Old People Fighting

[Tailbone215 0]

Bones,

 

I'm glad you've made it and only do enterprise work now... No sarcasm intended.

 

However, I'm going to have to agree with ptzguy. Quality equipment (altough hard to find) at "Average Joe" kind of prices does exist. And no, you don't have to shop flea markets or wait at the docks for the slow boat from China. Just give me a call.

 

No job is to small. You seem to be missing the point. All I'm saying is if you have to deal with temperamental customers and/or install crap it will cost you more in the long run. I would rather walk away from a $5k job if it is going to cost me well above the allotted time, labor, and stomach lining dealing with nonsense. The resources wasted dealing with an avoidable situation is much better spent on another job making money. Just my thoughts. This philosophy has kept my bread well buttered.

[Soundy 1]

ptzguy, it seems you're missing the point, specifically in regards to this statement: "Also a camera at £50 with 520TVL's is, in my opinion, good value for money and practical for the job in mind. If cost wasn't an issue 600TVL cams would be installed"

 

To be blunt: TVL numbers don't mean $#!t. Saying it's "good value for the money" is meaningless based solely on the TVL rating. How good a value is it if it doesn't have decent noise processing, good low-light performance, or good optics? Cheap junk cameras all look fine with regular daylight under ideal conditions.

 

Search the forum here for the number of people who've bought "good value for the money" package systems from Costco or Maplins, then couldn't get a usable image from them when it really mattered.

[Tailbone215 0]

PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY TO THROW AROUND ANYMORE

 

That said, I would be more worried about getting paid the balance after you complete the job. Yes, you have to have enough padding in your proposals to cover the extremely rare deadbeat. Don't forget your "competition" might not have the overhead you do. No sense in working if you have to eat dirt cookies after paying your help.

[Soundy 1]

PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY TO THROW AROUND ANYMORE

That's right... and you're not doing them any favors if you let them throw it at something that's not going to perform as expected when it's REALLY needed.

[Tailbone215 0]

ptzguy, it seems you're missing the point, specifically in regards to this statement: "Also a camera at £50 with 520TVL's is, in my opinion, good value for money and practical for the job in mind. If cost wasn't an issue 600TVL cams would be installed"

 

To be blunt: TVL numbers don't mean $#!t. Saying it's "good value for the money" is meaningless based solely on the TVL rating. How good a value is it if it doesn't have decent noise processing, good low-light performance, or good optics? Cheap junk cameras all look fine with regular daylight under ideal conditions.

 

Search the forum here for the number of people who've bought "good value for the money" package systems from Costco or Maplins, then couldn't get a usable image from them when it really mattered.

 

Yep, very good points. Some of these cheaper cams recommended here do perform well in certain applications.

[rory 0]

Im doing budget installs now, but I HATE it. In fact I may end up just providing technical support instead for it, let them or someone else install that stuff, besides ANYONE can really install that, they get stuck when it comes to the DVR and remote video. Its not much one can do to make those type of cameras look any better, even though the ones we are using now are actually not bad (compared to others). Retail indoor jobs are simple enough and come out fine with the cheap cameras .. but even retail stores are not spending now. Homes are flooding into get quotes as violent crime increases, but homes (at least here) can be a major PITA to install even with all the best tools in the world, with split attics, dummy eaves, flat roofs and add ons, attics full of personal belongings, etc.

 

Right now its the only work available though, besides the occasional slightly larger CNB type job.

Forget pano and bosch type work, thats a thing of the past.

Prices have sky rocketted and everyone including the rich are spending less.

 

As to what type of cameras, that will depend on where you are buying from.

I tested dozens of really cheap cameras last summer and ended up with a decent enough 1/3" CCD from a distributor in Miami, price is really low, so low that even after customs duties here it is still under $100 sold here retail to the client. Ofcourse they are only 420TVL but its expected for the price - if you want to go up a notch then it goes up to something like CNB or KT&C. From there it goes up to Samsung, Sanyo, then Bosch and Panasonic .. etc... then MegaPixel. Because the Panos would be around $1000 a camera here after duty etc, Im sticking to KT&C and CNB for now, mid ranged products with good enough quality, good bang for buck, something people might actually be able to afford - at least that is what im advertising, I can still get them anything they want.

 

So it depends where you live, where you buy from, and who the majority of your clients will be, no point in advertising a $1000 camera if nobody will ever buy it. But for cheap budget cameras, just dont buy one and think they all will look like that, try a few different types. Price and specs mean little, they will all differ, though at least go with a 1/3" if you can. Most wont have any kind of IR Cut filter so expect washed out or unreal colors.

[ptzguy 0]

THANKS RORY!!! The kind of answer I was looking for!

