I need to see the details of a Black man's face at night.

[dspevack 0]

No, I'm not being racist.

It's a simple fact.

I own a warehouse. Most of my tenants and people in the neighborhood are black.

Camera's need to be on the roof about 15 feet high, and I need to see the features of

a black man's face at night, and read a license plate, from 25 feet away.

 

I had the new lorex system, but I returned it because the cameras that it came with weren't good enough.

Not sure if I need better res (those were 480 lines) better optics, more IR LED's That camera claimed a

40 ft range @ night but it looked as if the lenses were completely fogged. when it switched to night vision.

 

The choices I can get at local discount houses are Qsee, Lorex, and Night Owl, but I am open to all brands.

Any assistance is appreciated.

Thanks,

 

D.

[Soundy 1]

Nothing from a discount house is any good.

 

The lenses look fogged on those cameras because the IRs reflect off the inside of the glass, due to poor design, poor construction, or both.

 

If you want to read license plates, you'll either need to get into megapixel/high-def, or make sure the plates are confined to a small area (catch them along a driveway or coming through a gate).

 

You'll have better luck with faces if you can do the same thing as well (catch them coming through a door, for example).

[dspevack 0]

Soundy,

Being that this is an outdoor parking lot, confining things to a small area doesn't work very well.

Where can I find the lowest cost cameras of the megapixel/hi-def type you mentioned?

Any recommendations?

D.

[Soundy 1]

How large is this parking lot?

 

If you want to actually identify faces in a large lot, it's not going to be cheap - you're talking several megapixels and probably something with good low-light performance, so you're probably looking at the four-digit range.

 

Plates will be easier because cars will still be limited to the lot entrances, so you can use tighter shots on those areas.

[dspevack 0]

Soundy,

 

I have a warehouse that has a parking area 150 feet wide by 25 feet deep.

I can put cameras anywhere on the roof of the width of the building, as the building boarders the width of the parking area.

The parking area boarders the street without any specific entrance or exit to the parking area.

You simply turn from the street into a space on the property.

We have a problem with people pulling up to the dumpster in the middle of the night and dumping huge piles

of trash next to it. We have also had people come to this area and strip cars here, then set them on fire.

The police can't use blurry video to catch these guys.

 

Thanks,

 

D

[tomcctv 190]

Soundy,

 

I have a warehouse that has a parking area 150 feet wide by 25 feet deep.

I can put cameras anywhere on the roof of the width of the building, as the building boarders the width of the parking area.

The parking area boarders the street without any specific entrance or exit to the parking area.

You simply turn from the street into a space on the property.

We have a problem with people pulling up to the dumpster in the middle of the night and dumping huge piles

of trash next to it. We have also had people come to this area and strip cars here, then set them on fire.

The police can't use blurry video to catch these guys.

 

Thanks,

 

D

 

 

i think what soundy is saying is to use ip cameras. and i think you have in mind are standard cameras. ip will give you much more coverage and more detail and you dont need as many ip as you would standard cameras.

 

for number plates you do need a target point ...... ok you have no entry exit points. but you have said people empty rubbish at your dumpsters. that is a number plate target point. car has stopped and people will be out and about there car.

 

what is your budget.

[dspevack 0]

Tom,

 

When I think of IP I think of Internet Protocol, so I'm not sure what you mean by IP vs std cameras.

I was definitely thinking of cameras with IR, if that is what you mean.

I keep one of the warehouses in that building for myself.

On my first try at this, I bought the Lorex system and ran wired cameras up from my dvr thru a hole in

the roof and out to each location, spaced out across the width of the building. No objection to using

wireless but no need to either.

 

Budget. I'd like to pay maximum $300 for a mutiplex (or as Lorex put it, Optiplex DVR) of at least 8 channels.

And then as far as cameras go, no more than $300/camera but preferrably much less. Once I have a camera that

works, I can always add them as cash flow permits.

Unfortunately, there is no place to put cameras that are for instance, closer to the dumpster.

I can only place them on the building.

I can also place them no lower than the roof, as it would be too easy for vandals to steal the cameras themselves.

On the roof they are out of most people's sight line.

 

D.

[bricor 0]

Your budget isn't realistic for what you want/need. (your off by a thousand at least per camera to get usable video in that large a space and from the top of a building)

Analog cameras will not do what you want from that distance and cheap IP cameras won't either.

To start, I'd suggest putting cameras at the entry/exit points of the parking lot and trying to get license plate info of the people entering the lot.

[dspevack 0]

Your budget isn't realistic for what you want/need. (your off by a thousand at least per camera to get usable video in that large a space and from the top of a building)

Analog cameras will not do what you want from that distance and cheap IP cameras won't either.

To start, I'd suggest putting cameras at the entry/exit points of the parking lot and trying to get license plate info of the people entering the lot.

