HD-SDI over RG59 Coax and Baluns

[Megapixelman 0]

Hi,

 

Does anyone know the distnaces that HD-SDI can get over Standard RG59 cable in 720p and 1080p.

 

Some people are saying 150m @ 720p using Standard RG59 and about 70m @ 1080p...

 

Also some companies link on the below link make a HDMI Convertor over CAT5.... I am not for adding multiple devices to the a cable run to get a image but at the cost of re-cabling a job it may be a option.

 

http://www.utpbalun.com/hdmi.php

 

I have to admit that HD-SDI looks the business and for the smaller jobs may even take over from Analogue but for large scale jobs I have to admit IP is KING...

 

Let me know

 

MM

[SEANHAWG 1]

What SDI cameras are you considering?

[SportPlumber 0]

Depends more on data rate than resolution. If by HD-SDI you mean SMPTE 292 the data rate will be 1.5 Gb/s. And not all rg-59 is alike. If you use Belden 1505a , which is an rg-59 type but precision, you can go 93m according to Belden. That is not the foam dielectric stuff cable companies use for RF. The rule of thumb for HD-SDI cable transmission is Maximum length = 20 dB loss at 1/2 the clock frequency: SMPTE 292M. So at 750 Mhz , 1505a will be 20 dB down at 93m.

 

Also there will be additional losses that must be accounted for in connectors and patch panels. And you will want some head room to stay away from the cliff.

[Megapixelman 0]

HI,

 

Thanks for the information and we are looking at either of the following cameras.

 

http://www.shany.com/all.asp?fname=p03-0b ( Cameras Only )

 

http://www.webgateinc.com/wgi_htdocs/eng/product/zboard.php?id=wgi_eng&category=8 ( Cameras and DVR )

 

I agree with you abou using the correct cable but honestly most HD-SDI jobs will be retro fits and have cable already installed from previous Installations.... This is the part that scares me as when people quote a job it is all dependant on the cable quality....

 

I am going to do some testing here today and will keep you informed... Also we are goiing to try using HDMI baluns over CAT5... Anyone have anty thoughts and again will let you know the results

 

http://www.utpbalun.com/hdmi.php

 

Thanks

MM

[SportPlumber 0]

Some of those Shany cams are 3 Gb/s. That seems crazy to use as a transport for what can't be a very hi-res image. Why not IP? HD-SDI will require good cable at short runs and fiber for anything long. I am really puzzled at what market these are shooting for. SDI at 270 Mb/s is problematic enough. Wonder what they did this for?

 

Be interesting to see what you find out.

[ssmith10pn 0]

Some of those Shany cams are 3 Gb/s. That seems crazy to use as a transport for what can't be a very hi-res image. Why not IP? HD-SDI will require good cable at short runs and fiber for anything long. I am really puzzled at what market these are shooting for. SDI at 270 Mb/s is problematic enough. Wonder what they did this for?

 

Be interesting to see what you find out.

 

I have never even given one of those cameras a thought because we do 99.9% IP.

But that video stream is staggering. They must send the raw stream over the wire and do nothing at all on the camera.

[Soundy 1]

Some of those Shany cams are 3 Gb/s. That seems crazy to use as a transport for what can't be a very hi-res image. Why not IP? HD-SDI will require good cable at short runs and fiber for anything long. I am really puzzled at what market these are shooting for. SDI at 270 Mb/s is problematic enough. Wonder what they did this for?

 

Be interesting to see what you find out.

 

I have never even given one of those cameras a thought because we do 99.9% IP.

But that video stream is staggering. They must send the raw stream over the wire and do nothing at all on the camera.

Raw, uncompressed, full-framerate 720p and 1080p video, in fact. Makes for really stunning live video.

 

Of course, it still has to be compressed for storage, at which point you end up with video that should be indistinguishable from IP megapixel video.

 

Ostensibly, the idea behind this is to allow easy-retrofit upgrades to HD video for existing coax-cabled analog systems - unplug your old analog gear, plug in the HD gear, and away you go. Cost-wise, the equipment is no cheaper than IP, and you're still stuck with a closed, point-to-point system. It's a nice idea for some circumstances, but I don't think it will ever get beyond a niche product.

