concerns when using LED bulbs with security cameras?