casino set from analog to ip

[ayalas 0]

Hello

ok i don't know much about ip cams, we are working on a casino where they want to make the switch from analog\dvrs to ip cams\nvr. My first question is the hotel and casino have there network should the casino have there own network apart just for the cams or can it be share? second will they have to change all the cams that are already there in Oder for them to work on a network\nvr. Third can any one show me a small basic layout on how to put this together from cam to cat6 cable to PoE-capable switch and so on. Like i said im new to ip cams and i need all the help i can get before i can approach them with this new layout.Thanks ahead of time.

[Soundy 1]

Hello

ok i don't know much about ip cams, we are working on a casino where they want to make the switch from analog\dvrs to ip cams\nvr.

They're aware there's a potential latency issue with IP cams, yes? As in, the live view you're watching is delayed by anywhere up to one second (depending on the camera, NVR, network, and various settings)? Our resident casino expert (survtech) often brings this up as a drawback to IP cams in casinos... something to make sure management is aware of before you forge ahead. May matter to them, may not... but they should be aware.

 

My first question is the hotel and casino have there network should the casino have there own network apart just for the cams or can it be share?

Any more than two or three cameras, you'll want to have a dedicated network for them.

 

second will they have to change all the cams that are already there in Oder for them to work on a network\nvr.

Not necessarily. Video encoders can be used to "convert" existing analog cameras into IP streams. You'll still be limited to VGA or 4CIF resolution from those cameras, but that would allow you to switch to an NVR first, attach the existing cameras to it, then upgrade the cameras to megapixel over time.

 

Third can any one show me a small basic layout on how to put this together from cam to cat6 cable to PoE-capable switch and so on. Like i said im new to ip cams and i need all the help i can get before i can approach them with this new layout.Thanks ahead of time.

 

This is a basic layout I use on several sites that are running a mix of analog and IP cameras...it keeps the cameras all on their own network, but links into the corporate network as well to give them remote access...

 

 

Another option to look at is HDcctv, which seems particularly suited to casino use: it uses existing coax (within limits), and streams uncompressed HD video in realtime (no compression, no latency). Catches are, it's just entering the market, so there's not a huge selection of equipment out there yet... and despite claims of using existing wiring, does appear to still have issues if the wiring is of low quality. But still, something to consider.

[alpine0000 0]

any one show me a small basic layout on how to put this together from cam to cat6 cable to PoE-capable switch and so on

 

Not sure if this will help or not, but here is a very basic diagram of my home setup that I just threw together, which involves IP and Analog cameras. Click on the image for the larger sized view so you can see it better.

 

Just run the analog cameras through an encoder, and then plug them into your switch. WIth the IP cameras, just plug them right into your switch. I have all of my CCTV-related stuff plugged into their own POE Switch.

 

Since this is a casino, I'm assuming there will be a lot of cameras, which translates to a lot of network traffic, so I would say to use a seperate segment just for the cameras. Then again, I'm no expert.

 

[SDM Group 0]

Casino surveillance follows strict criteria such as Nevada Gaming Board regulations on what is required, therefore I would strongly suggest bringing in an expert.

 

Items covered but not limited too are FPS, Coverage requirements, Storage etc.

[Soundy 1]

^That's a good point - you should check with your local gaming commission/authorities to see what minimum requirements there are (if any) in your area.

[ayalas 0]

Thanks for the advice this casino is in puerto rico its a small casino they dont have gaming requirements as strike as in the states. But this is why i would like to get as much knowledge as i can so i can present this to them and they are ready to make the switch i can sub-contract but i do need to know as much about this as i can. How do the license on ip cam work if there's a total of 180 cams.

[alpine0000 0]

How do the license on ip cam work if there's a total of 180 cams.

 

It depends on what VMS you are using. Usually you are paying for licenses to use the VMS, so you'd have to research different VMS software and see which is best for you. I.E. Milestone, Avigilon, Exacq, Pelco, etc... They all are priced differently, and may have a different approach to how their licensing works.

[ayalas 0]

oh, sorry for the amateur questions but we all being here gots to start somewhere. with the licence this is for live view and on storage is there another one or is one for all. And does each cam have its own license. Thanks.

