moving on to dvr

[MetzLyov 0]

richchet, tell us exactly which cameras you got (your starting at the begining of the thread that you already overcame this issue) and then tell us exactly what you are trying to do with the DVR.

 

1. What is your application?

2. How many days of recording to you want (regardless if you want motion only or record always)?

3. How many channels DVR do you want?

4. Does CD or DVD burner important?

5. OS based on embedded?

6. Price points (I noticed several big names and models in the thread)?

7. Do you already have the monitor, the cables and the connectors in place?

 

This thread started with some questions on DVR and then turned into cameras

 

Once you give us the info for the above, I am sure everyone will have their say on their recommendations, pros and the cons... and then you will have your options to decide!

 

Levon

[ricochet 0]

levon

my application is a tavern in chicago north side am looking to apply each camera no more the 8' from a subject. i would like to see transactions from several angles and close up. i notice if you go over the 8' mark the transaction becomes questionable. currently i have 4 cameras and all are spread out to cover about 1000' sqft.

min 15 days of recording with 16 channels i would like to dedicate 9 cameras to the bar area and will be expanding my place next year another 800 sqft

cd dvd not important just comes with the pro model i was looking at &120ips

os based on embeded have no clue?????? which to choose

cables connectors monitor will also need to install

internet access a must have dsl line already (sbc)

$$$ <6999.00

actually do not want to be disappointed at any price.quality a must since i will be the one looking at it.

thanks

rick

[MetzLyov 0]

Now we have something to go on

 

Lets take a look at the cameras first - I take it you will use B&W cameras (from previous posts). Obviously you will need wide angle lens, as your viewing area is around 8 square feet. Dependent on if you intend to use 1/3" or 1/2" cameras, select a autoiris lens with 1.8mm-3.6mm range (you can get varifocal version to give you more flexibility)

 

Obviously 4 cameras will not give you decent coverage, therefore you want 16 cameras? You have a choice to get Microsoft or Linux based DVRs or embedded DVRs. The first series, if you choose Microsoft based, then you have all the inherent problems that Microsoft comes with (virus and worm attacks). In case on Linux based system, that is minimized temendously. However, if you go with embedded system, none of this type of attacks will make it to its final destination, as embedded system are not prone to these type of problems. I will suggest using embedded system that gives you great performance and ease of use and basically, you progam it and let it ride... Many to choose to from - Mitsubishi (probably the most cost effective with 60 FPS), Sanyo, Ganz, Bosch and GE Security (you see I do not suggest Panasonic, as you will need a lot of knowledge to program their version of DVRs).

 

You want 15 days of recording. Well, it becomes tricky when you are trying to calculate hard drive space when using motion only feature, as recording takes place only when the DVR senses motion from the cameras. I will suggest to have specific cameras record always (cash register areas mainly) and the rest with motion only. With 16 cameras attached to any of these DVRs, I think you are safe using from 250GB to 500GB hard drive to accomplish this task.

 

As for FPS or IPS capability, well that is another consideration, but I think it will be an overkill if you go with 120IPS or 120FPS box. Here is my reasoninig: If you were to select a box that comes with this type of frame rate, then your maximum available per port is 7.5FPS. Well, you will not see much of difference going from 3.75 to 7.5, unless if you push it to 15FPS... What is important is the resolution of the recording using FPS setting going from low to the highest. Each manufacturer will give you FPS setting and resolution setting. Because your FPS is higher does not mean by sellecting lower resolution will give you a sold picture quality. The industry standards that we work with is 3.75FPS with medium to high resolution and it works...

 

Calculate the longest run for the cables between the furthest camera position to your record and monitor station plus 20% extra. This way, you will have enouph cables and ability to move them as you choose at a later time... Will recommend using siamese cable non-plenum (unless you building code requires plenum). Connectors are dime a dozen, therefore if you will do the instalation yourself or with your coworkers, I will suggest using twist-on bnc connectors.

 

It is great that you already have the DSL service in place. What are the specs, up and down speeds? If you have a lower up speed and the DVR side, you will have slower live video view and ability to play back already stores video. The key is to have at least 256KB of up speed at the DVR side or higher.

 

Price range in my opinion is within what you are trying accomplish and can be lower dependent on the model of the DVR and its hard drive capacity. Regardless what you choose or end up getting, make sure that all your hardware comes with 3 years warranty and anything less should not be considered.

 

 

Levon

[rory 0]

Levon, are there any 1/2" domes out there ..?

 

thanks

Rory

[MetzLyov 0]

Few, will give you the info tomorrow....

