Need help on a big project!

[oppositeofh20 0]

Hey guys, I'm trying to setup an 8 camera system to cover the outside perimeter of a

200 x 75 foot land area.

 

I drew a little picture to try to give the general idea. The green cameras are the optional ones

 

 

Ideally we will have 8 cameras to save costs, but a 10 camera system would be better.

 

The cameras must be: We were thinking of going with dome cameras.

 

- Vandal Proof

- Have decent nightvision (there are lights on at night. About 200 watts for every 2 cameras)

- Motion detection

 

I've been doing some research, seems that a 2.8mm lens will give an 81 degree field of vision, which is not enough to fully cover the area with 8 cameras. Can someone recommend a camera with a wider field of vision, if they exist?

 

These will be in Candian winter where conditions are in the -20C sometimes. Will I need a heater for the cameras for the cold winters?

 

 

Questions:

 

- What is the range of motion detection? I'm guessing it depends on the camera, but on average.

 

- The max wiring will be about 200 feet. I am undecided if it will be easier to use RG59 with 18/2 wire or cat 5 cable (using 3 for power and 1 for video, or whatever is better).

 

 

And the main questions:

 

- Is it possible to do this without any professional help?

 

- Can anyone recommend any sites to buy equipment and ship to Canada?

 

I know I have a lot of questions and I appreciate all answers.

 

Thank you all.

[ak357 0]

Hey guys, I'm trying to setup an 8 camera system to cover the outside perimeter of a

These will be in Candian winter where conditions are in the -20C sometimes. Will I need a heater for the cameras for the cold winters?

 

And the main questions:

 

- Is it possible to do this without any professional help?

 

- Can anyone recommend any sites to buy equipment and ship to Canada?

 

I know I have a lot of questions and I appreciate all answers.

 

Thank you all.

Where are u in Canada ?

I am in Alberta

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

I've been doing some research, seems that a 2.8mm lens will give an 81 degree field of vision, which is not enough to fully cover the area with 8 cameras. Can someone recommend a camera with a wider field of vision, if they exist?

 

If you are aiming for a field of vision wider than 81 degree's ? Your Surveillance objective is likely pure monitoring at no more than 10 meters. A human target will likely not even fill 10% of the monitor size at anything beyond 10m (32ft) with a 2.8mm lens. which is the minimum accepted for monitoring.

 

I have managed to get something of a reasonable picture under those circumstances by going up very high, about 6m (18ft) -but that was less than desirable, a budget enforced solution.

 

That solution will purely alert the observer to the fact that a target is present, it will likely tell you nothing about the target.

 

Motion detection is a form of video analytics - it is notoriously unreliable outdoors with a cheap camera.

 

I am wondering whether your objective is really to get such a low level of detail, unless you are only intending the camera to cover say up to 15ft at that width of angle?

[oppositeofh20 0]

Where are u in Canada ?

I am in Alberta

 

Montreal, Quebec

[oppositeofh20 0]

I've been doing some research, seems that a 2.8mm lens will give an 81 degree field of vision, which is not enough to fully cover the area with 8 cameras. Can someone recommend a camera with a wider field of vision, if they exist?

 

If you are aiming for a field of vision wider than 81 degree's ? Your Surveillance objective is likely pure monitoring at no more than 10 meters. A human target will likely not even fill 10% of the monitor size at anything beyond 10m (32ft) with a 2.8mm lens. which is the minimum accepted for monitoring.

 

I have managed to get something of a reasonable picture under those circumstances by going up very high, about 6m (18ft) -but that was less than desirable, a budget enforced solution.

 

That solution will purely alert the observer to the fact that a target is present, it will likely tell you nothing about the target.

 

Motion detection is a form of video analytics - it is notoriously unreliable outdoors with a cheap camera.

 

I am wondering whether your objective is really to get such a low level of detail, unless you are only intending the camera to cover say up to 15ft at that width of angle?

 

Thx for the input, the objective of the system is for monitoring. I am aware that identification of targets will be nearly impossible unless they are very close to the camera.

 

The cameras will be mounted at around 12 ft high on the peak of the greenhouses. The main goal of the system is to discourage vandalism and scare people off. Identification of targets is not a top priority. We have a pretty decent budget (around $5000) for a 8 channel DVR, 8 cameras, wiring, etc.

 

Another question: It would be nice to be alerted when there is movement on the property, either by text, phone call, etc. And we would like to remotely view the alerted camera on lets say on Ipad or whatever. Is this possible?

 

Once again, thank you for any help.

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

 

Another question: It would be nice to be alerted when there is movement on the property, either by text, phone call, etc. And we would like to remotely view the alerted camera on lets say on Ipad or whatever. Is this possible?

 

Once again, thank you for any help.

 

Thanks for covering my concerns in the first part, adequately!

 

Yes your requirements are possible. The standard analog system shares this almost standard functionality with numerous other DVR's out there. However with the issues already discussed the motion detection on the dvr with those cameras may not be the most reliable method.

 

Have you considered some kind of PIR beam , which could be wired to your recorder or IP cameras if that's the way you are going! In addition to being messaged, emailed and sent a snap shot of the event, an external alert can also be hard wired into the system.

