Panasonic WV-CP480

[Cooperman 0]

originally posted by sjmaye:

Can you tell me what benefits there are with going to C mount and going up to 2/3" or 1" formats?

 

Firstly, in general, C mount optics are better corrected, and often far higher resolution than their CS mount equivalents.

 

The optical performance of all lenses falls away as you move towards the edge of the image, or to put it another way, the centre portion of the image will always present the highest resolution.

 

Now if you select larger format lenses which produce images far bigger than the CCD (for example a 2/3" lens on a 1/3" camera), the best optical performance in the middle is exactly what is imaged by the CCD; the lower resolution parts of the image (at the edges) are not picked up by the CCD.

 

If you use a 1/3" CS mount lens on a 1/3" camera, at maximum aperture it is often possible to see the problem in lack of edge definition.

 

To do a test perhaps using a wide angle lens (either manual or auto iris 4mm on 1/3"), with the iris set to maximum (e.g. f1.2 or f1.4) point the camera at an object and focus with the object exactly in the middle of the screen.

 

Gently twist the camera so that the object moves towards the edge of the screen, and you should see a noticeable difference in sharpness. If the change is very slight and the picture looks crisp across the imager, then you've got a reasonably good lens. If it isn't ... then you haven't

[G22 0]

sjmaye... where abouts are you getting the CP480? I am considering getting the same one myself in the future (WV-CP484). I am looking for decent end-user pricing from an online store. Thx.

Edited June 22, 2005 by Guest

[G22 0]

I am also curious as to how decent the 'auto back focus' feature be.

[sjmaye 0]

sjmaye... where abouts are you getting the CP480? I am considering getting the same one myself in the future (WV-CP484). I am looking for decent end-user pricing from an online store. Thx.

 

I want to order the camera and lens at the same time. I bought the viewfinder that Rory told me about. I need to get up the in cherry picker to get a view from the point the camera will mount in order find out the correct focal length.

 

As soon as I have that I will place the order. Probably tomorrow.

 

One question for all- Are the Tamron IR sensitive lenses that much better at enhancing night time illumination without specific IR lighting? I was planning on a Computar, but will take any help I can with aiding low light sensitivity.

[MetzLyov 0]

Cooperman, great observation and technical explanation of higher rated cameras and lenses... very well put together..

 

Sjmaye - my suggestion, keep away from Tamron lenses... You will be very dissapointed when using with high end camera like CP484... Between Computar, Tokina, Cosmicar, Canon and Fujinon, you have excellent quality lenses available for high end camera like CP484...

 

Levon

[sjmaye 0]

Sjmaye - my suggestion, keep away from Tamron lenses... You will be very dissapointed when using with high end camera like CP484... Between Computar, Tokina, Cosmicar, Canon and Fujinon, you have excellent quality lenses available for high end camera like CP484...

 

Levon

 

I ordered yesterday with Computar lens. Thanks for all the help!

[MetzLyov 0]

Good choice...

 

Levon

[Cooperman 0]

Steady on MetzLyov,

 

Much more of this and even I'll begin to believe I know what I'm talking about, and we can't have that can we

[MetzLyov 0]

What's up Coop?? Besides this camera and their high end CL924, not much of anything else is worth from Pano...

 

Levon

[Cooperman 0]

Hey Metz,

 

I think the last time I used Panosonic gear, they'd just introduced their new Extended Red Newvicon tubed camera, and changed their open reel time lapse over to a VHS cassette machine

 

I can't put my finger on it, but on this side of the pond, in recent years Panasonic just haven't managed to secure the market share they should.

 

Personally, I don't know how good their new DIII cameras are, but if they don't get their act togethor, particularly on the marketing side, they will lose out.

 

How competitive are Pano. Stateside?

[MetzLyov 0]

Coop,

 

I have used (and still do) Pano equipment for a very long time.. Do not really care for their procedures on handling warranty related issues nor happy with their pricing, but then again, they think they are the best.... I DO NOT THINK SO...

 

Thinking the way they did caused a major collapse of their business. They shut down their New Jersey and Seattle distribution centers and are still moving somewhere close to Chicago. There was a major shake up of the upper management, which basically got fired and was replaced by less experienced and I am not sure what is worse...

