IP Network Setup (IP Addressing or Subnet)

[MasterVision_Tech 0]

Just wondering what everybody is doing as far as IP setups on customers current networks. I know its better to build a separate network for our systems, but is anyone getting really deep into the networking as far as separate IP network, different sub nets or VLAN's for the cameras and seeing any benefit over network traffic ?

 

I have a few camera's on a customers network (The network has been built from the ground up so I have alot of the newer tools available to route traffic) but the cameras seem to lag or sometimes "drop" from showing on the DVR itself. I know this is an issue as far as data transmission on the network but it is very hard to explain this to a customer who is not "tech savy". What are you guys doing when the only option is to just add the IP cameras to the network or is it mandatory for you to build a separate network just for the cameras ?

[Soundy 1]

Just wondering what everybody is doing as far as IP setups on customers current networks. I know its better to build a separate network for our systems, but is anyone getting really deep into the networking as far as separate IP network, different sub nets or VLAN's for the cameras and seeing any benefit over network traffic ?

 

Well, the Vigil DVRs come pre-configured to 192.168.2.201, so I'll usually leave them at that and add cameras (and NAS, if applicable) to the same subnet, typically assigning the cameras 192.168.2.1xx where 'xx' is the channel number it's going on (ie. camera 6 would be 192.168.2.106), and putting the NAS at 192.168.2.202.

 

One customer then has us connect the whole thing to their corporate WAN, which runs a scheme of 10.0.xx.40, where xx is the store number, and .40 is the address set aside for the DVR on each site (if there's a NAS, that gets .41). The first couple sites we did, I actually used two separate NICs - one for the camera LAN and one for the company WAN - but after various issues with a flaky USB NIC, I ended up just connecting my switch straight to theirs and multi-homing the machine's one NIC on that site, and that all worked fine, so we've just done it that way ever since: the DVR simply gets its 10.0.xx.40 address, with the appropriate netmask, gateway and DNS so it can fully communicate on their network, and then the 192.168.2.201 is added...

 

So it looks something like this:

 

 

 

This has worked extremely well for up to six (so far) 5MP cameras, a DVR, and a NAS.

 

I have a few camera's on a customers network (The network has been built from the ground up so I have alot of the newer tools available to route traffic) but the cameras seem to lag or sometimes "drop" from showing on the DVR itself. I know this is an issue as far as data transmission on the network but it is very hard to explain this to a customer who is not "tech savy". What are you guys doing when the only option is to just add the IP cameras to the network or is it mandatory for you to build a separate network just for the cameras ?

If the traffic is so heavy you're seeing dropouts on the cameras, then it should be noticeably affecting other network traffic as well. How many cameras are we talking about here? What resolution? What codec and framerate? How much traffic are we REALLY talking about (I'd hazard that it's less than you think...)?

 

What switch(es) are used? What's the topology? Do all cameras come into one switch where they can be VLANed, or they sharing various interconnects with other traffic?

[ak357 0]

Just wondering what everybody is doing as far as IP setups on customers current networks. I know its better to build a separate network for our systems, but is anyone getting really deep into the networking as far as separate IP network, different sub nets or VLAN's for the cameras and seeing any benefit over network traffic ?

 

I have a few camera's on a customers network (The network has been built from the ground up so I have alot of the newer tools available to route traffic) but the cameras seem to lag or sometimes "drop" from showing on the DVR itself. I know this is an issue as far as data transmission on the network but it is very hard to explain this to a customer who is not "tech savy". What are you guys doing when the only option is to just add the IP cameras to the network or is it mandatory for you to build a separate network just for the cameras ?

 

Very general ? u ask ( camera brand name ?)

but network switch and second NIC cost not much today

just do it

[Soundy 1]

Very general ? u ask ( camera brand name ?)

but network switch and second NIC cost not much today

just do it

Not so easy if the cabling isn't there for a separate network...

[ak357 0]

Not so easy if the cabling isn't there for a separate network...

 

unplug from first sw and plug to another one

as usual 2 choices

do it yourself or hire somebody

Edited August 18, 2011 by Guest

[thewireguys 3]

I always build a new network.... I look at it this way if your going with analog cctv you build your own UTP/Coax network but with IP you build a new network that is more valuable to the customer.

 

Also last thing you want to do to a IT department is install some cameras on the network and "break" something on there corporate network.

 

VLANs can be your best friend.

[ssmith10pn 0]

 

I have a few camera's on a customers network (The network has been built from the ground up so I have alot of the newer tools available to route traffic) but the cameras seem to lag or sometimes "drop" from showing on the DVR itself. I know this is an issue as far as data transmission on the network but it is very hard to explain this to a customer who is not "tech savy". What are you guys doing when the only option is to just add the IP cameras to the network or is it mandatory for you to build a separate network just for the cameras ?