 

Bricor,

As I stated earlier, their are no entry/exit points of the parking lot.

I still don't have any other definition of "IP" camera, or why an IP camera is different/better.

If I have to readjust my budget, I will. Money is fluid. I said $300 was my preference, not requirement.

The important thing is finding the right product and getting value for my money.

The building roof is only about 15 feet high.

 

D.

[dvarapala 0]

As I stated earlier, their are no entry/exit points of the parking lot.

 

I understand that none exist now, but can you create one? For example, install a fence or place some bollards or even some large rocks along the street, leaving a single gap to serve as the entry/exit point for your parking lot. This would give you the "choke point" you need to allow you to focus your camera(s) more tightly.

 

I still don't have any other definition of "IP" camera, or why an IP camera is different/better.

 

I think what the other poster is suggesting is that you get some megapixel cameras. Megapixel cameras are almost always IP cameras because analog standards such as NTSC do not support high resolutions. A high res camera will give you more detailed coverage of a wider area than an analog camera can. However, if you install some sort of barrier to limit entry/egress to a single point, maybe you can get away with a (cheaper) analog camera focused on the choke point and maybe a second one focused on your dumpster area.

 

If I have to readjust my budget, I will.

 

I think you can pretty much count on that happening.

[NotoriousBRK 0]

Your budget isn't realistic for what you want/need. (your off by a thousand at least per camera to get usable video in that large a space and from the top of a building)

Analog cameras will not do what you want from that distance and cheap IP cameras won't either.

To start, I'd suggest putting cameras at the entry/exit points of the parking lot and trying to get license plate info of the people entering the lot.

 

Bricor,

As I stated earlier, their are no entry/exit points of the parking lot.

I still don't have any other definition of "IP" camera, or why an IP camera is different/better.

If I have to readjust my budget, I will. Money is fluid. I said $300 was my preference, not requirement.

The important thing is finding the right product and getting value for my money.

The building roof is only about 15 feet high.

 

D.

 

Analog cameras (what you're probably used to), are limited to a basic resolution (D1, 4CIF, VGA, Standard TV resolution). These all vary by a couple of pixels per row/column, but are all effectively the same thing. They equate to ~330,000 pixels. Analog cameras use a coax cable to communicate back to a DVR or viewing station.

 

IP cameras have an Ethernet port. They communicate on a network, and can support higher resolutions. Some go up to 16 Mega-pixel (16,000,000 pixels), but most of what you'd be looking at is in the 2-3 mega-pixel range.

 

If you want to make out facial or license plate details it is basic "camera math". You're going to want at least 50 pixels-per-fot (meaning that every 1 linear foot has at least 50 pixels of the image sensor covering it). This is *normally* just factored across the horizontal to make it easy.

 

So, let's say you have an area that is 150 feet wide. 150x50 = 7500. You'd need 7500 pixels across this area to get adequate resolution. You also don't want to cover too wide of an area with any one camera, even if it was 7500 pixels wide (to get best detail you'd like the shots to be as straight-on as possible). So, a common format would be a 16:9 aspect ratio 1080p (2.1 megapixel) camera. This would be a camera with 1080 lines by 1920 pixels wide. 1920 pixels / 50 pixels per foot = 38.4 (call it 38 even). A single 2.1 MP camera could cover 38 linear feet of parking lot to give you the *minimum* requirement to start to get good detail.

 

Cameras are nothing more than light receptors. As lighting drops, so does the detail gathered. Less light generally means you need tighter shots (more pixels per foot). For your parking lot, you'd probably want at least 200 lux at the target in order for the camera to get enough light to give you a crisp image. As lighting drops, camera count goes up. You have to do the math to determine what is important or most cost effective:

 

1) More lights, less cameras

2) More cameras, less lights

3) Come to think of it, I really don't *need* all that resolution after all.

 

For what you want to do, you're probably looking at somewhere around 9-10 2.1MP IP cameras, with some powerful IR illuminators (you're NOT going to solve this problem with junk cameras that have some IR LED's sprinkled around the lens).

 

A cheap 2.1 MP IP camera is around $300-$500 street price. A good IR illuminator is around $500. Then you need an NVR and some other odds and ends. This is a $5K job minimum, maybe a little less if you skimp a bit here and there and scrounge for some good 2nd hand deals. Cheaper cameras will have sub-par low-light performance, so you might end up spending closer to $750 for a camera that's not going to be crap and fail in 4 months.

[thewireguys 3]

Look at this thread for images from Megapixel cameras.

 

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11322

[dspevack 0]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for some clear information.

IP Cameras=Cameras with an Ethernet Port.

2.1 megapixel Cameras every 38 feet= 4 cameras

or perhaps a larger number of the 1.3 megapixel cameras.

In addition, adding significant lighting will reduce my costs alot.