 

All I know is that if someone likes Panasonic, they always buy Panasonic and there is no rime or reason that can be justified.

 

Their DIII are better than DII (at least that is what our internal tests shows), however the Bosch latest cameras are priced better and more flexible and better picture quality in a very harsh environments (lighting conditions). I like their latest DVRs and their PTZ domes, however from the price stand point, well...

 

Pano is not competitive, as they keep driving the prices higher. I think they will be the first company that will start selling direct (they already have been cought doing it). According to some reports that I read, they have been testing this concept for a while, but are afraid to implement, because they do not know how the market will react.... They want to become the Dell Computers of the Security market by selling direct.... GOOD LUCK WITH THEM!

 

Levon

[qman 0]

I tend to disagree with you Levon. I have tried Computar, Fujinion, OEM'S, even Pano lenses, and I have had very good luck with them, even using a low end toshiba 6200n, it makes the camera look like a million bucks at night.

[C7 in CA 0]

I think they will be the first company that will start selling direct (they already have been cought doing it). According to some reports that I read, they have been testing this concept for a while, but are afraid to implement, because they do not know how the market will react....

Levon

 

Is there a certified pano cctv dealer program? And do you mean selling direct to certified dealers or just sell to anyone?

 

This is interesting because they are very strict about sales in their business telephone division. I have a supplier who is a pano wholesaler. He can't sell to anyone less then a certified pano dealer. I can't qualify as a dealer without a storefront.

[rory 0]

I think they will be the first company that will start selling direct (they already have been cought doing it). According to some reports that I read, they have been testing this concept for a while, but are afraid to implement, because they do not know how the market will react....

Levon

 

Is there a certified pano cctv dealer program? And do you mean selling direct to certified dealers or just sell to anyone?

 

This is interesting because they are very strict about sales in their business telephone division. I have a supplier who is a pano wholesaler. He can't sell to anyone less then a certified pano dealer. I can't qualify as a dealer without a storefront.

 

maybe different companies like how samsung has various different companies that sell under the samsung name ..?

[rory 0]

I think all the big boys are overpriced, I mean they all have their pros and con products, not everything they make is great, none of them. Bosch with their 1/2" camera basically just matched Panos 1/2" camera "price" .. someone needs to drop the price and help us poe peeps that need some decent products .. they base their pricing on the prices from other manufacturers is all ... something needs to change ..

 

Ofcourse most of the big boys products are basically alot better than the OEM stuff ... now i said "most" .

[Cooperman 0]

Interesting MetzLyov, you've probably hit the nail on the head; Panosonic have always worked on the basis of being the best, but unfortunately, as good as the products may be, in this day and age there needs to be more.

 

I gave up years ago trying to get product information from Pano. even though I have to admit I used to have a soft spot for their products. Any company that still thinks they can build a business purely on a brand based reputation, is heading for disaster.

 

Certainly a number of manufacturers are looking carefully at ways to maximise their returns, and in some cases that will mean supplying direct to installers and end users. I recall reading recently that Samsung is planning a concerted direct supply strategy for the U.S. domestic market; now that should be one to watch with interest.

 

Here in the U.K., manufacturers like Merit Li Lin will set up 'Direct' operations, cutting out the distributors altogethor, which given the pace of market development here, is quite possibly the way to go.

 

I can't see Matsu****a going for parallel brands based around Panasonic. Some years back, didn't they also use to market as National in the States?

 

The obvious point which is often overlooked, is whilst household names are frequently not price competitive with their far eastern rivals, their R & D costs are significantly higher (as indeed are their overall operating costs), and consequently their quality and reliability status is generally in a class of its own. You pays yer money and takes yer choice.

 

Also the 'culture' within for example Japanese companies is very very different from let's say European manufacturers. Mind you, if stories are to be believed, possibly the most customer centred company that immediately springs to mind would be .... Pelco.

 

Brand loyalty is a wonderful thing, but only so long as it continues to pay the corporate wages.

[cctv_down_under 0]

I must say I agree with a lot of those posts, just a few points though..

