System install from HELL!!!!

[Tailbone215 0]

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say he's using crimp-on connectors!!!!

[Tailbone215 0]

All shorting one end will do is tell you if you have an open/break in the wire... it won't tell you if there are other shorts along the way, or issues like bad dielectric or crushed sections.

 

 

If he measures resistance prior to shorting the other end and finds some then we can say he has some sort of problem. If it is open prior to shorting than he is good. Bad dielectric will induce an impedance bump and will degrade picture or add noise. If he has good confirmed continuity than he should proceed to meg the cable to test the dielectric breakdown point with a megger. I'm going with bad crimp-ons and sticking with it.

[ptzguy 0]

...I'm going with bad crimp-ons and sticking with it.

 

Surely he swapped the BNC's?!

...It's one of the first things I do if I get no picture...

[Soundy 1]

 

All shorting one end will do is tell you if you have an open/break in the wire... it won't tell you if there are other shorts along the way, or issues like bad dielectric or crushed sections.

 

In your opinion how "bad dielectric or crushed sections"

affect video ?

Like Tailbone said, "Bad dielectric will induce an impedance bump and will degrade picture or add noise." A badly crushed section of wire can do the same.

 

If he measures resistance prior to shorting the other end and finds some then we can say he has some sort of problem. If it is open prior to shorting than he is good.

Depending on what cable tester he's using, this may have already been checked.

 

My own preference is to stick a 75-ohm terminator on one end and then measure the resistance at the other end - anything substantially higher or lower than 75 ohms indicates a problem.

 

In any case, all this dances around the statement that cable STILL IN THE BOX tested as bad, and as much as bad crimps are a possibility, I find it a stretch to think that they're bad on four out of five runs, AS WELL AS those on the box itself. Not knowing the exact tester used, we're also assuming that the cable needs to be terminated for testing.

[Tailbone215 0]

Depending on what cable tester he's using, this may have already been checked.

 

My own preference is to stick a 75-ohm terminator on one end and then measure the resistance at the other end - anything substantially higher or lower than 75 ohms indicates a problem.

 

In any case, all this dances around the statement that cable STILL IN THE BOX tested as bad, and as much as bad crimps are a possibility, I find it a stretch to think that they're bad on four out of five runs, AS WELL AS those on the box itself. Not knowing the exact tester used, we're also assuming that the cable needs to be terminated for testing.

 

 

 

Only thing you're accomplishing by putting a 75-ohm terminator on is checking continuity and eliminating the possibility of having a dead short in the cable. This does nothing for determining other issues. Megging a cable will quickly tell you what's going on. He might have ripped through the outer jacket and is somehow rubbing up against earth ground. He might have almost stressed the cable to the breaking point while pulling and created internal damage, not necessarily an open or short condition. I find the odds are against getting multiple runs of "bad cable" in a 1,000' roll, even the Chinese crap. Meggers are cheap. If one wants to be really anal they will TDR.

 

It's them damn twist-on connectors I tell ya! It's a damn conspiracy....

[Soundy 1]

Only thing you're accomplishing by putting a 75-ohm terminator on is checking continuity and eliminating the possibility of having a dead short in the cable.

Right, but it lets you check for short, open, or significant damage in one step. 95% of the time it will reveal the flaw.

 

He might have almost stressed the cable to the breaking point while pulling and created internal damage, not necessarily an open or short condition. I find the odds are against getting multiple runs of "bad cable" in a 1,000' roll, even the Chinese crap.

If a 1000' length of cable is bad in one spot due to manufacturing problems... why couldn't it be bad every 500', 250', even every 50', or in numerous random spots? It would be hard to get stress damage on a piece of wire that's never left its packing box.

 

It's them damn twist-on connectors I tell ya! It's a damn conspiracy....

*ducks out of the line of fire between Tailbone and Rory*

[Tailbone215 0]

Right, but it lets you check for short, open, or significant damage in one step. 95% of the time it will reveal the flaw.

