Old People Fighting

[nifter53 0]

I've been asked to install 12 indoor domes and 2 outdoor cameras at on old folks home, apparently they fight a lot...

 

I normally sell exacq NVR's and IP/Megapixel cameras, but that's way over their budget.

 

I'm looking for some recommendations for a tried and tested solution, nothing fancy.

 

Indoor cameras need to be domes, no IR needed, no WDR needed, they cover common areas that have the lights on all day/night. 4mm fixed is fine. I may need 1 or 2 vari-focal. (4-10)

 

The outdoor cams need to have IR up to about 20-25'. Gets to -30c here.

 

As for the DVR, I'm open to either PC based or standalone. They have a capture cctv dvr at another location they seem to like.

 

Their only requirement is they need 1 month of storage and can view/playback the footage from the DVR directly and over the internet via a windows application.

 

 

Thanks for the suggestions!

[Soundy 1]

This may actually be an instance where a "big-box-store" package system would suffice, since they don't need uber-high quality or the ability to ID shady people at a distance

[nifter53 0]

The only downside to that is that the site manager can quickly do some price shopping to see how much $ I'm making. I'd prefer to purchase a system that they themselves couldn't go out and buy.

[ptzguy 0]

Hi nifter53,

 

Having installed cameras in 14 nursing homes(between 32 and 71 cams per install) the only thing I could recommend is purchasing cams with 520tvl+. Time after time all they wanted was to be able to see 'clearly' down corridors etc, so avoid quizzing them with poop loadsa questions.

An easy to use DVR would also be a great help, you may be training up a senior nurse that would scream if you mention as much as a 'mouse'.

I take it by your '$' sign you arent in the EU otherwise I could recommend a supply for your equipment.

So, just keep it basic, nice and simple, and be mr.nice they'll be nice with you! They're good at caring for people, not dealing with cables and complicated equipment.

Also, the owners know the other owners of the other homes so do a good job and you may be doing a few residential homes!!

G'luck.

[ak357 0]

I've been asked to install 12 indoor domes and 2 outdoor cameras at on old folks home, apparently they fight a lot...

 

I normally sell exacq NVR's and IP/Megapixel cameras, but that's way over their budget.

 

I'm looking for some recommendations for a tried and tested solution, nothing fancy.

 

Indoor cameras need to be domes, no IR needed, no WDR needed, they cover common areas that have the lights on all day/night. 4mm fixed is fine. I may need 1 or 2 vari-focal. (4-10)

 

The outdoor cams need to have IR up to about 20-25'. Gets to -30c here.

 

As for the DVR, I'm open to either PC based or standalone. They have a capture cctv dvr at another location they seem to like.

 

Their only requirement is they need 1 month of storage and can view/playback the footage from the DVR directly and over the internet via a windows application.

 

 

Thanks for the suggestions!

 

May be offer them Vivotek cam with Vivotek soft

( I never try Vivotek soft my self sorry) just idea

[nifter53 0]

For the camera I'm thinking either a speco dome or a generic korean (below)

 

SPECO ~$150

Resolution 550 lines

Illumination .5 lux

Format 1/3” format CCD sensor

Lens 3.6mm lens

Electronic Shutter 60-100,000m sec., 256 steps

Output Video output/BNC

Pick Up Device 1/4” image sensor interline transfer type 542 (H) x 492 (V)

S/N Ration Better than 50db

Sync System Internal Sync.

Consumption Current 80 mA

Gamma Correction 0.45

Operating Temperature 4°F to 131°F / 30 to 90% RH

Power Requirements Reg. 12V DC power supply (UL & CSA listed) included

Dimensions 4”Dia. x 2.5”H

Weight 10.5 oz.

 

 

GENERIC KOREAN ~$150

600TVL High-Res WDR Dome Camera

2.8mm~12mm Vari-Focal Lens

-. 1/3” SONY Super HAD CCD II

-. 600 TV Line Resolution

-. 2.8mm~12mm Vari-focal, Auto Iris Lens

-. 0.0001Lux (sens-up ×256) Day and Night Function

-. WDR Wide Dynamic Range (Long and Short Exposure)

-. True Waterproof (IP68) and Vandal Proof

-. Digital Zoom (x1~x10)

-. 3DDNR (3D Digital Noise Reduction)

-. LSC (Lens Shading Compensation)

-. DIS (Digital Image Stabilizer)

-. Controlled by OSD Menu with Privacy, Motion Detection

-. Easy Installation / 3-Axis

-. DC 12V / AC 24V Dual Power Only

 

 

And for the DVR...