[Megapixelman 0]

Hi,

 

I am also testing a unit that Shany has that can send the Video/Data/Power down the one coax cable and it seems to be working pretty good....

 

I have not seen the HD-DVR yet but I have been told it is processor hungry as allo the encoding is done at the DVR....

 

I have to admit the images are sensational and latency from the camera is almost non existant....

 

I agree it is a niche market but for all the no tech guys that like to plug and play like analogue this is a pretty good solution.

 

Have not tested over HDMI baluns yet but will do over the next few weeks and keep you posted....

 

MM

[thewireguys 3]

delete

[SportPlumber 0]

Raw, uncompressed, full-framerate 720p and 1080p video, in fact. Makes for really stunning live video.

 

Of course, it still has to be compressed for storage, at which point you end up with video that should be indistinguishable from IP megapixel video.

 

Ostensibly, the idea behind this is to allow easy-retrofit upgrades to HD video for existing coax-cabled analog systems - unplug your old analog gear, plug in the HD gear, and away you go. Cost-wise, the equipment is no cheaper than IP, and you're still stuck with a closed, point-to-point system. It's a nice idea for some circumstances, but I don't think it will ever get beyond a niche product.

 

Sure but not with a 3 Megapixel imager! SMPTE 292 and 424 are the HD-SDI transport stream specs at 1.5 Gb/s and 3 Gb/s respectively. The 3Gb/s 424 came along to support 60 frame progressive for sports and can be used for 3D. So I guess it makes sense to design cameras that adhere to the standard but talk about using a shotgun to swat a fly.

 

It is really important to use the correct wire and true 75 ohm BNCs. Even then it won't go to far.

 

Niche market is right!

[Soundy 1]

Raw, uncompressed, full-framerate 720p and 1080p video, in fact. Makes for really stunning live video.

 

Of course, it still has to be compressed for storage, at which point you end up with video that should be indistinguishable from IP megapixel video.

 

Ostensibly, the idea behind this is to allow easy-retrofit upgrades to HD video for existing coax-cabled analog systems - unplug your old analog gear, plug in the HD gear, and away you go. Cost-wise, the equipment is no cheaper than IP, and you're still stuck with a closed, point-to-point system. It's a nice idea for some circumstances, but I don't think it will ever get beyond a niche product.

 

Sure but not with a 3 Megapixel imager! SMPTE 292 and 424 are the HD-SDI transport stream specs at 1.5 Gb/s and 3 Gb/s respectively. The 3Gb/s 424 came along to support 60 frame progressive for sports and can be used for 3D. So I guess it makes sense to design cameras that adhere to the standard but talk about using a shotgun to swat a fly.

Hahahah, nice analogy! You want to really stir up some fun, go join the HDcctv group on LinkedIn and tell them that - I'd kill to see Todd and Craig's reactions to that. Bet survtech would too - trolling them has become a hobby of ours

 

It is really important to use the correct wire and true 75 ohm BNCs. Even then it won't go to far.

Yeah, post that, and see if Craig can come back in any less than 2,000 words...

[Megapixelman 0]

HI,

 

I have just tested the HD-SDI over Coax and have got 130 metres on RG59 with 3MP cameras running 1080P.

 

Seems very nice alternative to IP and Analogue... Especially for some plug and play Installers.

 

Have not tested on a balun yet as the HD baluns are a few months away yet.

 

Prices are not that bad either but limited to 16ch for the time being as the DVR has to Encode from the cameras and does draw allot of power.

 

www.webgateinc.com ( They OEM the Samsung DVR's by the look of things )

 

All in all..... Not that bad

 

Thanks

MM

[survtech 0]

Raw, uncompressed, full-framerate 720p and 1080p video, in fact. Makes for really stunning live video.

HD-SDI can also use 1080i; which would require 1/2 the data rate of 1080p.

[SportPlumber 0]

HI,

 

I have just tested the HD-SDI over Coax and have got 130 metres on RG59 with 3MP cameras running 1080P.

 

Seems very nice alternative to IP and Analogue... Especially for some plug and play Installers.