 

True this will give you preliminary results if we are testing in a perfect world or right on the spool. This test is highly incomplete in the field as one finds more instances of cable that has a ripped jacket and rubbing against ground or water getting in. You'll never be able to measure this type of problem doing a continuity test most of the time until the problem has become very serious.

 

If a 1000' length of cable is bad in one spot due to manufacturing problems... why couldn't it be bad every 500', 250', even every 50', or in numerous random spots? It would be hard to get stress damage on a piece of wire that's never left its packing box.

 

Anything is remotely possible, but what are the odds? I mean really.

[ssmith10pn 0]

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say he's using crimp-on connectors!!!!

 

 

That's where I was going with asking if he checked the cable without connectors and shorted one end.

Even with compressions it's easy to let one strand of shield make contact with the core.

 

I still don't buy the bad cable theory.

You get bet yer a$$ the manufacturer tests the cable in some way before it gets out the door.

[thewireguys 3]

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say he's using crimp-on connectors!!!!

 

 

That's where I was going with asking if he checked the cable without connectors and shorted one end.

Even with compressions it's easy to let one strand of shield make contact with the core.

 

I still don't buy the bad cable theory.

You get bet yer a$$ the manufacturer tests the cable in some way before it gets out the door.

 

The Validator should tell him the distance to short. This would tell us alot.

[SEANHAWG 1]

Dang!

 

And that is all I have to contribute to this thread.

[thewireguys 3]

I am not trying to offend anyone but this is not very difficult to trouble shoot if you have enough experience. Question to OP why did you cut and splice the camera feed?

[Tailbone215 0]

I am not trying to offend anyone but this is not very difficult to trouble shoot if you have enough experience. Question to OP why did you cut and splice the camera feed?

 

I think there is more to this story than what is being told.

[Soundy 1]

I'm thinking the splice point is probably at a point where access and/or cable running is difficult and something made it inefficient to pull a continuous run through. It's not unusual, I've had plenty of installs, especially those where you have to do a run in stages, where it's easier to stop a pull at one point and then start a new one... even times when that's the only way to get it done.

 

I also don't know why it's so hard to believe that there could be multiple failures within a box of cable - if there was a problem with the manufacturing process, there's probably several dozen boxes of cable out there with the same problem, and numerous other customers cursing their installs as well. We've seen at least one thread here before where someone's had multiple boxes or spools of cable that were bad.

[thewireguys 3]

I'm thinking the splice point is probably at a point where access and/or cable running is difficult and something made it inefficient to pull a continuous run through. It's not unusual, I've had plenty of installs, especially those where you have to do a run in stages, where it's easier to stop a pull at one point and then start a new one... even times when that's the only way to get it done.

 

I also don't know why it's so hard to believe that there could be multiple failures within a box of cable - if there was a problem with the manufacturing process, there's probably several dozen boxes of cable out there with the same problem, and numerous other customers cursing their installs as well. We've seen at least one thread here before where someone's had multiple boxes or spools of cable that were bad.

 

I am not saying that there is a possibility of a bad box of cable but I have been pulling cable for 12 years and I haven't had a bad box yet.

 

Also sorry but spicing cable because of inefficient pull is just being lazy. A splice point is a failure point just don't do it. Only reason to splice a cable is to fix a cut wire.

[Tailbone215 0]

 

I am not saying that there is a possibility of a bad box of cable but I have been pulling cable for 12 years and I haven't had a bad box yet.

 

Exactly my point! What are the odds? Only bad cabling I have ever run across was caused by mishandling during shipping or installation.

 

Also sorry but spicing cable because of inefficient pull is just being lazy. A splice point is a failure point just don't do it. Only reason to splice a cable is to fix a cut wire.

 

I'm glad you said what I'm thinking. If you can get a pull from point A to B there's no reason you can't get the same run from B to C. I've seen a couple techs get their fishing rods caught between HVAC duct and the deck. They wanted to abandon the rods till I showed them how to dislodge them. Simply put, laziness. These types of runs take a little planning and extra time and effort to find the path of least resistance. Had these guys pulled cable on that route they would have torn it wide open.