[alpine0000 0]

oh, sorry for the amateur questions but we all being here gots to start somewhere. with the licence this is for live view and on storage is there another one or is one for all. And does each cam have its own license. Thanks.

 

One license will cover live view and storage. Most VMS's I've seen charges per camera, but I believe there are some who may charge one fee for "up to" a certain number of cameras? I could be wrong. Maybe some of the more experienced guys will chime in.

 

Ive seen prices range from free, to $40 per camera, to $150 per camera, and everywhere in between.

 

I'd probably talk to a professional and tell them your requirements and budget per camera license, and have them recommend something.

 

My VMS knowledge is very limited compared to some of the guys around here on the forum.

[tomcctv 190]

oh, sorry for the amateur questions but we all being here gots to start somewhere. with the licence this is for live view and on storage is there another one or is one for all. And does each cam have its own license. Thanks.

 

 

Hi. ayalas. what has your customer asked for as in what will the cameras be doing. watching around the casino / entry/exit/ bar area. or to watch the table. ip will be too slow to watch what goes on at the table.

[ayalas 0]

tomcctv what they are most interested in is on the tables what they have now they cant make the cards at times or see how many chips are on the table unless they zoom in at live view but on play back when they most need it is when it gets harder to make out. Is hdcctv a better option for them i know the price is higher but right know they are open to all. All there equitment as of now is pelco matrix\keyboard\ptz and there dvrs are computer base with geovision running on them and a minicom system to call the dvrs.

[tomcctv 190]

tomcctv what they are most interested in is on the tables what they have now they cant make the cards at times or see how many chips are on the table unless they zoom in at live view but on play back when they most need it is when it gets harder to make out. Is hdcctv a better option for them i know the price is higher but right know they are open to all. All there equitment as of now is pelco matrix\keyboard\ptz and there dvrs are computer base with geovision running on them and a minicom system to call the dvrs.

 

 

yes HD is the way most casinos have gone. you need the best possable FPS on the casino table.

 

i would say to start looking at avigilon HD. http://www.avigilon.com/?gclid=CIGkgfGJjagCFQoZ4QoduwdACg

[survtech 0]

yes HD is the way most casinos have gone. you need the best possable FPS on the casino table.

Actually, very few casinos have deployed any IP cameras and far fewer have totally gone IP. Most who have are brand new properties.

 

The cost to convert a property to all-IP is immense: the entire video delivery infrastructure has to be changed or devices like the Veracity HIGHWIRE used. In the first case, where does the casino put the networking equipment? There is rarely room for additional IDF on the casino floor and best practice requires that mission-critical areas like Surveillance IDF closets be cooled, UPS'd and have severely restricted access.

 

In the case of the HIGHWIRE and competing products, figure on them adding $200 to $600 to the cost of each camera.

 

Also keep in mind that most existing IDF space in casinos is set up to accomodate computer workstations, POS, slot machines, ATMs/kiosks and the like that sit on the floor while cameras are installed in the ceiling. Different paths for the data.

 

For table games, 720p (1280x720) in 16:9 or XVGA (1024x768) in 4:3 is usually sufficient resolution. Higher resolution cameras often suffer from poor low light performance and table lighting can be a problem in some casinos. HD cameras have the same problems with improper lighting as analog cameras. If the image is washed out by improper or poorly placed table lighting, no camera will be able to provide useable video.

 

Other areas that could benefit from higher definition are: WAP slot banks (requiring less cameras per bank), cash handling/counting operations, POS and cash drawers and area overviews.

 

HD resolution typically provides significantly reduced or no real benefits in more general casino applications like hallways, slot banks (if covered by suitable quantity and quality analog cameras), restaurants, food prep areas and other less critical areas.

 

In addition, no HD camera can substitute for a good PTZ with a quality zoom lens. John Honovich and I agree that it would take at least hundreds of megapixels and many petabytes of recorded data to duplicate the capabilities of a good PTZ. Ignore the claims of 180 degree and 360 degree camera manufacturers!

 

For that matter, PTZ cameras should never be used as a substitute for fixed cameras. They are often pointed in the wrong direction when an incident happens.

[tomcctv 190]

yes HD is the way most casinos have gone. you need the best possable FPS on the casino table.