 

The only thing I do not like with our 474 (same with the 480 series no doubt) is that I have to keep going outside with my laptop connected via WiFi to the DVR in order to access and change the camera settings (which seem to be very plentiful and not for the average user with Panasonic cams like these). The only other way (and most convenient) is to have Panasonic hardware with PS-DATA capabilities. I believe what is needed is something like a Panasonic Matrix Switcher, Data Multiplexer, or DVR + a controller like the WV-CU360C.

 

With the Bosch cameras you dont have to use their DVR to configure and it is bidirectional and you can buy a simple tool for it.

 

Rory, I dont know where you get your prices man, but you need to shop around, i have not found a listing here or anywhere else putting Bosch cameras anywhere near Pana for price, you mentioned $800 for the 1/2" well there has been plenty of links at $515 and lets face it not veryone is going to need the 1/2"

 

As for Pana.. man awesome products, the SD3 is an excellent camera and the autobackfocus adjuster that moves the CCD inside the camera is an excellent feature, they also have dynamic noise reduction and a lot of other features, but Pana WAS the best and therfore had a pricetag to match, but now Bosch has more features and better results and a much better price tag and with 3yr warranty... hay yes I work for Bosch but i would have said that no matter whom i worked for, their cameras are excellent and I would have to say Ikegami is now better than Pana, Bosch have only had Phillips for short time and the XF was the result.. not bad at all.

 

As for lenses.. I love Computar they are excellent lenses, so are Tamron actually anything using Japanese Glass is excellent but be wary... F Stop is not all that as F stop is purely a measurement, it is important the note made by coops about the abhorations on edges of badly ground glass, this is why aspherical lenses are much better as they tend to be ground with less abhorations and therfore can concentrate more accurate light onto the sensor.. Also keep in mind the T Factor.. this is the rating the lens has for accurately distributing the light that bounces inside the lens.. letting light in is math.. directing the light to the CCD is all about qulaity of machining and quality of material..

 

You will see benefits of using a cut filter so long as a dummy filter or a movable sensor can be implemented to allow a correct field of view to be unchanged, using corrected IR lenses will also help, but the best benefit of the rmeovable cut filter is that you can use IR light.

 

Keep in mind if a camera has a IR Filter .. then it is simply a colour camera... they all have them.. not all are removable though.

[MetzLyov 0]

Herm,

 

What do you disagree on? Is it my assessment on a one lens manufacturer or the Pano camera?

 

Coop, I agree with your assessment. I also think Pano is heading to disaster and I hope they are still around few years from now...

 

There is not much difference between Pano distribution and "certified delaer" pricing... Few percentage points with much bigger headacks as a distributor vs. a dealer.

 

Here is a very interesting question. Since we already established that Pano pricing is higher than normal compared to other brand manufacturers, what do you think CP484 should be priced as?? How about their normal CP244 color camera or better yet, their high end CL924 series? What about their robust mini-domes with CP484 built in? It is easy to critisize about the price, but where do you think it should be and lets be realistic here? Will it be 5%, 10% or even lower price or is it something else?

 

Levon

[sjmaye 0]

Hey guys, I 'm back.

 

I received the camera and lens and got it in place Thursday. Just to be sure, the actual model is WV-CP484 (24volt model). Here's a brief run down for results-

• * We are comparing the images against a Panasonic WV-BL204
   
  Daylight-
  Clarity of picture is not a lot different accept it is color. Based on some of your responses in other posts I think the distance is a factor. Both are looking at images from around 100' - 200' away.
   
  Color is good, but then again I have no basis for comparison.
   
  Nightime-
  Checked the recorded images from the DVR over night.
   
  Absolutely amazing! The picture with existing parking lot lighting was almost as bright as daytime. This was even with the camera still in color mode (forgot to set it to automatically change to B&W). I can only wonder how good it will be in B&W.
   
  The WV-BL204's were so dark we could see nothing at night.
  

 

A couple questions-

 

• Now I love the camera, but since I need to buy between 3-7 more I can't be putting out $500+ (with lens) a shot for each. Any ideas on similar performance models that cost less?
   