Because the parking area borders the street, and city rules require

no construction 10 feet from the 5 foot public works right of way (totaling 15 feet),

I cannot build anything more than 10 feet from my building.

In addition any barriers of any kind would by definition be in the way of

access to a parking space. Since there are only two parking spaces per

warehouse business, this is unacceptable. Big rigs move in and out of

that parking area all the time. Barriers would cause more harm than good,

and devalue the property in terms of access.

 

I took a look at the 1.3 megapixel images, which looked great.

Haven't had a chance to surf the entire thread.

I assume that NVR refers to Networked Video Recorders?

Is there a previous discussion thread on low cost NVRs that you can point me to?

 

 

D.

[rory 0]

I need to see the features of

a black man's face at night

 

What about black women?

[Tailbone215 0]

Here's my take on all of this. The indigenousness populi you are trying to control are creatures of habits. They generally visit the same areas of parking lots or whatever area they feel safe doing their business. Your goal here is to protect access points of your building(s) and property. You are not going to stop someone that has a mission in mind. First off, they will spot cameras quicker than they would a natural blonde standing on the corner. Seeing your cameras they will do one of two things, move on because it isn't worth their effort or shoot the cameras. The way I would do this instead of blowing a wad of cash is to get at least enough analog or IP cams to protect the areas that need the most protection, your building's access points. Post signage, the traditional "No Trespassing" and "CCTV" signs do wonders. Again, they will see the cameras anyway, so doing this will deter the average trespasser or vandal. Other than that, the best cameras in the world aren't going to buy you anything more than burning time going to court prosecuting these morons, which will be out in a few days and/or retaliation from the most uncivilised native or their relatives. Pick your battles wisely.

[Sawbones 0]

Here's my take on all of this. The indigenousness populi you are trying to control are creatures of habits. They generally visit the same areas of parking lots or whatever area they feel safe doing their business. Your goal here is to protect access points of your building(s) and property. You are not going to stop someone that has a mission in mind. First off, they will spot cameras quicker than they would a natural blonde standing on the corner. Seeing your cameras they will do one of two things, move on because it isn't worth their effort or shoot the cameras. The way I would do this instead of blowing a wad of cash is to get at least enough analog or IP cams to protect the areas that need the most protection, your building's access points. Post signage, the traditional "No Trespassing" and "CCTV" signs do wonders. Again, they will see the cameras anyway, so doing this will deter the average trespasser or vandal. Other than that, the best cameras in the world aren't going to buy you anything more than burning time going to court prosecuting these morons, which will be out in a few days and/or retaliation from the most uncivilised native or their relatives. Pick your battles wisely.

 

Hate to say it, but there's quite a bit of truth there. In urban areas, the courts are often so clogged with cases, that even violent assaults and robberies get plea-bargained away. A simple property crime isn't going to get much jail time, if any.

 

And restitution? Forget it... the kinds of people we're talking about don't work, don't actually own anything, and frequently have several addresses that they "live at." Finding them is hard enough, but actually finding some kind of attachable asset or paycheck you can garnish? You can forget that too.

 

Scamming and avoiding the system is a way-of-life in certain criminal subcultures. For all intents and purposes, such individuals are judgment-proof, and better off avoided.

[thewireguys 3]

Or you need to catch them in the act.

[jxk716 0]

the best cameras in the world aren't going to buy you anything more than burning time going to court prosecuting these morons, which will be out in a few days and/or retaliation from the most uncivilised native or their relatives. Pick your battles wisely.

 

Hate to say it, but there's quite a bit of truth there. In urban areas, the courts are often so clogged with cases, that even violent assaults and robberies get plea-bargained away. A simple property crime isn't going to get much jail time, if any.

 

And restitution? Forget it... the kinds of people we're talking about don't work, don't actually own anything, and frequently have several addresses that they "live at." Finding them is hard enough, but actually finding some kind of attachable asset or paycheck you can garnish? You can forget that too.

 

Scamming and avoiding the system is a way-of-life in certain criminal subcultures. For all intents and purposes, such individuals are judgment-proof, and better off avoided.

 

The only hope left, which has occured in my situation, they get tired of getting busted because it means 12 -24 hours without booze/drugs. They moved on in our neighborhood only to be replaced by their friends. I have to admit something here; we pay for extra duty city police to provide security and they bust idiots outside regularly based on what they see on the cams. The same guys have been there a while and we have a raport with them. Don't know what we'd do if that relationship was not there. Sorry guys for going off topic here.

[Sawbones 0]

 

The only hope left, which has occured in my situation, they get tired of getting busted because it means 12 -24 hours without booze/drugs. They moved on in our neighborhood only to be replaced by their friends. I have to admit something here; we pay for extra duty city police to provide security and they bust idiots outside regularly based on what they see on the cams. The same guys have been there a while and we have a raport with them. Don't know what we'd do if that relationship was not there. Sorry guys for going off topic here.