 

Speco DVR16TL250 16 Channel Triplex DVR 240FPS 250GB HDD ~$1000

 

The Speco has lower "specs" than the generic, but I'm unclear if the generic would actually produce a better picture??

 

Anyone have experience with the generic ones vs the brand names?

 

BTW: everything is made in china anyway right....

 

Thanks again for the input!

[bpzle 0]

No to Speco

[ptzguy 0]

No to Speco

 

 

i dont know if you're talkin' aussie, canadian or singapore dollars there but the prices seem to be a bit high nifter, never heard of speco neither.

[bpzle 0]

I'm talking worldwide...

 

 

Say "NO" to Speco

[Soundy 1]

You could probably get CNB DBM-24VFs for the same price as the cameras you listed there, or even less... I've seen the VCM models (the vandal domes) go for as low as CDN$160 online; the DBMs are the plastic-case non-vandal indoor types and should be a fair bit less.

[nifter53 0]

I've read many good things about CNN here, but cant for the life of me find a Canadian distributor.

 

I called speco today and got a login to their demo DVR system. For the price it seemed to work just fine. As for their cameras...no experience.

 

If 150cad is high, what price range should I be near for basic domes and a 16 port DVR (with the mentioned specs)?

[rory 0]

Color cameras, need light - not sure you want Infrared, might worsen the old people's cataracts

 

Cheap 600TVL option for indoor dome:

CNB DFL-20s for fixed lens or CNB DBM-24VD for varifocal lens (not TDN, fixed IR Cut)

 

If you need to point it at a door entrance, check out:

CNB DBB-24VD (WDR, not TDN, fixed IR Cut)

 

They are simple to install and adjust, especially the DFL-20s, so you also cut your labour cost down ALOT.

 

Cheapest Color Dome I know of in North America, at least with a 1/3" CCD 3.6mm fixed lens and not totally rubbish, XTS-M42VP, not sold retail. They also have the IR version for just a little bit more. These are low res though, 420TVL and no IR cut (fine for indoors), selling like mad down here though.

 

 

For DVR, check out Dahua ... cheap and loaded with features, simple install.

Sold under Mace, Gen IV (Intellicam USA), XTSVideo, and a host of others.

 

Otherwise other DVRs that would work and cheap, Cantec (will see them on an online retail store, distributed by CRC, they are Korean DVRs and low priced), or similar to those, the CNB DVRs (these also sold under a host of other names, though CNB has their own custom software which is better than the original manufacturer's). I havent used the Cantec/CRC but read every line of their manual and specs and tested their CMS software .. are impressive for the price, and used another brand of the CNB DVRs.

 

Lots of products out there, these are just some I have either used or investigated.

BTW I import these from the US so they have to be cheap

[nifter53 0]

excellent, feedback from the man himself 'rory'.

 

So, I've taken your advice and found the following (below) retailers/distributors here in canada. Their selection seems limited (at least what they show online).

 

But I did find the following.

 

http://longtech.ca/phpcode/web/view_detail.php?product_id=1410

or

http://longtech.ca/phpcode/web/view_detail.php?product_id=1378

 

and

http://24vs.ca/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9&products_id=314

 

Funny thing, I only discovered this 24vs.ca site tonight while googling "CNB Canada". Oddly, their #1 selling camera is the speco CVC6146HR. LOL

 

I'll take everyone's advice and stay away though.

[rory 0]

Dont "have to" order from canada, there is a retailer/distributor in NY who has some of the best prices on CNB in North America .. and free ground shipping within the US at least (dont know about Canada) over $500 orders. That price in your link on the CNB is almost what I sell it for here in the Bahamas Retail!! We normally dont allow links to CCTV stores on the forums but their prices are so ridiculously high ..

 

Also the DH-DVR1604LE-A is the most common model and the one I have been using (well the 4 and 8 channel also). Only supports 1HDD though so if you want longer recording than a month or so would need the larger unit as you posted which holds 8HDD. I have a couple 32 channel Dahua's on the way, should be interesting, not real time, its the model inbetween, but still 7fps D1 (4Cif) each channel.