[Soundy 1]

 

I am not saying that there is a possibility of a bad box of cable but I have been pulling cable for 12 years and I haven't had a bad box yet.

 

Exactly my point! What are the odds? Only bad cabling I have ever run across was caused by mishandling during shipping or installation.

Yes, but being professionals, we only buy good, name-brand cabling from well-known manufacturers. DO A SEARCH - THERE ARE THREADS HERE ABOUT PEOPLE WHO BOUGHT CHEAP EBAY CABLE AND REGRETTED IT. Like ANYTHING ELSE, it is possible to get bad product straight from the manufacturer!

 

Also sorry but spicing cable because of inefficient pull is just being lazy. A splice point is a failure point just don't do it. Only reason to splice a cable is to fix a cut wire.

 

I'm glad you said what I'm thinking. If you can get a pull from point A to B there's no reason you can't get the same run from B to C. I've seen a couple techs get their fishing rods caught between HVAC duct and the deck. They wanted to abandon the rods till I showed them how to dislodge them. Simply put, laziness. These types of runs take a little planning and extra time and effort to find the path of least resistance. Had these guys pulled cable on that route they would have torn it wide open.

 

Dare to dream. Come work with me on a couple jobs, when you have to pull through messed-up conduit runs installed by electricians who have no idea about CCTV. Staging out a 100' loop of cable is bad enough when you have an open floor to coil it on... the OP was working along the roof of an operating production facility where he probably didn't have the option to drop a staging loop.

 

It happens; I've seen it, I've done it, in the same sort of situation (bottling plant running 24/7, dodging forklifts driven by maniacs and speed freaks... gobs of fun!) A zig-zagging run through truss and Q-deck can't be done in one non-stop pull, and if the activity below prevents staging the run, you're left with little option but to make junction points.

 

There's no reason a splice can't be perfectly solid and reliable if done right.

[thewireguys 3]

Soundy sorry but is just plan lazy to splice cable. Quote the job correctly and you will not have this problem.

[Tailbone215 0]

It happens; I've seen it, I've done it, in the same sort of situation (bottling plant running 24/7, dodging forklifts driven by maniacs and speed freaks... gobs of fun!) A zig-zagging run through truss and Q-deck can't be done in one non-stop pull, and if the activity below prevents staging the run, you're left with little option but to make junction points.

 

Huh? If you gotta go through all of that you better have enough manpower and be running pulling line till you get to the point of where you have everything figured out and can make the final pull in one shot while having the help at the difficult points nursing the cable along. Run fiber and you will see how beneficial it is to avoid splicing in inhospitable areas. Of course, if you miscalculate the length of a run and you will be a slicing to cover your mistake.

[thewireguys 3]

It happens; I've seen it, I've done it, in the same sort of situation (bottling plant running 24/7, dodging forklifts driven by maniacs and speed freaks... gobs of fun!) A zig-zagging run through truss and Q-deck can't be done in one non-stop pull, and if the activity below prevents staging the run, you're left with little option but to make junction points.

 

Huh? If you gotta go through all of that you better have enough manpower and be running pulling line till you get to the point of where you have everything figured out and can make the final pull in one shot while having the help at the difficult points nursing the cable along. Run fiber and you will see how beneficial it is to avoid splicing in inhospitable areas. Of course, if you miscalculate the length of a run and you will be a slicing to cover your mistake.

 

+1

[bpzle 0]

I would love to see if you can short center conductor with braid on one end

and measure resistance on other end

and tell us value

 

My first question

[bpzle 0]

Loving how everyone jumps to conclusions, obviously before reading all the way through the original post.

 

 

 

no one has jumped to conclusions. we understand he has a bad roll of cable. but other have also picked up power at 650ft (200m) is also going to be a problem with power on 12v dc

 

The ? is did he measure voltage with or without load

 

Any my second.