 

Basically everything you ask in this part of the question is almost a standard feature on all dvr's - so yes it is possible.

[ak357 0]

 

Another question: It would be nice to be alerted when there is movement on the property, either by text, phone call, etc. And we would like to remotely view the alerted camera on lets say on Ipad or whatever. Is this possible?

 

 

If you don't mind IP based systems

have a look at VideoIQ

very nice to use for Alerting etc...

[tomcctv 190]

hi. a cctv system can be a expensive asset if you just want to monitor. the first thing you are going to say once you have installed your system and you get an event is :::::: i wish i had a better image. unless your system is monitored 24/7 then i would look at either using 1 or 2 of your cameras for entry exit points (at least try get make model of car) or an image you can use of a person.

 

also motion detection does not work when activated by cameras and you also get the same false alarms with pir sensors. you are always better with the likes of optex beams.

 

 

you may want to install your system yourself but i would take the time to talk with a engineer (plenty on here from canada) it could save you money

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

hi. a cctv system can be a expensive asset if you just want to monitor. the first thing you are going to say once you have installed your system and you get an event is :::::: i wish i had a better image. unless your system is monitored 24/7 then i would look at either using 1 or 2 of your cameras for entry exit points (at least try get make model of car) or an image you can use of a person.

 

also motion detection does not work when activated by cameras and you also get the same false alarms with pir sensors. you are always better with the likes of optex beams.

 

 

you may want to install your system yourself but i would take the time to talk with a engineer (plenty on here from canada) it could save you money

 

Just to add to what's been said above, the divide between monitoring (10% screen estate) and identification is quite wide. With the specs you envisage you are right on the boundary of minimum accepted monitoring parameters., bordering on almost unusable images.

 

There are many measures used - but mine happens to be as follows:

 

Monitor - detect- Recognize - Identify

 

Monitor - following the movement of targets whose presence is already known, without the requirement to search for them.

 

Detect - following an alert, the operator can determine to a high degree of certainty whether a person is visible to him.

 

Recognize: Is able to say with a high degree of certainty , whether the person being observed is the same person as someone he has seen before.

 

Identify - sufficient detail to be able to establish the identity of a person beyond reasonable doubt.

 

It is not a simple step from Monitor to Identify

 

If your sole purpose of installing the cameras is "deterrent" - this could even be achieved with some really large dummy cameras.

 

I think the above advise is spot on, you will invariably regret providing for "monitoring" only!

[oppositeofh20 0]

Okay guys, thx for the input once again. It seems that the 8 cameras spread out is not the best setup.

 

Maybe a different option would be to put 2-3 good cameras at the anticipated entry points and try to identify with those and maybe put up a few dummy cameras in the other spots as a scare tactic.

 

I looked into the VideoIQ surveillance and really like the idea of having a few IP cameras that have the recorder inside of them. And then have a motion detection alert when there is movement and then I can then view the video remotely. (hopefully with a 3G iphone). Is that how it works?

 

I am currently on dial-up so reasearching is a big task when I can load videos and web pages quickly.

[rory 0]

also motion detection does not work when activated by cameras

I think you need to elaborate on this incorrect statement.

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

Opposite can we take a step backwards

 

 

You have said that you need to cover the perimeter of this complex.

 

Usually we consider that sort of statement as a pre-determined solution and not an operational requirement.

 

Would you be able to change your statement a little by rewording:

 

Why do you want to cover the perimeter of that complex -----I usually try to get my customers to restructure this sentence and start it like this:

 

We need the capability to for example: be alerted to a breach of the complex perimeter by a person/s.

can be drilled down: We need the capability to prevent a breach of the complex perimeter by a person.

 

You only really can start to consider cameras and hardware specification once you have a clearly defined

operational requirement.

 

You will notice that restructuring in such a manner will actually - in many instances, determine whether CCTV

is in fact the best solution for the requirement.

 

For instance there are many systems that will alert you to such a breach, it is not limited to CCTV. A good

perimeter wall will be more effective at preventing the breach than CCTV would.

 

It all comes down to how well one structures the initial operational requirement and avoids framing it in such

a fashion that it actually constitutes a predisposed solution.

 

I gather that you want to be alerted to a perimeter breach and be able to investigate the circumstances of the alert.

 

Which would translate as follows:

 

We need the capability to be alerted to a perimeter breach

We need the capability to investigate the alert (As much as i try to avoid active surveillance in most instances - investigating the cause and circumstances of an alert is one situation that a PTZ camera handles very well)

 

Have a look at those requirements and let that guide you as to the potential solutions - don't get fixated

on one component such as CCTV only!

[tomcctv 190]

also motion detection does not work when activated by cameras

I think you need to elaborate on this incorrect statement.

 

 

 

if you have motion set on your dvr to be triggered via your camera .... then it does not work .... or unreliable. or gives false alarms. both of which i mean does not work.

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

also motion detection does not work when activated by cameras

I think you need to elaborate on this incorrect statement.

 

 

 

if you have motion set on your dvr to be triggered via your camera .... then it does not work .... or unreliable. or gives false alarms. both of which i mean does not work.