 

Can you be more specific about this network? Switch make and model? What type of connection between switches? 10gig between switches?

 

One project I work on has 30 Avigilon 1mp cameras, 10 2mp cameras, 21 5mp cameras, 32 encoders, 3 servers, ISCSI storage, and 4 clients running and it's not even a blip on their radar.

 

This is all spread over a large building with about 20 IDF closets.

Everything in on the customers physical network but a VLAN just for security devices.

 

Soon to come 30 more cameras running across town on single mode fiber. (11 Miles) back to the servers at the main campus.

[ak357 0]

 

One project I work on has 30 Avigilon 1mp cameras, 10 2mp cameras, 21 5mp cameras, 32 encoders, 3 servers, ISCSI storage, and 4 clients running and it's not even a blip on their radar.

 

This is all spread over a large building with about 20 IDF closets.

 

Soon to come 30 more cameras running across town on single mode fiber. (11 Miles) back to the servers at the main campus.

 

Just curios

what is max bandwidth per server u getting

I just finish project with 51 Avigilon cams across 3 servers

[MasterVision_Tech 0]

@Soundy - Once again thank your for the prompt reply, as always you are most helpful Sir.

 

I see the setup that you currently have for your DVR and I was planning on doing this same setup at another site with two NIC cards. Do you have the NIC @ 192.168.2.x pointed at the 10.0.14.254 gateway ? And I would assume that your clients on the 10.0.x.x gateway can access the DVR on 10.0.14.201 correct ?

 

Regarding the traffic...

To be honest, I really do not know what the cameras are pushing out at far as the traffic at this point. I will give you as much information as I know and you can determine it from that point. I have been looking for a monitor tool that would let me know how much information is being pushed across the network.

 

I tried to pull the topology, but it was showing incorrect and that may be part of the problem...the router was not even being shown as connected in the topology but I will have to looking into it to see if that could be the issues. I do not have the time to map out the topology nicely but I can write it out for you :

 

Gateway - 192.168.1.1 - Cisco RVS 4000

| | |

| | |

Local Server @ 192.168.1.250 | |

| |

| |

Linksys Wifi AP @ 192.168.1.213 |

|

|

NetGear 16 Port Gig Switch - Unmanaged

 

I have EU devices connected at the switch side... 2 Workstations, 1 Printer

The majority of the devices on the switch belong to me.

 

4 IP Transmitters (Max-500)

1 DVR (Nubix HDX)

2 Engenius Receivers (EOC-2610 & EHN200 for the IP Cameras on the other side of the lot)

2 IP Cameras connected at one site of the lot

 

3 of my cameras are wireless running on Client Bridges on the other side of the lot. I use Eclipse IP20MP IP Cameras. I know how you feel about the eclipse brand Soundy and I am looking to switch to a different vendor after the issues that I have been having with the HDX and IP20MP's.

 

Camera Settings

 

To make it simple, the 3 cameras that are wireless shot across the lot on the 2 Engenius antennas that are connected to the switch at the main office. 2 more IP cameras are directly connected to the switch also. The DVR is also connected to the same switch along with 4 Analog/IP Transmitters. Plus the EU's workstations (2-5 at any given time), Server and Printer. The cameras also send digital pictures back to the server via FTP when a certain area is triggered. The 4 IP Transmitters also do the same.

 

I mean its simple, but sometimes I get the drop on the DVR display even though I can still see the cams via IE and ping in CMD. I could setup the VLAN through the AP (Engenius) and through the router. The RVS has multiple capabilities in this area.

 

@ The Wire Guys - We are still the IT department for this company. The network is still small and I'd rather fix this problem now rather then later. The company is still expanding and the next phase will be adding a few more workstations and connections to the server (VPN with Remote Destop and Image transmissions across the VPN to be stored on the server.) The VLAN's seemed like a good idea to me to separate the traffic and I still may go this way just to keep things simpler (for me at least, I understand this).