  The issue of viewing from ~150' away. Can someone again explain why even with a telephoto lens why the image will not be as clear as a camera positioned at 25'-50'?

 

FYI- In the manufacturing plant I work we have needed an electrical engineer to help maintain the information systems and large industrial equipment. I have hired a young man fresh out of school. Part of his initial training is to develop this DVR/camera system. He, like me, is no security expert. Just plain manufacturing folk. I told him about you guys and this forum. He has registered as EEraines. He is reading extensively to learn more about CCTV and security.

 

The reason I tell you all this is he will be posting about this same DVR/parking lot project. I love learning about this stuff and am a little reluctant to turn it loose to him, but I will. I will try to curb my enthusiasm and keep any double posting to a minimum.

 

Again, thanks for all the help!

[MetzLyov 0]

There is another solution that should be more cost effective - BOSCH LTC 0495/20 and give you equal or even better picture, plus better warranty procedures and least amount of problem, etc...

 

Which lens are you using for this 150' distance??? The type of lens you use can say a lot, as the picture that you want has a lot to do with the lens. With a great cameras from Bosch and from Pano, you should use the best lenses and try not to go cheapo...

 

PM me and I can help!

 

Levon

[sjmaye 0]

Which lens are you using for this 150' distance??? The type of lens you use can say a lot, as the picture that you want has a lot to do with the lens. With a great cameras from Bosch and from Pano, you should use the best lenses and try not to go cheapo...

 

I bought what most people here were recommending. It is a Computar Varifocal 5~50mm f1.3 1/3" Auto Iris Lens. The 150' is an approximation. I never actually measured it off.

[MetzLyov 0]

Chances are that you are using Computar TG10Z0513FCS lens... Looks like aperture ratio starts 1.3 (sometimes referred to F-Stop). If your lens has lower F-stop, your picture quality will increase specailly at night (lens will allow more light to pass)... Computar is limited in 1/3" lens selections beyond 50mm, unless if your go with their motorized lenses, and then again, the price will go up exponentially...

 

You can use 5.0mm - 100.0mm lens from Kowa. Part number is #LMVZ510A-P that gives you much stronger zoom capability and it is more flexible lens for your application...

 

Levon

[cctv_down_under 0]

You will probably find that the reason your camera is out of focus is because of back focus, did you focus the camera at night or during the day with a neutral density filter, night time will open the iris and therefore will adjust the focal point making it fuzzy and very slightly out of focus, and If your camera has a removable filter then it will alao affect the focal point as the adjustment of the filter will chnage the distance to the sensor.

 

Also make sure that if you have the cam in a housing that you put the lens flush against the glass of the housing or you could be casting reflctions or creating a scond lens and therefore adjusting your focal point, this is why flip top outside housings are usefull so that you can adjust the focus through the glass.

 

Nice choice of equipment but you could have tried the Bosch 495 at a much cheaper pricing, if you realy wantto be impressed go for a 620 cam and a 1/2" lens and you will be very surprised.. I can still see blue sky late at night when the sky is almost black on mine.

[Cooperman 0]

Just to clarify a couple of points.

 

A rock solid image produced by a quality telephoto at 150' will generally outperform a rock solid image produced by a wide angle lens at 25'.

 

The main reason is that the flatter perspective of a telephoto, tends to be less affected by inherrent optical distortions often found in wide angle lenses (such as barrel distortion).

 

I agree with CCTV_Australia about the loss of focus at night, due to the lens focus having been set during daylight hours. However, it is not necessarily as a result of the lens back focus not having been correctly adjusted. It is far more likely that the image has gone out of focus, simply because as the light level drops, the iris gradually opens, and the depth of field reduces. The original focus setting has therefore moved out of the 'zone of sharp focus' which was far longer when the iris was closed down during daylight.

 

Regarding built in filters, they can have an affect on focus setting, but only in so far as different frequencies of light, require different lens settings in order to be brought into sharp focus on the imager. That's why a readjustment has to be made between visible frequencies (even red and blue alone would require a slight shift in settings) and infra red such as 850nM.

[rory 0]

more than likely it is just darker in that area that it is focused far away .. not as much light in the image as the closer wider shots. Daytime should be clear though once it is focused properly.