 

 

I think that's what raised the question --- MD gives false positives, just as PIR's and all other detection systems have a tendency to false positives.

 

The benefit with MD intelligence in a CCTV system is that it provides visual verification of alerts.

 

If the MD is set up properly and is not left to cover the entire field of vision of the camera by default, false positives can be greatly controlled, but probably never be eliminated entirely.

 

So perhaps it was slip of the tongue to state that it won't work - just not an intelligence that one should stake their life on, which is true of most any detection device.

[thewireguys 3]

Okay guys, thx for the input once again. It seems that the 8 cameras spread out is not the best setup.

 

Maybe a different option would be to put 2-3 good cameras at the anticipated entry points and try to identify with those and maybe put up a few dummy cameras in the other spots as a scare tactic.

 

I looked into the VideoIQ surveillance and really like the idea of having a few IP cameras that have the recorder inside of them. And then have a motion detection alert when there is movement and then I can then view the video remotely. (hopefully with a 3G iphone). Is that how it works?

 

I am currently on dial-up so reasearching is a big task when I can load videos and web pages quickly.

 

Yes you can view VideoIQ cameras on your Iphone/Ipad

[tomcctv 190]

So perhaps it was slip of the tongue to state that it won't work

 

 

Another question: It would be nice to be alerted when there is movement on the property, either by text, phone call, etc. And we would like to remotely view the alerted camera on lets say on Ipad or whatever. Is this possible?

 

 

 

not a slip of the tongue ill stand by it. cameras to be used at alert motion back to dvr to send report or alert does not work hence why i said beams. also beams are more reliable than PIR (which give the same problem false alarms)

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

So perhaps it was slip of the tongue to state that it won't work

 

 

Another question: It would be nice to be alerted when there is movement on the property, either by text, phone call, etc. And we would like to remotely view the alerted camera on lets say on Ipad or whatever. Is this possible?

 

 

 

not a slip of the tongue ill stand by it. cameras to be used at alert motion back to dvr to send report or alert does not work hence why i said beams. also beams are more reliable than PIR (which give the same problem false alarms)

 

What technology do those beams use to detect motion?

Those beams don't give any false positives?

[tomcctv 190]

What technology do those beams use to detect motion?

Those beams don't give any false positives?

 

 

 

hi beams dont detect motion. works by braking beam

 

 

[tesc_cctvpro 0]

What technology do those beams use to detect motion?

Those beams don't give any false positives?

 

 

 

hi beams dont detect motion. works by braking beam

 

 

 

LOL --- is that dog standing still?

[oppositeofh20 0]

 

We need the capability to for example: be alerted to a breach of the complex perimeter by a person/s.

can be drilled down: We need the capability to prevent a breach of the complex perimeter by a person.

 

A good perimeter wall will be more effective at preventing the breach than CCTV would.

 

I gather that you want to be alerted to a perimeter breach and be able to investigate the circumstances of the alert.

 

Which would translate as follows:

 

We need the capability to be alerted to a perimeter breach

We need the capability to investigate the alert (As much as i try to avoid active surveillance in most instances - investigating the cause and circumstances of an alert is one situation that a PTZ camera handles very well)

 

You are 100% on the money with all of these statements. Our first idea to cover the perimeter was by using IR beams and now that I think about it, this might be the best solution to alert us of intruders.

 

Would, lets say 2 PTZ camera be enough to cover most of the perimeter if a breach were to happen?

 

I'm gonna do some more research and ask you more question. Thank for all the help so far.

[oppositeofh20 0]

What technology do those beams use to detect motion?

Those beams don't give any false positives?

 

 

 

hi beams dont detect motion. works by braking beam

 

 

 

This is a very good idea. Do these beams work for lengths of around 200 continuous feet?

I'm having a hard time finding any good information online, can you suggest me a brand or website so I can look more into this? Thanks for the help

[oppositeofh20 0]

Also, I've been looking at [edit by mod-store link removed] for all the prices and spec sheets. Is this a good site? Has anyone ever ordered from here?

 

I'm not sure on the rules. Tell me if we are not allowed to link.

[rory 0]

 

This is a very good idea. Do these beams work for lengths of around 200 continuous feet?

I'm having a hard time finding any good information online, can you suggest me a brand or website so I can look more into this? Thanks for the help

 

Optex have 500' beams

http://www.optexamerica.com/productlist.aspx?l1=2&l2=7

http://www.optexamerica.com/productlist.aspx?l1=2&l2=12

http://www.optexamerica.com/productlist.aspx?l1=2&l2=20

[oppositeofh20 0]

Awesome. Thanks for the links.

 

Also can anyone PM me some trustworthy sites with products that ship to canada.

[thewireguys 3]

VideoIQ is the real deal. PTZs have moving parts that can fail and most PTZ only have a 6 month warranty.

 

You can detect people cars and boats day or night 24/7 (with IR or white light) with minimum false positives. You can trigger events or alerts based off rules. If you just want to receive and email only when 2 people are on your lot for more then 5 seconds you can do that.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1RdBtHcaGw