videoVIP 0 Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) I typically sell lower~mid quality cameras (Speco/Digimerge/EverFocus) as they are in the price range desired by my clients (small businesses/residences). I have a Speco HT7246IHR installed on the front of my shop. I use it as a demo camera when showing clients remote capabilities of various DVR's. The camera is, as I put it "lower mid-range". My cost was about $250. The camera has on-screen set-up capabilities and three ~ four pages of features. Low-light (no IR), 580tvl, etc. (Full specs here: http://www.specotech.com/cart/products/downloads/specs/ht72464750ihr.pdf ). Today, for laughs, I decided to install what I call a "cheapie" camera next to my existing cam. This camera (color bullet) has no label, no manufacturer information, nothing to identify it/specs. This is similar to a camera you'd buy from EBay, Super Circuits or Best Buy. Well...to my surprise, "Mr. Cheapie" has blown away my Speco cam (at least in daylight...waiting for darkness now). I was under the impression you get what you pay for in this arena (at least that's what I tell my clients), but I am kinda dumbfounded. Your comments are appreciated. Edited August 2, 2011 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liveinxs 0 Posted August 2, 2011 I typically sell lower~mid quality cameras (Speco/Digimerge/EverFocus) as they are in the price range desired by my clients (small businesses/residences). I have a Speco HT7246IHR installed on the front of my shop. I use it as a demo camera when showing clients remote capabilities of various DVR's. The camera is, as I put it "lower mid-range". My cost was about $250. The camera has on-screen set-up capabilities and three ~ four pages of features. Low-light (no IR), 580tvl, etc. (Full specs here: http://www.specotech.com/cart/products/downloads/specs/ht72464750ihr.pdf). Today, for laughs, I decided to install what I call a "cheapie" camera next to my existing cam. This camera (color bullet) has no label, no manufacturer information, nothing to identify it/specs. This is similar to a camera you'd buy from EBay, Super Circuits or Best Buy. Well...to my surprise, "Mr. Cheapie" has blown away my Speco cam (at least in daylight...waiting for darkness now). I was under the impression you get what you pay for in this arena (at least that's what I tell my clients), but I am kinda dumbfounded. Your comments are appreciated. now this is gonna be fun, you have just opened a can of worms, that will have some on this site calling for you head, and questioning everything you think you know about CCTV... let me go get the popcorn and watch this thread instead of TV... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
videoVIP 0 Posted August 2, 2011 LOL. That's OK. I expect some flaming. I also belong to a tool site and enjoy reading threads of the warring factions there (SnapOn vs. Harbor Freight vs. Craftsman). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liveinxs 0 Posted August 2, 2011 LOL. That's OK. I expect some flaming. I also belong to a tool site and enjoy reading threads of the warring factions there (SnapOn vs. Harbor Freight vs. Craftsman). you do have a death wish, don't you.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birdman Adam 0 Posted August 3, 2011 You DO get what you pay for... Pay $20, you will get cheap quality. Pay $200 (like 40% overpriced from wholesale) for a CNB VCM-24VF, you will get a quite good picture. Pay $500 (below retail!) for a Panasonic WV-NW484S, you will get a very good picture. There is a sweet spot, and it's around that CNB! What it looks like Speco/Everfocus/etc do is sell a $20 camera at like $250. When you compare it to a $50 camera, it is obviously better! So you do get what you pay for, overpricing excluded! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted August 3, 2011 To begin ... I am not talking about IP cameras ... so now that is covered .... I agree somewhat ... having used alot of cheap and mid range and even $2000 cameras. 1-Cheap $30 IR Bullet with better image than a 600TVL Color IR Varifocal Bullet (neither are TDN), plus easier to install - however, get a cheap $30 camera from another distributor and it could be terrible, been there done that. 2-$200 TDN IR Bullet with a better day image than a $2000 Extreme IR Camera - so its $1500 for the infrared?? 3-I had batches of cheap and expensive cameras where some are better quality than others, some can focus good, some just suck, some go bad some dont. course if you only spend $30 on a camera then one can easily afford to throw it out if it goes bad, compared to say a $2000 camera! But yes to get higher quality you still have to pay for it, the really good quality cameras arent cheap. Also Features cost money - eg. that $30 camera has no settings, you get what you get and thats that, no adjustments can be made for different mounting locations or applications - no BLC adjustments, no AGC settings, IRIS settings, gamma, shutter, etc. Powerful Infrared costs money too, well if its part of a camera. Ive used $350 IR Bullets and their IR still comes nothing close to that from a $1500+ Extreme IR camera. Problem especially these days is the specs mean nothing, absolutely nothing at all, and camera pricing can be up and down like a yo yo depending who puts their name on it. I see the OP mentioned some rebadged brands, in those cases it will always cost more than it is actually worth, though perhaps some clients appreciate the extra long warranties (not me). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soundy 1 Posted August 3, 2011 Well...to my surprise, "Mr. Cheapie" has blown away my Speco cam (at least in daylight...waiting for darkness now). That may prove to be the key... not just how it operates in low light, but in varying conditions in general. As Rory indicates, consistency from one unit the next may be an issue. After-sale support is another big thing you pay extra for (well, most of us do... Rory doesn't) - if that cheap camera dies, good luck getting warranty coverage for it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thewireguys 3 Posted August 3, 2011 I have not good experiences with Speco over the years but that is just me. One thing to keep in mind is support and with bigger names like Panasonic, Sony, Bosch..... you get a company behind you to support you. The cheap cameras may work for now but they could die tomorrow and you have nothing to support you. Example: I just had a Avigilon camera go bad (first one ever). Called support on Monday (which is a holiday for them FYI) They are sent me a new one over night, no questions asked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted August 3, 2011 To be fair to the distributors selling the cheap cameras to dealers ... they do offer pretty good warranty also, least 1-2 years. Not so much when buying from online distributors but from strictly brick and mortar ones they do. Also, Ive had alot more, I mean WAY more expensive cameras go bad than cheap ones. At least thats been my experience, it can differ from one person to the next. That said I had these EX82s on the beach for 10 years now, one finally gave into the elements but it lasted that long through multiple hurricanes. Ofcourse at a nightclub which is also on the ocean side I had $100 Speco bullets (aka, $50 camera) there for 10 years, still working though its under an outdoor roof and the image is next to useless now. Actually hold that though the owner already changed some of them out for $10 bullets he got from somewhere and those went bad within a couple months .... oh well .. yeah thats the ones with all the lines through them Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liveinxs 0 Posted August 3, 2011 very true, warranty is an important consideration when buying cameras, i purchased all CNB cameras, and they come with a 3 year warranty, plus most important, is to buy from an authorized dealer, non-authorized = no warranty... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shockwave199 0 Posted August 3, 2011 I must have missed the 30 dollar cheap cameras when I was shopping- and I'm in the cheap camera club. It seems to me that, since tvl is the selling point they push, a mere 480 is reason enough to pay upwards of 60-70 bucks or so. A 520 or 540? Now you're over 100 bucks. Not sure where 30 bucks comes in. I think I got the cheapest cam you can buy in my q-see package; old technology 400 tvl cmos 1/4" 3.6 bullets with 24 LEDS that throw a mere 30'. And they live up to those specs! LOL! Those cams sold separately are 50 bucks a pop. 200 bucks for a four cam package. THAT is some cheap cameras for what I consider more than impulse buy money. And they've been hanging problem free for a couple of months through ungodly weather- still going strong with that marginal picture! Now I have found a source for what seems to be good quality lower end bullet/dome cams- starting at 520 tvl 1/3" 3.6 with strong leds that actually throw, sony super HAD, with really good shells. And they have higher quality cams too, for upwards of 140 bucks- bullets/domes in the 700 tvl with varifocal and ircuts and such. All still firmly in the 'cheap camera' side of the market, but good quality cameras compared to similar priced, lesser spec cams from q-see, defender, swann, etc. So there's kind of expensive name brand lower spec cheap, and then there's good quality less expensive better spec cheap cams too. It's tough down here in the trenches! Best case scenario is you latch onto any camera that actually continues to work, at any price point. Fifty bucks or a grand, if the picture suits you the next thing is- just continue to function day in day out, good weather and bad. High end cams get high end support. So you pull them down and get support for a fix or a replacement high end cam. At fifty bucks, when a year runs out if it takes a dump you pull it down and get another fifty dollar camera. Dispensable, that's all. And maybe they'll surprise you and hang in there for a number of years. It's all what's in your wallet up front and when you have say an eight cam system, a camera budget adds up mighty quick. Dan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soundy 1 Posted August 3, 2011 Construction and enclosure design/type is a cost factor as well. The VCM-24VF has been mentioned - it's a dual-mount IP66-rated vandal-resistant cast aluminum dome. The DBM-24VF model is the same camera in an indoor-only plastic housing for substantially less. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted August 3, 2011 You pay another $30 for the Q-See name Seriously though the quality difference between a $30 and $60 camera isnt much different, and neither can typically handle any glare very well and time as you resell it to the end user and pop on a warranty of your own then that $60 camera is not a cheap camera anymore .. thats why they still sell the $30 cameras actually I bought a $20 IR bullet off Amazon just to see what it was like ... Plastic build ... had a mic not sure how that worked .... worse image I ever saw ... had to be a $5 camera plus markup Ok so here is that Amazon "toy" (camera 2) Now same area from a CNB Monalisa camera (no Infrared, camera 2) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shockwave199 0 Posted August 3, 2011 You pay another $30 for the Q-See name And there you have it! Btw- I'm not qualified to make comparisons but it seems to me that good cheaper cameras can give good, if not very good picture quality [except for that toy Rory!]. But then you learn to see from someone who knows the subtle, and sometimes not so subtle things that makes a quality camera smoke a cheap camera. I've only gotten into this stuff recently, but from the budget dvr to the budget cameras, you CAN find very goodin's if you shop carefully. As good as premium cameras? Is there any question really? Dan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted August 3, 2011 Lets compare Color Bullet Cameras - these both have Fixed IR Cut Filters, so no Infrared. (A) Cheap Color Bullet 380TVL 3.6mm 1/4" vs (B) KT&C 550TVL Color Bullet 3.6mm 1/3" KT&C model is approx double the cost. NIGHT DAY SUN Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted August 3, 2011 Cheap Color IR vs Cheap Color IR 1/4" from brand (1) vs 1/3" from brand (2) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted August 3, 2011 Standard TDN IR 1/3" Bullet VS Cheap 1/4" and 1/3" Color IR TDN IR Bullet is approx 6x the cost. External IR cost more than the camera in this case. TDN VS Color IR Cost difference can be x2 between cameras with all other similar features. In this case I just manually removed the IR cut filter from the lens. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shockwave199 0 Posted August 3, 2011 Very interesting Rory. For me, now you're getting into a little more subtle, although I do recognize the differences. First set- I find B to be a better picture, but I'd be perfectly fine with A Second set- same opion Third set- A isn't doing as well as B, but it's still ok for me. This is in response to your first set of pics. Dan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shockwave199 0 Posted August 3, 2011 What do I really take away from those pics? Specs mean nothing. Dan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted August 3, 2011 (A) TDN IR Bullet 3.8-9mm vs (B) Color IR Bullet 4-8mm Same Price Range, Different Brands. BTW this has no smart IR as most do now: VS © TDN IR Bullet 2.8-11mm - cost approx 2x the above cameras. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shockwave199 0 Posted August 3, 2011 They have these types around This interesting little fellow This one And this ugly thing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birdman Adam 0 Posted August 3, 2011 HA! I love that Owl!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted August 5, 2011 Did a new test tonight of the cheap Color IR bullet ... 1-cheap 1/4" color only bullet 2-cheap 1/3" color IR bullet 3-b/w bullet 4-TDN bullet with external IR lights on VS lights off - its a big area for the small IR to cover. and a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOQSO8N3YLc sorry i couldnt resist Comparison of IR Bullets: A = cheap, B & C = 3x cost of A, D = 2x cost of B & C Your results may vary between brand of camera used and location. Distance is approx 50' to the white truck in (B) I got this cheap Color IR camera free, so i could also test it - actually all my cameras were free or 2nd hand brought back from the dead. So yeah the cheap Color IR and Cheap color camera work fine in my case also, I know how much better it could be but I cant afford it (plus it will probably just get stolen anyway). I just click on the shortcut to my custom program and in less than a second I am viewing my cameras and can see if anyone is there ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birdman Adam 0 Posted August 5, 2011 So machetes are the weapon of choice in the Bahamas! Now, is that little screen you were holding wireless? I want one! That ABCD comparison is perfect! What is the approximate cost of A? This is a really good example of how what you pay scales up! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted August 5, 2011 no man i was weeding ... ps. guns are outlawed here, meaning all the criminals have them.. yeah thats my old Asus EEE PC .. works good for this kind of thing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