 

In the middle of setting up my new FreeBSD workstation on 64-bit AMD procesessor based system and with the latest KDE GUI... So far it looks perfect and it is runnign the apps much faster than Linux....

 

Levon

[cctv_down_under 0]

However, if you go with embedded system, none of this type of attacks will make it to its final destination, as embedded system are not prone to these type of problems

.

 

I sadly do not agree with this statement at all, simple fact is..way out=way in..you want active X you take the risk!! Thats whya good firewall is always needed.

 

Agreed that it is less unlikely but hardly impossible.

 

As for 1/2 and 1/3rd I agree with both, think of 1/2' and 1/3rd" and think of them holding grains of sand..sand = light more sand= more light, no matter the range IE does make a differnce in IR lighting, another thing is that curvature of pixels means less gaps, therefore less chance of non picked up light, with 1/2" gaps are larger, more of the curved pixel can recive light, therefore more sensitive, couple this with 15bit and you see a major difference.. even though a 1/2" can see lower light levels, the cam has to sort this info so needs bigger data path.. prolly why Rory did not see a difference, certainly noticeable on the new XF Day Night, keep in mind too T Factor is increased due to larger surface area for misdirected light and better chnac eof avoiding edge abhorations in the glass.

 

Simple point is..17" monitors are cheap...why..mass produced but larger is much more expensive because it isn't mass produced and I have to agree with Rory, on most other cams you dont see the money's worth of difference unless in B/W or an XF 15bit cam.

[ricochet 0]

how do i couple a 1/2" cam w/15bit and then provide a bigger data path???

8' distance range w/1/2"cam @3mm=11'v & 15' h if i am reading my chart correctly i think gives me good coverage some will be further from subject so was thinking 2.8 to 9 range on AI lens range.

rick

[MetzLyov 0]

Our friend in Australia, I do beg the difference... If it is a true embedded system, how anyone can get in via Internet and cause any damage? If that is the case, then someone can get into the system and change the BIOS content??? Please pay attention to the word "true".... I sure hope Bosch DVRs with XP embedded OS do not have this type of problems!

 

Levon

[rory 0]

XP is still Windows XP, as far as I know it doesnt matter that the OS is embedded, it still has alot of the features that regular XP has minus a couple here and there.

[MetzLyov 0]

ricochet, we can get very technical here, but I rather not... I know which formula you are referring to... Here is one from Panasonic called Lens Estimator and Voltage Drop Calculator - http://panasonic.com/business/security/resources.asp

 

Dependent if you choose 1/3" or 1/2" cameras, you can pick up varifocal lenses going from range of 2.8mm - 12.0mm and they will work. In the areas that you need wider shots, then those cameras need to use wider angle lenses, i.e. 1.8mm - 3.6mm range...

 

Levon

[cctv_down_under 0]

Any Dvr that has the ability to Webcast a HTML page supporting activex controls can have a virus, if you can flash upgrade your DVR then it can be killed, if you use serial to connect and flash upgrade then you can use Dos on most to do the same.

 

The page that is cast out has to be loaded in, hence you can update all previous versions to webcasters, well what is the diff if it is done through the net.

 

I admit the chances of someone writing an exploit flashing an OS killing halfway through flash are highly unlikey like 1 in a Million but it is possible..if ya dont beleive me give me an direct connection to a DVR that is simply not protected in any way and I can turn it into a toaster.. like i said it is sooooo unlikely but it is very possible, you can still do things to the webcasting page held on the machine with great ease.

 

I agree its a pretty mood point, however it is indeed possible to do!

[rory 0]

just interupt the flash

if you flash it with the wrong bin file also she dead, temporary at least ..

 

The GE DVRs have a web page for accessing the flash page, to upload new bin file, also only requires a simple password, so yeah, it can be unsafe if you leave the http port forwarded/open. As for worms, the system used is Nucleus so I doubt many people know how to write a worm for that. it all depends on the OS when it comes to worms and viruses, but for sure you can just upload some "bad" code to it and wont work great after that

 

PS. the GE web server files are all on the HDD not in Eprom.

[MetzLyov 0]

Rory, picky picky picky... I did not say all embedded system

[rory 0]

anything that can hold a bin can be flashed ...

 

ahhh, member the days of flashing cards ...

[MetzLyov 0]

As for our friend in Australia, anything is possible in the world of computers and as long as it is made by man, it is guranteed to fail no matter what you do...

 

What is also possible is that I can fly to Australia in less than 10 minuts and have a bear with our friend, possible yes, probable not really

 

What you are stating as a "possibility" is so remote (even you state one in the million) that if someone figures out how to flash a bios and replace it with their version of the code, then we will have complete world wide Internet destruction, which bring down the most of the world economies as we know it.