[ptzguy 0]

Just to compare prices, I would be buying the following stock for the install:

 

Internal domes, 520tvl, 3.6mm fixed lens £50 each

Internal domes, 520tvl, 2.5mm-11mm wide angle v/focal lens £70 each(where a wide angled view is needed i.e. where corridors meet)

Internal domes, 600tvl, 3.6-11mm v/focal lens £105 each(perhaps just 1 or 2 of these reception area, nurses station etc)

External 40m IR tube style cameras, 520tvl, choice of lenses £70-140 each

18.5" LCD monitor £100

19" LCD spot monitor(bnc input) £160

16ch DVR, 1Tb, Netviewer, D1 capable, choice of DVR's £450-700

 

Any thoughts on the above guys, how does it compare to across the pond??

All of the above would come with a 3yr manufacturers warranty and an excellent tech support team.

[Soundy 1]

There actual BRAND names on any of those cameras? Specs generally have little to do with actual quality.

[rory 0]

Just to compare prices, I would be buying the following stock for the install:

 

Internal domes, 520tvl, 3.6mm fixed lens £50 each

Internal domes, 520tvl, 2.5mm-11mm wide angle v/focal lens £70 each(where a wide angled view is needed i.e. where corridors meet)

Internal domes, 600tvl, 3.6-11mm v/focal lens £105 each(perhaps just 1 or 2 of these reception area, nurses station etc)

External 40m IR tube style cameras, 520tvl, choice of lenses £70-140 each

18.5" LCD monitor £100

19" LCD spot monitor(bnc input) £160

16ch DVR, 1Tb, Netviewer, D1 capable, choice of DVR's £450-700

 

Any thoughts on the above guys, how does it compare to across the pond??

All of the above would come with a 3yr manufacturers warranty and an excellent tech support team.

 

If it works, dont need 3 year warranty or tech support.

Also 520TVL is old now, should be at least 550+ if only for the other new features.

[ptzguy 0]

If it works, dont need 3 year warranty or tech support.

Also 520TVL is old now, should be at least 550+ if only for the other new features.

 

My customers often ask about aftersales, 3yr warranty and tech support sounds appealling to them especially when there's cowboys out there that give little or no aftersales support. Alot of customers feel at ease with an annual service contract, spending a day dusting down cameras and checking the health of a couple of HDD's is money for nothing!

Also a camera at £50 with 520TVL's is, in my opinion, good value for money and practical for the job in mind. If cost wasn't an issue 600TVL cams would be installed(with all the 'mod cons' and features), but then again if we all had a bottomless pit of money wouldn't we all have PTZ IP systems?!

 

If you read my posts guys you will know where I buy most of my gear, visit their website for all the spec's and info of the cams mentioned if you wish, I just wanted to compare prices without going to deep into it, thats all.

The cams are IR Labs with Sony CCD's(Chinese), good colour depth, I find Korean CCD's quite 'cold', bland and pale looking when it comes to internal applications. I havent heard of CNN or Speco or CNB etc, but then again we're miles apart.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Guest

[Soundy 1]

It's been said here many, many times: TVL is only a fraction of the "camera quality" equation, and frankly, it's been "fudged" and abused so much by cheap offshore manufacturers, it's nearly meaningless. I could show you even mid-grade 420TVL cameras that blow the doors off cheap-cheap 600TVL cameras under *all* conditions, not just with "perfect" lighting.

 

You get what you pay for in this business; that's a fact.

[ptzguy 0]

It's been said here many, many times: TVL is only a fraction of the "camera quality" equation, and frankly, it's been "fudged" and abused so much by cheap offshore manufacturers, it's nearly meaningless. I could show you even mid-grade 420TVL cameras that blow the doors off cheap-cheap 600TVL cameras under *all* conditions, not just with "perfect" lighting.

 

You get what you pay for in this business; that's a fact.

 

I agree with that statement Soundy too true. That's why we buy the products we know and trust and get repeat business as a result.

 

So, it's you doing the install Soundy, the customer wants an entry level system with clear pictures but there is a tight budget, there's quotes already in from other firms. What are you buying and for how much Soundy??

[Soundy 1]

So, it's you doing the install Soundy, the customer wants an entry level system with clear pictures but there is a tight budget, there's quotes already in from other firms. What are you buying and for how much Soundy??

We don't do "entry level". The customers who want cheap are the ones who want to nickel-and-dime you to death, want everything done "under warranty" (we've had six-year-old systems killed by lightning strikes, and they want to know if it's covered by warranty ), and demand the most attention, for the least amount of money.

 

We've had prospective customers tell us that they're going to go with the cheapest quote; we thank for them their time, and just walk away. What's the point in busting your hump to come in a few dollars cheaper with your good stuff, than some guy who's selling Chinese junk, putting in all the effort to make it work halfway-properly, and then having to deal with the irritated calls when the cheap doesn't live up to expectations? It's not worth the headache.