 

I wouldn't say it's off-topic at all. The OP is looking at security arrangements for his facility, and he might as well know what kind of utility it will provide, based on the legal/political realities of inner-city goblins.

 

Unlike suburban high-school kids, plenty of hard-core inner-city denizens aren't put off at all by security cameras... witness the number of "stop-n-rob" crimes that are regularly recorded in those areas... and half the time the bad guys don't even bother to wear a mask.

 

And lest anybody think otherwise, that behavior crosses all racial boundaries.

[rory 0]

I wouldn't say it's off-topic at all. The OP is looking at security arrangements for his facility, and he might as well know what kind of utility it will provide, based on the legal/political realities of inner-city goblins.

 

Unlike suburban high-school kids, plenty of hard-core inner-city denizens aren't put off at all by security cameras... witness the number of "stop-n-rob" crimes that are regularly recorded in those areas... and half the time the bad guys don't even bother to wear a mask.

 

And lest anybody think otherwise, that behavior crosses all racial boundaries.

 

pretty much what its like here.

criminals here care less about a camera, they dont even care if they goto prison.

murderers getting 2-3 years for cold blooded murder charged as manslaughter.

thugs stab people 5 feet in front of a camera and get out on bail in 2 days.

witnesses to crimes are simply intimidated, paid off, or killed anyway, so nobody talks.

unlike other countries our government doesnt give us the right to bear arms.

masks? whats that? dreds is walk right up in front of the camera and smile, then go on a rampage.

even inhouse theft, cashiers have cameras all over them and they still steal.

 

If I were the OP, some cameras on the main entrances, areas they know the criminals have come through before, then some wide overview cameras. And spent more money on physical security and alarm system.

 

But to really answer the title of this thread, put alot of light behind the camera, the darker the persons face the more light you need on the face. Even WDR cameras have issues with dark faces, ive had to use BLC instead.

[dspevack 0]

Umm.... WDR? BLC?

[jxk716 0]

Umm.... WDR? BLC?

 

Wide Dynamic Range and Back Light Compensation

 

This may help. As a novice I found it really informative

 

http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24522

[LittleScoobyMaster 0]

No, I'm not being racist.

It's a simple fact.

I own a warehouse. Most of my tenants and people in the neighborhood are black.

Camera's need to be on the roof about 15 feet high, and I need to see the features of

a black man's face at night, and read a license plate, from 25 feet away.

 

Racist!!!

 

Just kidding.

 

Your post hits my funny bone in just the right way.

 

But seriously, like Sawbones was saying, your best bet against some of those lowlifes is to just try to deter them in clever ways. Take the Contech Electronics CRO101 Scarecrow Motion-Activated Sprinker for example. This way, at least you can get them wet.

 

http://www.abstreet.com/2011/03/27/contech-electronics-cro101-scarecrow-motion-activated-sprinkler-reviews/

 

http://www.amazon.com/Contech-Electronics-CRO101-Scarecrow-Motion-Activated/dp/B000071NUS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1303447112&sr=8-1

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

No, I'm not being racist.

It's a simple fact.

I own a warehouse. Most of my tenants and people in the neighborhood are black.

Camera's need to be on the roof about 15 feet high, and I need to see the features of

a black man's face at night, and read a license plate, from 25 feet away.

 

Racist!!!

 

Just kidding.

 

Your post hits my funny bone in just the right way.

 

But seriously, like Sawbones was saying, your best bet against some of those lowlifes is to just try to deter them in clever ways. Take the Contech Electronics CRO101 Scarecrow Motion-Activated Sprinker for example. This way, at least you can get them wet.

 

You can also consider the Mosquito range of Anti Loitering devices.

 

see http://www.compoundsecurity.co.uk/security-equipment/mosquito-device

 

Ilkie

[LittleScoobyMaster 0]

No, I'm not being racist.

It's a simple fact.

I own a warehouse. Most of my tenants and people in the neighborhood are black.

Camera's need to be on the roof about 15 feet high, and I need to see the features of

a black man's face at night, and read a license plate, from 25 feet away.

 

Racist!!!

 

Just kidding.

 

Your post hits my funny bone in just the right way.

 

But seriously, like Sawbones was saying, your best bet against some of those lowlifes is to just try to deter them in clever ways. Take the Contech Electronics CRO101 Scarecrow Motion-Activated Sprinker for example. This way, at least you can get them wet.

 

You can also consider the Mosquito range of Anti Loitering devices.

 

see http://www.compoundsecurity.co.uk/security-equipment/mosquito-device

 

Ilkie

 

I've seen those before. I almost ordered one because of the noisy teenage drug dealers across the street. Problem is they cost a fortune and I couldn't find any that were made for the states, or an easy way to test them out and return it if I'm not satisified.