...and just to go back a couple of steps, the customer is always made aware of they can spend '£50 on a camera or £5k'.

'Practicality' guys do you know what the word means??

The whole point of this post was to get the author a feeling of what cams/dvr's are out there for the job in mind, not a big slagging match between those that install 'nothing but the best' and those who 'tender for the customers budget and needs'!

I buy those 520TVL cams because of 1 purpose - they are as good as any other 520TVL internal cam out there(that I have worked with anyway), and that's why I purchase them! I have 20-20 spot-on vision, I like my cams to be the same. I'll stand by my IR Labs 520TVL Internal Dome because I know they give me a good picture, I paid £150 for a Samsung SDC425P, Sens up, HLC, WDR, SSNR... hey the picture is good - just as good as the IR Labs at £50! so who's the fool??

In a nursing home(plenty of them I have fitted out cctv) you'll find the corridor lights are on 24/7 so what do you need?? BLC maybe and thats about it!! Ultimately you need to see clearly down the corridors, this is where i tested various internal box cams... and do you know what? the IR Labs @£50 came up trumps yet again!

I know for a fact that if I had used Samsung cams all round I wouldn't have got the installs in the first place. So do I make money or mince-off with the tail between the legs? My bread and butter.

I don't want to fall out with any of you guys, I'm new to the forum but feel I'm having the pi$$ taken out of me here, sorta like bullying.

I just wanted to get a price comparison of the products you guys have in the US/CA, if it's not you're price range of products you purchase/install then tell me what you install and what, roughly, it costs you, or just observe..

Tired, headache, signing off.

[ptzguy 0]

Just noticed that this thread is entitled 'Old People Fighting', perhaps we should rename it 'Old Installers ***ing'! lol!

[ptzguy 0]

In fact I may end up just providing technical support instead for it, let them or someone else install that stuff, besides ANYONE can really install that, they get stuck when it comes to the DVR and remote video.

 

 

There's a couple of electricians in Dublin that can, so-so, install CCTV, yet they ask me to network DVR's, train the customers to operate the DVR's and train them up on the network viewing because it is 'beyond them'. 150euro for an hours work, nice.

The service contracts also bring money in every month, again it's money for nothing.

[ak357 0]

THANKS RORY!!! The kind of answer I was looking for!

...and just to go back a couple of steps, the customer is always made aware of they can spend '£50 on a camera or £5k'.

'Practicality' guys do you know what the word means??

The whole point of this post was to get the author a feeling of what cams/dvr's are out there for the job in mind, not a big slagging match between those that install 'nothing but the best' and those who 'tender for the customers budget and needs'!

I buy those 520TVL cams because of 1 purpose - they are as good as any other 520TVL internal cam out there(that I have worked with anyway), and that's why I purchase them! I have 20-20 spot-on vision, I like my cams to be the same. I'll stand by my IR Labs 520TVL Internal Dome because I know they give me a good picture, I paid £150 for a Samsung SDC425P, Sens up, HLC, WDR, SSNR... hey the picture is good - just as good as the IR Labs at £50! so who's the fool??

 

 

Well, we hear you

I do sell my 4ch basic DVR package with the same IR labs camera to DYI

I just stop installing them

but whole another story

[rory 0]

I just turned down my first budget job today for an apartment in the ghetto, and this might become a trend now - $200 or so labour is not worth getting shot for

[ptzguy 0]

I just turned down my first budget job today for an apartment in the ghetto, and this might become a trend now - $200 or so labour is not worth getting shot for

 

True, true.

The way I go about it(again I'm open to pot-shots from forum users!), I import equipment(quality equipment) I know no-one else in the country can beat me on price, so I'll bump up the price, let the customer think they're getting a bargain with the install/labour cost and that's how I work the magic. My motto is "like-for-like I won't be beaten on price" and it works for me.

Close your mouth, grit your teeth and look at the price of CCTV gear in Ireland. ...but then again that's what I was asking in the 1st place, some countries are charging way over the odds for gear and I wanted to get a feel for overseas prices.

[rory 0]

True, true.

The way I go about it(again I'm open to pot-shots from forum users!), I import equipment(quality equipment) I know no-one else in the country can beat me on price, so I'll bump up the price, let the customer think they're getting a bargain with the install/labour cost and that's how I work the magic. My motto is "like-for-like I won't be beaten on price" and it works for me.

Close your mouth, grit your teeth and look at the price of CCTV gear in Ireland. ...but then again that's what I was asking in the 1st place, some countries are charging way over the odds for gear and I wanted to get a feel for overseas prices.