Actually, very few casinos have deployed any IP cameras and far fewer have totally gone IP. Most who have are brand new properties.

 

 

Hi survtech. i was talking about pure HD system not ip. Unlike IP systems where compression takes place at the camera a HD/CCTV digital video recorder will make the decision on the resolution and quality of recorded video images. This allows for direct display of true HD images in 720p and 1080p and also the recording of images in resolutions at anything from QCIF right through to 1080p.

 

Recordings may also be compressed as usual but recordings may also be made uncompressed which means that the image recorded is identical to the image transmitted from the camera and displayed on the monitor. This is a true end to end HD CCTV system.

 

granted there are not many casino systems on the market and the ones that are carry a big price. the good thing about HD is you can use the existing coax when doing upgrades.

[survtech 0]

So you're talking about HDcctv or HD-SDI? Those systems are definitely not ready for prime time in the casino business. Very few cameras are available; DVRs tend to be aimed at small deployments; the very few switchers on the market cost an arm and a leg, have weird configurations like 4x4 or 8x2 and are ill-suited to CCTV; being primarily designed for broadcast TV.

 

Also, there are very few HD-SDI monitors and their cost is amazing (example: JVC DT-R17L4DU 17in R-Series HD LCD 16:9 is $2,500) so the signal must be run through the DVR's circuitry and fed to a VGA monitor. The DVRs are very basic and unsophisticated.

 

I don't know which casinos you are dealing with but I would venture that most casinos would be very hesitant about deploying an unproven technology in critical applications. That's just asking for trouble. As I've said many times: cutting edge often becomes bleeding edge!

 

You may be able to use existing coax but that depends on the distances involved and type. I find it hilarious that the HDcctv crowd continually hypes this supposed benefit out of one side of their mouths while saying out the other side that it requires high-quality RG59 to go 100 meters and if you want to go farther you have to use RG6 or RG11. Not only does that mean replacing existing cables anyway but what casino would want to pay the price for RG11; both in terms of cost, space requirements and difficulty to "pull"?

 

Further, many casinos have deployed CAT5 with baluns for analog cameras. HDcctv cannot use this medium so the cabling would have to be changed anyway.

[thewireguys 3]

Carl is correct HDcctv has a long way to go. I stopped by many booths at ISC with company's showing HDcctv and I found out some very interesting information. Not something I will be selling for a long time.

[tomcctv 190]

So you're talking about HDcctv or HD-SDI? Those systems are definitely not ready for prime time in the casino business. Very few cameras are available; DVRs tend to be aimed at small deployments; the very few switchers on the market cost an arm and a leg, have weird configurations like 4x4 or 8x2 and are ill-suited to CCTV; being primarily designed for broadcast TV.

 

Also, there are very few HD-SDI monitors and their cost is amazing (example: JVC DT-R17L4DU 17in R-Series HD LCD 16:9 is $2,500) so the signal must be run through the DVR's circuitry and fed to a VGA monitor. The DVRs are very basic and unsophisticated.

 

I don't know which casinos you are dealing with but I would venture that most casinos would be very hesitant about deploying an unproven technology in critical applications. That's just asking for trouble. As I've said many times: cutting edge often becomes bleeding edge!

 

 

hi survtech. the system i am talking about if approved by Casino Control Commission made in the uk and shipped to the USA on average 30 unit a month.

 

Broadcast quality images, unmatched in the CCTV recording market. Live images and playback images look the same!

 

Sets new industry standard record rates with massive image processing power, up to 1600 fps in one box.

 

Purpose designed hardware and software designed for 24/7/365 operation in Security environments.

 

Multiple search methods. Find any incident quickly and easily with the minimum of fuss

 

Worlds first complete range of 9-64 channel real time recorders capable of 25fps on every input.

 

Smart video multi zone logic based video motion detection as standard, far less prone to false triggering than normal video motion detection

 

Capable of broadcast quality real time image transmission over Ethernet networks.

[survtech 0]

the system i am talking about if approved by Casino Control Commission made in the uk and shipped to the USA on average 30 unit a month.

What Casino Control Commission? If you are talking about U.S. tribal casinos, in many states (especially true in CA) each tribe has its own Gaming Commission. They would have to approve any new technology. There is no such thing as a standard set of regulations for all gaming venues.

