casino set from analog to ip

[survtech 0]

There you go confusing the issue again. When I first questioned you about IP, you said that the casino didn't install IP but HD, as in HDcctv. Please get your facts straight. The Golden Gate Hotel and Casino installed an IP system: IndigoVision.

 

http://www.securitynewsdesk.com/2010/11/18/historic-las-vegas-casino-leads-industry-into-hd-cctv/ "The 99-camera system will completely replace the existing analogue/DVR equipment and be installed in full compliance with the local Gaming Board by IndigoVision’s Authorised Partner and gaming specialist, Southwest Surveillance."

 

For one thing, 99 cameras is a laugher. The casino I work at has nearly 1000 cameras and that is by no means a large installation. There are some casinos that have 5000+.

 

IndigoVision is not HDcctv. The term HD usually applies to 720p or 1080p IP in most people's minds. But you would get a huge argument if you broached that subject with the HDcctv Alliance. HDcctv uses HD-SDI to transport the signals; not IP. Perhaps you would like to read further? http://www.highdefcctv.org/.

 

That is what we were referring to as "not ready for prime time".

[Soundy 1]

Bet Todd will be all over that one - note how the headline (and URL) on the article says "HD CCTV".

[survtech 0]

Bet Todd will be all over that one - note how the headline (and URL) on the article says "HD CCTV".

I caught that too. Let's send the link to Todd. I love giving him apoplexy! " title="Applause" />

[martijnk 0]

Its interesting to see the childish comments about the promoters of the HDcctv movement. Im not sure why, because ir deserve respect, how Todd Rockoff and some of the bigger Video Security Companies have created momentum for HDcctv. Most of the time people that are not in the position or do have the qualities to do something new are attacking people like Todd Rockoff.

 

The debate HD IP or HDcctv is an old one, if you are still in that mode you have already lost your credibility for the rest of your career.

 

Its also interesting to see that suvtech likes to tell again what others say or tell or what he have read in magazine, i also think he sleeps with a business card of John Honovich under his pillow, becasue i constantly read his words....

[Soundy 1]

Wow, that almost made sense.

 

"The debate HD IP or HDcctv is an old one" - really? HDcctv products have just started hitting the market in the last few months... and while it's been PROMISED as the ultimate-killer-of-all-other-forms-of-CCTV for at least the last two years, even that doesn't qualify as an "old" debate.

 

As far as Todd, well, he brings it on himself. His posts are consistently patronizing, especially in his little LinkedIn sandbox (per NUMEROUS private messages from other users, BTW - Carl and I are FAR from the only ones who feel this way). His constant harping that others using the term "HD" in reference to any sort of CCTV products, is some sort of grand validation of the HDcctv Alliance, is in itself, childish in the extreme - "Look, they're using MY name and MY special word - this must mean they want to be like me!" Wow, really?

 

His ongoing propensity to deflect direct questions about the technology, pricing, availability, or anything else that might actually be USEFUL to integrators, but rather to respond with marketing gibberish and hype, does little to win anyone over to the cause.

 

His latest ploy has been to put on moderation anyone who doesn't spend all their time praising HDcctv on his LinkedIn group - you don't dare ask pointed questions at risk of simply being censored. His toady Craig, for example, made some wild, fanciful claim about HDcctv cameras... I posted simply to ask him to provide an example; that post never appeared. Tried reposting it several times before I even realized the little line that said my posts were "being held pending approval"... last I checked, they were still sitting there, three weeks later (that was at least another three weeks ago - can't be bothered to check anymore).

 

Childish? If people are making childish comments about Todd and Craig, it's because they continue to BEHAVE childishly.

[ayalas 0]

Wow cant we all just get alone. I started this post only for some info on ip from analog. But now im even more confused on it between ip and hd. This casino has about 150 cams total (small island casino compared to the us casinos ) i would say about 80% of the cams are pelcos iv ptz the rest are fix cams most honeywell. With a pelco matrix and a few dvrs but i respect everyones opinion here and i do learn from you guys, i especialy like to read survtech being that he has a casino backround in witch im new at and need as much info as i can get. I hope i can continue to read in this forum and learn of you guys.Thanx (my two cents)

[survtech 0]

Wow cant we all just get alone. I started this post only for some info on ip from analog. But now im even more confused on it between ip and hd. This casino has about 150 cams total (small island casino compared to the us casinos ) i would say about 80% of the cams are pelcos iv ptz the rest are fix cams most honeywell. With a pelco matrix and a few dvrs but i respect everyones opinion here and i do learn from you guys, i especialy like to read survtech being that he has a casino backround in witch im new at and need as much info as i can get. I hope i can continue to read in this forum and learn of you guys.Thanx (my two cents)

ayalas,

 

80% of your cameras are PTZs? Wow! I would have expected the opposite percentage. We have around 160-170 PTZs, nearly 1/3 of those outdoors, and 800-850 fixed. If you have 150 cameras total, the 80% figure would mean 120 of them are PTZs.