[ptzguy 0]

You're missing the point here entirely Soundy...

What would you install? or are you here just to criticise everybody's comments and opinions??

We would all like 'Samsung this' and 'Sony that' but it's got to be practical, do you really think a 'run of the mill' nursing home is going to spend 5, 6 or 7k on 8 cams and a DVR designed by NASA?!?

...and for your information 'entry level' does not mean cheap, nor does it mean buying the sh!te you see on ebay for pence, it means the basic, practical system required to do 'the job'. When a customer wants to see who's coming in and out of a doorway clearly, thats what he wants, he doesnt want to pay for equipment that will show and count the hairs on their a$$es!!

So... all that said what would you install?

Samsung SDC425's @$150??

Avermedia DVR $1500??

[Tailbone215 0]

You're missing the point here entirely Soundy...

What would you install? or are you here just to criticise everybody's comments and opinions??

We would all like 'Samsung this' and 'Sony that' but it's got to be practical, do you really think a 'run of the mill' nursing home is going to spend 5, 6 or 7k on 8 cams and a DVR designed by NASA?!?

 

I must say that Soundy is giving you sound advice, especially for what monetary value you are paying for it. I'm with him, install the proper equipment the right way the first time and charge accordingly. If your potential customer starts barking about your pricing in the proposal than you know this customer isn't right for you. When you start compromising and negotiating with a potential customer you have already signed your death sentence as this will ultimately bite you in the ass. Leave the hack jobs to the low-ballers and make your money by employing disaster recover cleaning up their mess. When I get a bad feeling about a potential customer I don't fight that feeling I put my tail between my legs and run like a scalded dog.

[bpzle 0]

Bones,

 

I'm glad you've made it and only do enterprise work now... No sarcasm intended.

 

However, I'm going to have to agree with ptzguy. Quality equipment (altough hard to find) at "Average Joe" kind of prices does exist. And no, you don't have to shop flea markets or wait at the docks for the slow boat from China. Just give me a call.

 

Bosch, Arecont, Avigilon, Vigil, (even CNB).... it all serves a purpose but it's not for everyone. Personally, I have to diversify my clientale just to eat. I wish I could get by on just one type of customer (yes, I also do enterprise)... But in this economy, I've found way to "get 'er done" for low prices to appeal to anyone. It is possible, and it can be a respectable business by anyone's sandards. Its a different path that you take, but it doesn't mean its the wrong way either.

 

I've gotten some of my biggest to-date jobs by getting referrals from the smallest of jobs. Its challenging, ever changing, and I like to know the entire market, not just a niche.

[ptzguy 0]

You're missing the point here entirely Soundy...

What would you install? or are you here just to criticise everybody's comments and opinions??

We would all like 'Samsung this' and 'Sony that' but it's got to be practical, do you really think a 'run of the mill' nursing home is going to spend 5, 6 or 7k on 8 cams and a DVR designed by NASA?!?

 

I must say that Soundy is giving you sound advice, especially for what monetary value you are paying for it. I'm with him, install the proper equipment the right way the first time and charge accordingly. If your potential customer starts barking about your pricing in the proposal than you know this customer isn't right for you. When you start compromising and negotiating with a potential customer you have already signed your death sentence as this will ultimately bite you in the ass. Leave the hack jobs to the low-ballers and make your money by employing disaster recover cleaning up their mess. When I get a bad feeling about a potential customer I don't fight that feeling I put my tail between my legs and run like a scalded dog.

 

Another one missing the point entirely, so what would you install and how much would it cost Tailbone???

Ireland and the UK are currently in a deep recession, not many shopping malls being constructed, not many large companies requiring a complete overhaul of existing systems.

Ask any rep/salesman in the security industry and they'll tell you the same thing over and over - too many companies competing for too little jobs... it's dog eat dog over here at the moment, and Tailbone my friend your tail would be forever between your legs.

I remember quoting jobs and itemising 200quid for this 200 quid for that 2k for this 2k for that...

these days you scrape 20euro off this, 50euro off that, do that at cost but make a little there - and you're still being told to 'fvck-off' 30 times a day.

PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY TO THROW AROUND ANYMORE, all that went with the celtic tiger, those that do have the money are still keeping a close eye on their wallet.

So, what would you install at what price Tailbone? - bearing in mind you would be massively outpriced and never get the job anyway!!