 

Have not tested on a balun yet as the HD baluns are a few months away yet.

 

Prices are not that bad either but limited to 16ch for the time being as the DVR has to Encode from the cameras and does draw allot of power.

 

http://www.webgateinc.com ( They OEM the Samsung DVR's by the look of things )

 

All in all..... Not that bad

 

Thanks

MM

 

Well it would be helpful to know what you mean by "testing". What kind of rg-59? New or in an old install? What data rate? 1080P implies 3G/s?

[balunman 0]

Here is a product that supports HD-SDI over Cat5 if coax is not feasible.

 

http://www.muxlab.com/products/ve_SDI_HD_SDI_Extender_Kit.html

[lavideo 0]

I have tested HD-SDI. RG-59U is good to about 300 feet. I paid about 1700.00 for A 4 CHANNEL 1080p DVR WITH 4 1080 P BOX STYLE CAMERAS. We will retail it for 3400.00.

 

I have been selling CCTV since 1978. I have sold the old Vidicon, Newvicon tube Cameras with switchers that was recorded on a 6 hour VCR. Then came CCD cameras with Multiplexors on Time Lapse VCRs. In 1998 I was selling PC that recorded 4 days of video on a 20 Gig Hard Drive.

 

We build our own PC based servers now to record IP cameras.

 

This HD SDI has a place in the market. It has its limitations, but is much cheaper alternative to IP only systems. I personally like the PC based Hybrid systems- 12 analog and 4 Megapixel IP- best value and helps us win jobs!

[Soundy 1]

I have tested HD-SDI. RG-59U is good to about 300 feet.

That with all-new cable, or over existing coax? Most reports so far is that SDI can be pretty fussy with existing cable.

 

I paid about 1700.00 for A 4 CHANNEL 1080p DVR WITH 4 1080 P BOX STYLE CAMERAS. We will retail it for 3400.00.

...

It has its limitations, but is much cheaper alternative to IP only systems.

 

How is that "much cheaper?"

 

A 16-channel Dahua NVR lists *retail* for $450... four 3MP TDN box cams for $500 each (with 3.8-13mm AI lens)... 8-port Netgear (four PoE) switch at $165... there's your four-channel, four-camera 1080p complete system a smidge over $2600... *RETAIL*. Replace those cameras with 2MP domes at $200 each, and the total cost *to the end user* is $1400... and you're getting 1080p@30fps on every channel. *AND* the room to add up to 12 more cameras.

 

If I wanted to save even more, I could just throw SD cards in those cameras and let them record internally instead of having a separate recorder... or use any of a number of free or open-source NVR programs... or use other cameras that come with their own free NVR software...

 

The HDcctv Alliance spouted for two years even before any product hit the market, how SDI was going to be so much cheaper than IP... it still doesn't even come close.

[Razesdark 0]

I never really put much research in HD-SDI.

But to me it seems like putting allot of efforts and money into a system just because you don't want to replace the cables.

 

Perhaps I'm just spoiled with all the factories I work in which have easy cable routes, but it seems a tad pointless.

Perhaps if the distance versus IP was far better it would had been nice, but judging from the posts here, that doesn't really seem to be the case.

[Soundy 1]

I never really put much research in HD-SDI.

But to me it seems like putting allot of efforts and money into a system just because you don't want to replace the cables.

Well, one of the premises is that it's an "easy drop-in high-def replacement for existing analog". When the HDcctv hype started ("HDcctv" being a self-proclaimed standards body attempting to take the HD-SDI broadcast standard and enforce compatibility across manufacturers), it was also claimed that it would be closer to analog's price point... but this was something like 3.5-4 years ago when IP megapixel was still a rich man's game.

 

Seems like a winner idea... but of course, reality always intrudes on a good idea. Following some of the various discussions on LinkedIn, even the HDcctv manufacturers say that they have problems with a lot of existing RG-59 - the super-high-frequency signal is extremely sensitive to any kinds of defects in the cable and connectors, poor cable, bad connectors, etc. They all recommend new cabling for best results, which is kind of counter to the "drop-in upgrade" concept, and one company is now even selling "HDcctv certified BNC connectors".