 

What are you using on table games? We have one fixed camera per table and one PTZ for every 2-3 tables. I don't know what regulatory authority you have, but the NIGC MICS (Minimum Internal Control Standards) requires either one fixed camera per table and one PTZ for every four tables or one PTZ for every two tables. I don't particularly agree with the second option. That pretty much always leaves one table with no camera coverage if both tables are open.

 

Although I have expressed previously that fixed cameras cannot take the place of a PTZ, the opposite is also true. Reliance on PTZs alone can cause its own set of problems. PTZs invariably are pointed in the wrong direction when something happens so my theory of casino camera coverage is to cover pretty much every square inch of gaming floor with fixed cameras and install PTZs spaced in such a way that they can be aimed and zoomed on any area too. That allows every incident to be captured from its start (albeit possibly with lower resolution), and a PTZ zoomed in once Surveillance is aware of it.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Guest

[survtech 0]

As far as HDcctv (or HD-SDI) goes, please understand that Matt and I were among the first people to express an early interest in the technology. The HDcctv Alliance's website used to have a forum (I don't know if it still does). Matt and I were the first non-Alliance posters to express interest in, and ask questions about, the technology (questions, I might add, that were never satisfactorily answered). And therein lies much of the problem we have with HDcctv. This problem has been the bane of the HDcctv Alliance since day one.

 

Many of us have a problem with people claiming to introduce a so-called "disruptive technology" without providing facts and figures to back up their wild claims. The HDcctv Alliance in general, and Todd Rockoff in particular, have been vociferous in their marketing statements but curiously silent when presented with legitimate questions about the technology and its capabilities. Even simple questions like "what is the distance HDcctv signals can be sent" are often answered with vague statements saying that some future version will allow longer than 100m on RG59/U or twisted-pair.

 

The article about the Golden Gate Hotel and Casino points out a serious problem the HDcctv Alliance has with name recognition and is the likely cause of Todd's "testiness" on the subject. Many writers and companies in the industry use the term "HD" to describe any device capable of delivering higher resolution than analog and "CCTV" to describe any security cameras. The two terms are often combined in some way. IndigoVision is one example - they describe their system as HD CCTV.

 

This continues the confusion in many; I believe that includes tomcctv. HD CCTV (or HD-CCTV, etc.) is not the same as HDcctv. Most HD is megapixel IP. (To be more accurate, 720p is not actually megapixel, but I include it in my post.) IP is being deployed in many places, including a few casinos. Likely that is what tomcctv is referring to in non-US casinos since HDcctv is barely in the early stages of its initial availability. Like I said, IndigoVision (a major player in europe and fairly popular in the U.S.) is IP; not HDcctv.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Guest

[survtech 0]

ayalas,

 

To get back to your original question, If you are considering going IP, there are a number of potential problems to deal with:

 

1. Infrastructure: What is your current infrastructure, coax? You will either have to replace it with CAT5/6, keeping in mind 100m distance limitations to the switches, or utilize products like the Veracity HIGHWIRE to place IP on coax. If you currently use analog twisted-pair, you will also have to change your infrastructure to use 4 pairs per camera or a device to put IP on single twisted-pair. Either option adds $$$ on top of the camera prices.

 

2. Network: Many will try to convince you to use basic unmanaged network switches. I believe that is a mistake. Casinos require 100% video transmission uptime at high quality settings and frame rates. Cheap switches often don't meet that requirement. High quality switches add to the cost of a system.

 

3. Coverage: Many in the IP industry point to how megapixel cameras can supposedly replace multiple analog cameras. I don't believe that is necessarily true. While there are applications that can utilize megapixel cameras more efficiently, proper camera coverage of say, rows of slot machines would be comprimised by such use. No camera can see through solid items so trying to replace a number of cameras aimed down rows of slots with one covering multiple rows would prevent seeing the fronts of many machines.

 

4. Reliability: One seldom-mentioned problem I forsee with IP and megapixel IP cameras is equipment longevity. We have many analog cameras that have operated flawlessly for well over 10 years. Nearly every IP megapixel camera I've seen gets HOT! Heat is a major contributor to shortened life of electronics equipment. Something to consider.

 

If, by chance, you are considering deploying HDcctv, be aware of the technology's limitations; including lack of much available product, lack of backing by major industry companies and lack of testing in real-world applications. I've said many times: "it's OK to be on the cutting edge of technology as long as it isn't the bleeding edge".