 

@ssmith10pn - The main connector is the NetGear Gig Switch. Not all of the device on the network operate at Gig speeds but most of the hardwired are patched directly into the switch. The only thing that plugs into the RVS4000 is the Netgear, Linksys Wifi AP, and Server

[MasterVision_Tech 0]

Reference :

 

Cisco RVS 4000 -http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps9928/index.html

 

NetGear Switch - http://www.netgear.com/business/products/switches/unmanaged-desktop-switches/gs116.aspx

 

Eclipse IP20MP - http://www.eclipsecctv.com/outdoor-ip-camera-IP20MP.html

 

DVR - Nubix HDX - http://www.eclipsecctv.com/NUBIX16HDX-security-DVR.html

 

Engenius EOC-2610 - http://www.engeniustech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=89:outdoor-access-points-client-bridges&id=287:80211g-outdoor-high-power-600mw-bridge-access-point-with-dual-antennas&Itemid=123

 

Enenius EHN200 - http://www.engeniustech.com/index.php/business-networking/outdoor-access-points-client-bridges/9338-enh200-

[ssmith10pn 0]

 

One project I work on has 30 Avigilon 1mp cameras, 10 2mp cameras, 21 5mp cameras, 32 encoders, 3 servers, ISCSI storage, and 4 clients running and it's not even a blip on their radar.

 

This is all spread over a large building with about 20 IDF closets.

 

Soon to come 30 more cameras running across town on single mode fiber. (11 Miles) back to the servers at the main campus.

 

Just curios

what is max bandwidth per server u getting

I just finish project with 51 Avigilon cams across 3 servers

 

 

I'll check that out and let you know. We do have the NICs Teamed and the switch gear supports Teaming.

[thewireguys 3]

 

One project I work on has 30 Avigilon 1mp cameras, 10 2mp cameras, 21 5mp cameras, 32 encoders, 3 servers, ISCSI storage, and 4 clients running and it's not even a blip on their radar.

 

This is all spread over a large building with about 20 IDF closets.

 

Soon to come 30 more cameras running across town on single mode fiber. (11 Miles) back to the servers at the main campus.

 

Just curios

what is max bandwidth per server u getting

I just finish project with 51 Avigilon cams across 3 servers

 

 

I'll check that out and let you know. We do have the NICs Teamed and the switch gear supports Teaming.

 

What switches are you using?

[fa chris 0]

We use the customers network quite a bit, or they will provide the network for us to our specs. Always have them put the security network on a vlan, it isolates the broadcast domain.

 

When a device on a network transmits data (a cctv camera to a server for example), the switch sees the data, and forwards it only to the segment of the network it needs to be forwarded too (the server). However, all devices talk to each other on what's called the "broadcast domain" (they send commands to find each other so data can be properly routed, this is where the MAC address comes into play and how a devices finds another devices MAC address), so when it sends data on a broadcast domain, the switch sees the data, and forwards it to ALL other segments. This can cause a lot of data collusion's, devices can get confused by who's sending what and to who, and pretty soon a camera thinks someone else is your server and is sending data addressed to the wrong computer, the data can become unroutable and the camera will drop offline and won't come back up until the broadcast domain traffic settles down and everyone figures out who everyone else is again. With a tool like wireshark you can monitor the broadcast domain (xx.xx.xx.0 I think) and really see all the "behind the scenes" chatter constantly going on between devices on a network you never normally deal with or think about.

 

By using a vlan, you isolate your cameras and equipment to your own private broadcast domain so you don't have to worry about any interference from other peoples equipment, only traffic your cameras and servers will be seeing are the other cameras and servers, and not some random point of sale workstation or something. If a vlan is used isolating 200 cameras and a few servers, you should be good to go. Regardless of bandwidth, If a vlan isn't used and all of a sudden the broadcast domain includes 200 cameras, a few servers, a few hundred customer workstations, a few hundred VoIP telephones, and a few other random servers, things get messy.

 

The bandwidth aspect has already been covered, just make sure the customer knows your bandwidth requirements in each telecom closet so they can compensate with gigabit switches, fiber, etc. as needed.

[Soundy 1]

@Soundy - Once again thank your for the prompt reply, as always you are most helpful Sir.

 

I see the setup that you currently have for your DVR and I was planning on doing this same setup at another site with two NIC cards. Do you have the NIC @ 192.168.2.x pointed at the 10.0.14.254 gateway ? And I would assume that your clients on the 10.0.x.x gateway can access the DVR on 10.0.14.201 correct ?

This is with a single NIC - as you see in the settings page, there are two IPs applied to it. Normally, a device can communicate directly with other devices on its own subnet; as the name suggests, the default gateway is what tells the system where to route packets destined for outside its own subnet(s) - as such, there can only be one default gateway on an interface.

 

And yes, the 10.* IP is intended primarily to allow the IT department to access the systems via VMS, and for the health monitor to reach it. Since all the arrays we use are dual-NIC, I've also started adding a second connection from that to the switch as well, placed on the 10.* network, to allow the NAS to send alert emails (in case of failing drive, etc.).

[ssmith10pn 0]

What switches are you using?

 

 

http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/Nortel-ERS-5520-48T-PWR-Stackable-Power-over-Ethernet-Switch-RoHS/1063948.aspx#TS