[rory 0]

Dare to dream. Come work with me on a couple jobs, when you have to pull through messed-up conduit runs installed by electricians who have no idea about CCTV. Staging out a 100' loop of cable is bad enough when you have an open floor to coil it on... the OP was working along the roof of an operating production facility where he probably didn't have the option to drop a staging loop.

 

It happens; I've seen it, I've done it, in the same sort of situation (bottling plant running 24/7, dodging forklifts driven by maniacs and speed freaks... gobs of fun!) A zig-zagging run through truss and Q-deck can't be done in one non-stop pull, and if the activity below prevents staging the run, you're left with little option but to make junction points.

 

There's no reason a splice can't be perfectly solid and reliable if done right.

+1

Anyone that does alot of upgrade or service work surely has done alot of solid splicing in their time. Or dealing with electricians that run the cable to the wrong spot, or camera has to be moved for whatever reason and well client does not have endless funding.

[renz05725 0]

funny to see how so many people jump to conclusions and don't bother reading the initial posts all the way thru.

 

Tom and Rory are right, it seems the power supply is not putting out the correct amps even though it is showing the correct voltage. I have purchased a AC power supply for these far runs to correct the problem.

 

Now to answer some of the other questions about this install. My distributor for this cable tested this cable with another tester and it is a BAD REEL of cable. It seems they got it from a cable liquidator and it was liquidated for a reason. I told him he will have to reimburse me for this cable and time spent trouble shooting, which will be taken out of my Net30 payment with them.

 

As for the splice. This splice is needed. I wish I could run the cable the additional 150ft from where the splice is, but to do so is to hard and a splice works fine. I had to run the cable over a live milk cartoon tramway that never shuts down and they do not want any particals falling into the milk cartons from pulling this cable. So what I did was throw it over the tramway, splice it thru a hole we made in a wall 25ft up in the ceiling where not scissor lift or ladder fits. Could we have run the full run. Yes we could have, but the amount of time it would have taken and the possibilities of containmating the milk cartons was to great, so a splice is what we decided on. Call it lazy, I call it getting it done in a manner that suites the live enviorment we are in with the specifications of our customer and keeping it within the alloted time frame (that has been blown up) to get this install taken care of within the budget that will either make money or lose money due to time mis-spent. If you where to see how the cable had to be run, you would understand. But then again maybe you wouldn't.

 

So tomorrow we will be onsite to finish this install off and hopefully be able to submit the final invoice. Tom and Rory, check you pm's though i have some questions for both of you.

 

Soundy you also seemed to know what you were talking about in your posts and it was what we were going thru and why we did what we did.

[Tailbone215 0]

Congratulations on getting it working. Hopefully you will be able to recoup some of your lost revenue dealing with the defective cable. Let us know if you do get reimbursed from the distributor for lost labor. I think he might have other intentions. Just be careful of using cheap cable.

[Soundy 1]

It happens; I've seen it, I've done it, in the same sort of situation (bottling plant running 24/7, dodging forklifts driven by maniacs and speed freaks... gobs of fun!) A zig-zagging run through truss and Q-deck can't be done in one non-stop pull, and if the activity below prevents staging the run, you're left with little option but to make junction points.

 

Huh? If you gotta go through all of that you better have enough manpower and be running pulling line till you get to the point of where you have everything figured out and can make the final pull in one shot while having the help at the difficult points nursing the cable along.

 

"Enough manpower." Right. And what do you do when that exceeds a "reasonable" point? If I'd had to do the aforementioned bottling plant with a single pull, some runs would have required (NO EXAGGERATION!) six guys, five of them on lifts. I mean yeah, that woulda been great, zip through the whole job in no time... however, since we're normally a crew of two, that would mean hiring four subs and renting three extra lifts for the day. And don't forget the constant flow of forklifts zipping around - with two of us and a single lift, it was possible to stay out of the way for the most part... any more than that, the client would never have gone for the level of disruption.

 

I've said it before: sometimes you have to do what you have to do to keep things "reasonable"; the ideal situation is rarely possible.