 

I think from practicality stand point, lets stay with the facts and not fictions. It is a fiction that it is possible to do it, but not probable and lets not get Casey or any other end user scared on decisions to protect themselves...

 

I am an engineer by the profession and I know that I can write a code in low level machine languge and I can force my will on any PC based machine out there. It may take me a day or a year to figure out the correct distructive code, but where is the benefit? If you see any benefit, please let me know and we can make some money together.

 

Levon

[cctv_down_under 0]

simply point the HTML file usually stored on HDD, to anything you want.

 

Metz, you know how to upgrade standalones, tell me why anyone cant just upgrade remotely through back door and then stop the transfer..leaving your eeprom thinking it is a toaster instead of a DVR?

 

I honestly believe you should have to dongle up to do an upgrade.. only safe way but real pain in the but, burn the prom so it cant be changed at all..otherwise yep you can kill a standalone, actually seen someone accidently do it, bet Rory has with the power problems over there, same goes for cameras.. some now. specially I.P. cams can upgrade through network for instance ours can use remote software to upgrade, not even hard to do small batch file to do this and stop half way.

 

Just because it is hard electronics does not mean it is less fallable, only means less likely to be attacked, because lets face it, takes bugger all to do.

 

One thing you might want to note.. some standalones allow the feature to auto detect them on a network...not a real good idea if a certain threat wants to know where your device is.. I ALWAYS turn this off, if you dont know what I.P. your using you should not be using it... and before everyone says "but a firewall" firewalls are only as good as the people who bring in CD's etc from home.

 

Wouldnt it be interesting to havea virus that polled the ports looking for Geo systems world wide, me bets there would not be many that are firewalled to prevent outside access, lots to be said for a VPN these days.

 

Yes I know I am paranoid, but lets face it, these things are being used in Defence Instalations etc and it would not take much to a do a batch file.

 

Regards,

 

GC

[rory 0]

man i tried to learn nucleus but it was just taking too long ..

 

nah i have them all on Voltage Regulators, bout the only electroinics in the clients places that have survived this long

[scottj 0]

Is the Space Shuttle controlled by an embedded machine or a PC? hmmmmm....If a PC is good enough for NASA, it must be good enough for security..

[rory 0]

back to PCs for a min, i got Live Update working with my soft now

[cctv_down_under 0]

What is also possible is that I can fly to Australia in less than 10 minuts and have a bear with our friend, possible yes, probable not really

 

Sorry not into bear's..love Beers just not bear's but hay whatever spins your wheels... Just kiddin..

 

Actually metz a failed firware update aint that hard to do, no code needed, nothing needed really I could simply scan port for DVR auto detect header, send email to company with Batch file attached, let them run batch file point to FTP site and download wrong flash.. not really hard at all.

 

yes..who would bother.. well i think that might change some day, do you have any idea how many Axis cams are on the net, hell there is webpage listings of them, geo even has a No-IP type listing to them, who do you know that updates their DVR's really..no one patches a DVR.. i once went to site to try to work out why webcam would not work, took me ages to work it out, someone had patched and added windows firewall.. i was pissed as wasted my time, but also glad he had done it.

 

would it please a manufactorer to have a virus that attacks his comptitors products?...hmmm me thinks so!

 

I don't know if it will evr happen and yes its not likely..only from apathy not from difficulty of achieving the task... there is no benefit at this stage..well not yet so no one will do it...but there was no need for a lot of virus's that attack cell phones either...another solid state O/S. but they still did it... it will happen one day.. hell half ofd us lower security setttings to allow active X, why do you think the warning is there about doing this.

 

Dont be fooled, if you have way out you have a way in, if it's designed to be changed it can be killed. but highly unlikely and I am the most paranoid man in the world.. kinda makes me good at my job though!

[cctv_down_under 0]

actually scott, it is my understanding that the PC's they use are actually embedded..and they are hardly connected to the net, like to see someone hack a space shuttle. I think thats a myth about PC's no one really knows man, coz you cant get onsite to see, if youve been inside a shuttle well..your luckier than me!

[rory 0]

speaking of which ... did yall see this

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=EverFocus+EDSR+Applet&btnG=Google+Search

[DataAve 0]

...and you can log into many of them.

[rory 0]

ricochete must be getting a laugh outa where this thread went

[rory 0]

...and you can log into many of them.

 

foe real ... i mean how many people actually change the user and pass anyway ... most of the neverfocus users are DIY'ers anyway .. or alarm installers