[HDSecurityStore 0]

Tested HD-SDI on 300 feet of wiring and its clean and clear. We just used standard wiring.

Coax. RG 59U 95% 18/2 Power Cable

 

Our thinner premade cables did not work well however, there was smears and tears in the image video feed with flickering picture. Also a standard 3 feet cable with a bad twist on connector had the same effect. You need a tight connection.

[Razesdark 0]

Well, one of the premises is that it's an "easy drop-in high-def replacement for existing analog". When the HDcctv hype started ("HDcctv" being a self-proclaimed standards body attempting to take the HD-SDI broadcast standard and enforce compatibility across manufacturers), it was also claimed that it would be closer to analog's price point... but this was something like 3.5-4 years ago when IP megapixel was still a rich man's game.

 

Seems like a winner idea... but of course, reality always intrudes on a good idea. Following some of the various discussions on LinkedIn, even the HDcctv manufacturers say that they have problems with a lot of existing RG-59 - the super-high-frequency signal is extremely sensitive to any kinds of defects in the cable and connectors, poor cable, bad connectors, etc. They all recommend new cabling for best results, which is kind of counter to the "drop-in upgrade" concept, and one company is now even selling "HDcctv certified BNC connectors".

Sounds like something that would never hold it's ground in a factory envoirement. We have enough troubles with frequency changers using analog. I can imagine that if you have a troublesom cable route you'd could consider going HD-SDI. But 300 feet is quite short and easily replaced by a CAT5E in most cases.

Hearing all this, I wonder how long we will still hear about HD-SDI, cause it sounds like it a dead horse who still hasn't felt the flogging.

[Soundy 1]

I suspect it will stick around as a niche product - it does have some features that would be beneficial in certain circumstances, such as zero latency between the time the camera sees it and the time you see it... and it transmits *uncompressed* 1080p video at some 3Gbps, making for extremely clean *live* images.

 

But neither of these, IMO, have any particular benefit in 99% of installations - you still have to compress the video for storage, using the same codecs as you would for IP MP cameras, so while you do get spectacular live images, all else being equal, your recorded video will be indistinguishable from IP... and by its nature, the vast majority of surveillance video has "planned latency", meaning that it's not going to be watched until hours, days, or even weeks after an incident.. at that point, what's a few extra milliseconds?

[Numb-nuts 1]

Here in the UK at least, some of the businesses we deal with have very protective network managers and they are not at all kean on anyone getting into their network. With HD SDI I can overcome that issue without losing the opportunity and don't have to become a networking guru. While the badwidth is greater than analogue, I merely need a single static IP address and an hour with the IT manager or one of their team. Bingo done and not had any distance issues just yet but all runs seem to be fine upto the 100m mark.

Most have been 2MP cameras, haven't had to stretch the envelope yet with 5MP cameras but it will be interesting when I do have a few to install. It's all new territory for me (HD-SDI) as is IP but IP is higher end than the market I cater to at this stage.

 

Training: I need to do a course before attempting a full IP system design and install, frankly I am not into running before I know how to walk properly and I aim to do things properly or not at all. I think my clients understand and appreciate that.

[foresight 0]

By using the HD-SDI repeater, you can repeat up to 1KM

[varascope 0]

Have you tried the HD-SDI cameras from National Security Tech? We have had good luck on existing RG-59 with 1080p at or around 300ft. But I do have to mention, on previous installations we used higher quality cable 95% with crimp-on or compression so upgrading to HD-SDI was not an issue. NST does have HD-SDI over fiber, Inline Repeaters and wireless (expensive but it works great), and a bunch of other HD-SDI products. Only had an issue with 3 cameras over a year and a half but they did replace them.

 

AS far as the bandwidth part of the conversation, it is not network bandwidth but coax bandwidth. I get the impression the ones commenting on using "IP because it is better," don't understand HD-SDI and are reading high bandwidth as it refers to the network. Once your recorder captures the image, network is usually adjustable from 1080p, 720p and smaller resolutions for offsite viewing while maintaining 1080p at full 30fps, which IP systems can't handle (Note: Not referring to IP systems around 8 cameras and under. Understand we are talking professional to enterprise clientele.)