Things are cheap in the US, we import almost everything from there but can cost us 2-3 times to land it here, for Cameras it can be 10-40% customs duties, depends on the customs officer on charge .. if they over charge it can take a month to get it straightened out so to get the product quicker then we just pay it. A $75 camera cost me $125 landed the other day, just a mini bullet camera. Sell that for $200 here but minimum 4 per order or full system (eg other cameras and DVR), single camera sale would be more, and thats with little to NO warranty as its special order, to offer warranty and pay for shipping back and forth would be more than people could afford. The distributors warranty applies though, and the manufacturers, so the client pays shipping - most failures here would be from rain, lightning or power surges which are not warrantied anyway. I paid overnight from NY to Miami the other day and it was $150 for a few mini cameras ... they quoted me UPS International for another order, direct to the Bahamas, was $800 shipping! UPS ground to Miami was free then a freight forwarder from there to here - takes longer but much much much cheaper - cant take 7-14 days to arrive. Most times something fails, we just chuck it if its not alot of money, as it will cost more in shipping and take a month to send it back and forth.

 

Ahh ..the joys of living in a country where we import everything

Ofcourse the customs duties are our version of tax, as we have no VAT or income tax - yet.

They charge 80% duty now on SUVs and Jeeps ... crazy stuff .. $20K jeep in the US costs $40K here.

 

I dont stock anything but colleague does, he only stocks the budget cameras and DVRs though, due to the cost of stocking that much product after shipping and duty. Also we are a small country with barely 250,000 in this main capital city (21x7 island) and most of it is ghetto.

[ptzguy 0]

Thanks Rory, an insight into how other countries were dealing with taxes/shipping etc is much appreciated, after all it determines the overall cost of equipment. I suppose I'm fortunate enough to be able to import gear and pass that saving onto the customer. ...Thats all I wanted to know really, how we got onto buying and selling sh!te I don't know, you could say I'm on the customers side, I couldn't rip anybody off point blank, I won't leave site until the customer is 100% happy.

[rory 0]

Thanks Rory, an insight into how other countries were dealing with taxes/shipping etc is much appreciated, after all it determines the overall cost of equipment. I suppose I'm fortunate enough to be able to import gear and pass that saving onto the customer. ...Thats all I wanted to know really, how we got onto buying and selling sh!te I don't know, you could say I'm on the customers side, I couldn't rip anybody off point blank, I won't leave site until the customer is 100% happy.

 

Thats me in a nutshell too, maybe thats why im still broke

To me I dont do it all for money though, I love to test cameras ... take them apart .. change parts .. I guess it takes me away from the computer long enough .. though I like to test between 12-5am

[thewireguys 3]

Why not sell the equipment at cost and charge for every last minute of labor?

[nifter53 0]

Wow, haven't check this post in a few days and...

 

I do appreciate all the feedback.

 

I'm in a pretty diverse market (northern Canada). Businesses have little money but the public sector has a lot off funding. I do some IP work (axis, iqeye, stardot, arecont, exacq...) and... elcheapo chinese stuff (mostly for coffee shops and places when the owner want to see their staff/store from home)

 

The real cheap chinese stuff has a horrible picture and the DVR's need to get rebooted once every few months, but they work for the most part just to see how busy your store is.

 

The megapixel stuff look amazing and the exacq software is very reliable. To be honest though, these systems need some baby sitting. Firmware updates, network optimization, stoage optimization etc...

 

The reason I 1st started this post is because I'm green to the "middle ground" market. The customer that wants something 100% reliable but not cutting edge technology. I know panasonic, sony, pelco, bosch are players, but leave those for the banks and jails. If I'm gonna spend money, I'll buy megapixel and do a bit of baby sitting. (that's my 2cents)

 

I've gotten some good feedback that CNB is a reliable vendor and the cameras should be in the area of $150-300 retail, and a decent DVR (one without the poor english translation) should be in the area $1500-$2000 retail.

 

In contrast, the coffee shop setups were using $40 cameras and a $200 pc based dvr (still working 1.5 years later)-my cost

The IP setup was using $1000 cameras and an $8000 NVR (still working 1 year later)-my cost

 

I guess my next setup will hopefulyl be using $100 cameras and a $1000 DVR (still working 10 years later)-my cost

 

Thanks again for all the input.

[ak357 0]

Wow, haven't check this post in a few days and...

 

I do appreciate all the feedback.

 

I'm in a pretty diverse market (northern Canada). Businesses have little money but the public sector has a lot off funding.

 

Thanks again for all the input.

 

Where are you in Canada ?

I am in Alberta

[Soundy 1]

And Raincouver (or the burbs thereof) here.

[FIERCE4203 0]

don't go with the TL series Speco DVR. For the money, they flat out suck. Save yourself alot of money go with an avtech or rayvision for alot less. Can't beat CNB domes for the price either.

[Angus 0]

I am in Alberta also... but alas i am just a home owner who does stuff in his spare time...