 

Broadcast quality images, unmatched in the CCTV recording market. Live images and playback images look the same!

Then you must be using a huge recording bitrate. HDcctv is no different from IP megapixel in that respect.

 

Sets new industry standard record rates with massive image processing power, up to 1600 fps in one box.

 

Purpose designed hardware and software designed for 24/7/365 operation in Security environments.

 

Multiple search methods. Find any incident quickly and easily with the minimum of fuss

 

Worlds first complete range of 9-64 channel real time recorders capable of 25fps on every input.

 

Smart video multi zone logic based video motion detection as standard, far less prone to false triggering than normal video motion detection

 

Capable of broadcast quality real time image transmission over Ethernet networks.

Are you certain your name is not Todd Rockoff? Some of your statements are quite misleading.

 

For one, our Honeywell Enterprise VMS/NVR is capable of at least the same level of performance you are claiming. We run all cameras at 30fps. By choice (but not by spec necessity), we are recording 960fps per server but could easily run at double that; we just chose not to due to the possibility of losing up to 64 cameras if a server goes down. Our system has been recording 30fps / up to 960 total fps/server 7/24/365 for 8 years. Many other systems can duplicate that capability, including Dallmeier, NICE Vision, Synectics, Geutebruck, etc. Nothing unique there!

 

The rest of your claims are equally suspect, as there are many systems out there that meet, or exceed, your statements.

[tomcctv 190]

Are you certain your name is not Todd Rockoff? Some of your statements are quite misleading.

 

 

survtech. they are not my quotes. (dont understand why ops get so personal) honeywell uk/ dedicated micro / and dowshu are as you say big in the casino industry. all of which are (if you did not know) are uk companies.

 

i was only making a point about a HDcctv being in the market place and is used both here and the usa. and dowshu is the only system on the market place with 5 year warranty.

 

 

survtech if your not happy with the spec (not mine but from the company) dont have a go at me talk to them.

 

i was just reponding to a post . that there is HDcctv systems out there.

[survtech 0]

survtech. they are not my quotes. (dont understand why ops get so personal) honeywell uk/ dedicated micro / and dowshu are as you say big in the casino industry. all of which are (if you did not know) are uk companies.

 

i was only making a point about a HDcctv being in the market place and is used both here and the usa. and dowshu is the only system on the market place with 5 year warranty.

 

 

survtech if your not happy with the spec (not mine but from the company) dont have a go at me talk to them.

 

i was just reponding to a post . that there is HDcctv systems out there.

Not your quotes? Who said "Live images and playback images look the same!", Dowshu?

 

Look, I understand the theory of HDcctv quite well; having been a huge thorn in the HDcctv Alliance's paw for well over a year. My points are still valid if you believe what you posted. It's not a personal thing - my motto is "money talks, BS walks" no matter the source.

 

1. In order to have as high a quality of playback as live with HDcctv, just like with any other system, the compression would have to be very low; making the recorded bitrate very high. HDcctv uses the same compression as IP.

 

2. "Honeywell is a Fortune 100 company with a workforce of approximately 128,000, of which approximately 58,000 are employed in the United States.[1] The company is headquartered in Morristown, New Jersey. Its current chief executive officer is David M. Cote. The company and its corporate predecessors were part of the Dow Jones Industrial Average Index from December 7, 1925 until February 9, 2008._ - Wikipedia

 

3. You didn't respond to my other comments regarding gaming commissions. What, exactly, is this "Casino Control Commission"? Are you referring to the New Jersey Casino Control Commission?

[tomcctv 190]

Not your quotes? Who said "Live images and playback images look the same!", Dowshu?

 

 

 

no survtech its not my quote. LIKE i said what i posted was from there site. what is it with everyone on the forum lately everyone just once to argue.

 

again all as i have done is state that there are HDcctv systems out there. and the spec i posted was from THERE site they have been in the casino industry since 2003. this is the part of there site WHO SAID LIVE IMAGES AND PLAY BACK IMAGES LOOK THE SAME.

 

 

Dowshu Key Features

All Dowshu digital video recorders have hardware that is installer, service, and upgrade friendly.

The ranges are feature rich and the focus is on useful features that assist operators and system users. In particular the feature sets are designed to be easy to use and very intuitive, saving time and avoiding user frustration.

 

Broadcast quality images, unmatched in the CCTV recording market. Live images and playback images look the same! Worlds first complete range of 9-64 channel real time recorders capable of 25fps on every input.

Sets new industry standard record rates with massive image processing power, up to 1600 fps in one box. Huge onboard storage capability for long term video storage at real time record rates.

Purpose designed hardware and software designed for 24/7/365 operation in Security environments. Smart video multi zone logic based video motion detection as standard, far less prone to false triggering than normal video motion detection

Multiple search methods. Find any incident quickly and easily with the minimum of fuss. Capable of broadcast quality real time image transmission over Ethernet networks.

CCTV industries first 5 Year manufacturers warranty on digital video recorder products.

[survtech 0]

what is it with everyone on the forum lately everyone just once to argue.

Funny, it appeared to me as if you started the argument:

 

yes HD is the way most casinos have gone. you need the best possable FPS on the casino table.

That was your statement, was it not?

 

Actually, very few casinos have deployed any IP cameras and far fewer have totally gone IP. Most who have are brand new properties.

Hi survtech. i was talking about pure HD system not ip.

So you're talking about HDcctv or HD-SDI? Those systems are definitely not ready for prime time in the casino business.

the system i am talking about if approved by Casino Control Commission made in the uk and shipped to the USA on average 30 unit a month.

 

Broadcast quality images, unmatched in the CCTV recording market. Live images and playback images look the same!...

No mention that you were copy/pasting a manufacturer's advertising blurb!

 

So, you post an incorrect statement that most casinos have gone HD, which is far from true. Then when questioned about that statement in regards to megapixel IP, which few casinos deploy, you point to a different technology that is not readily available and even less likely to have been deployed in more than a small handful of casinos.

 

You then proceed to post a list of benefits of this technology without stating that you copy/pasted it from a manufacturer's blurb, then accuse me of causing problems?

[Campbell 0]

Survtech... you mentioned earlier that you believe a decent PTZ can take the place of many megapixel IPs. With the current DPTZ capabilities of both analytics software and the resolution of the cameras themselves.... on what basis do you make this statement? Not having a go, just curious as to why you believe that a PTZ (which can surely only focus on 1 thing at a time, can do a better job of a high res camera which you can pick and choose what you want to zoom in on without losing the overall picture)

[survtech 0]

I didn't say that a PTZ can take the place of many megapixel cameras; I said that megapixel cameras; especially 180 and 360 degree cameras, cannot take the place of a PTZ. The issue is pixels per foot (or to make the math simpler, pixels per degree). A Pelco DD427 Spectra IV dome drive, for instance, has a 27x zoom. At its maximum zoom of 91.8mm, it sees a 2.3 degree angle of view. To further simplify things, at 4CIF that would be 278 horizontal pixels per degree (640/2.3=278). Probably a bit less, because Pelco claims "angle of view"; which is probably diagonal, rather than horizontal.

 

A 10mp, 16:9 imager is 4288x2416 pixels. Assuming a 180 degree horizontal field of view, 4288/180= 24 horizontal pixels per degree.

 

Obviously, a PTZ has to be manned to be of much use but assuming it is (and it is in casinos), an analog PTZ can be zoomed in to see a much sharper image of an incident. To get approximately the same horizontal resolution from a fixed 180 degree camera would require more than 11 times the number of horizontal pixels.

 

By the way, that would also apply to vertical pixels, but I'm too lazy to do the math for that. Suffice it to say, 180 and 360 degree fixed cameras would need hundreds of megapixels to be able to zoom in on a scene that an analog PTZ would handle with aplomb.

[tomcctv 190]

So, you post an incorrect statement that most casinos have gone HD, which is far from true. Then when questioned about that statement in regards to megapixel IP, which few casinos deploy, you point to a different technology that is not readily available and even less likely to have been deployed in more than a small handful of casinos.

 

 

am in a differant country. so yes HD is in most uk/ france/germany / spain. is being used in a big way. and like i said also now in the US. another uk based company installed a 100 full HD camera system at Golden Gate Hotel & Casino. which is the first casino in the US to go full HD