Need some advice please

[casey 0]

I was hoping to get some professinal advice. I am currently in the process of building a home where I hope to install an 8 camera DVR system.

 

My situation is that I was paralized from the neck down in a snowmobile accident. I am only able to use a mouth operated mouse with a keyboard that I am able to type with using my mouse.

 

I think I would be able to use a KVM switch in conjunction with my laptop. The main questions that I have are:

first which kind of wiring would I need since I would like to wire before my house is drywalled.

Second, can anyone make a recommendation of a quality system that will provide real time viewing and playback?

Finally I would like to run a camera into an outdoor building that is 150 feet away, which I would run through conduit with the other powerlines.Would this be alright?

 

My total budget is around $3,000. Not including install.

 

Thanks for any advice that you are able to offer.

[rory 0]

Hi Casey

 

First, wiring, how large is the area, longest run, approx?

 

Normally we would just use RG59 Siamese Cable, which is RG59 Coax, with 18AWG Power Cable, in one.

 

For real time, would need PC based, but would have to be a tower, not a laptop. I can recommend GeoVision right now, for high quality local video. Using one of their new Combo cards, available in 8 or 16 channel versions.

 

Sorry, cant run video with high voltage. Maybe see if there are any other conduits going over there already like Cat5/network cable, and utilize that with Twisted Pair Active Hub and a Passive Transmitter.

 

As far as price goes, you are on the right forum, lots of dealers here, also price will depend on how many cameras total you are looking at?

 

Rory

[casey 0]

Rory

Thanks for the reply. The longest wire run inside the house is around 70ft.

As far as getting a tower, would I just use the KVM switch to transfer back and forth between my laptop and a tower where I would have a seperate monitor to view the cameras?

Is "plug and play" wire comparable to the RG59 cable?

[rory 0]

Yes you could use a KVM switch.

 

I have 2 monitors, but use the same keyboard and mouse for my set up here. if you use something like the Linksys KVM switch it lets you Double Click the scroll lock to switch over, the one i have here is a little cheaper that I have to push a button, for what you said, you may want something like the Linksys which switches with the keyboard.

 

Plug and play cable is not going to be as high grade as RG59 Siamese. if you have a professional to install it, best buy the siamese one time, and 70' fine as far as distance goes. Price is not much different, around $70 for a 500' roll, approx.

 

Still have the issue of the other building though.

 

Rory

[casey 0]

As far as the other building, I have not ran the power yet so I can just run a seperate conduit for the camera(s) maybe 2.

My plan is to wire the house now and do some research on different systems.

I estamate I will need at least 1000ft. Any recomendations of a wire supplier? I live in Wisconsin USA.

 

Thanks again for all the info.

 

Casey

[rory 0]

If you are unsure how many cameras you will add at the other building, look at using Twisted pair, multi pair like 15 pairs for example, cat3, etc. Direct Bury is best but costly. Also, can always get a punch block for that building and add more cameras later with cat5 type wire. There is one guy in CA that is helping me regarding cable for this same type of app, C7 in CA. Punch blocks etc are cheap, the Multicamera Hubs are not, but to start with, you only need something big enough for what you initially want to add. You can always add a full blown amplified hub later, or a passive hub even. Once that twisted pair is there you can always do whatever is needed, Problem with RG59 / Coax is once its run thats it, you need to run more cable if you want more. For external buildings, thats where Twisted Pair comes in handy. Even if you only use a cheap $20 balun to start with (1 for the DVR 1 for the camera) you can alawys upgrade as the cable is already there.

 

Rory

[jisaac 0]

Hey casey I would like to put in a few words of advice. If you are wiring before the drywall goes up then I would definitly run cat 5 and a bunch of it to every room and and every corner where you think even you have the slightest chance of needing to have a camera, monitor, vpn, telephone, or just about any other communication, video, or audio device. Cat 5 is quickly becoming the universal cable for almost any application. Its alot better to run that extra wire now than to have someone come in and put it in later. Cat 5 is cheap compared to coax and far superior when it comes to quality and number of applications it can be used. Go with "UL listed 8 conductor 24 AWG UNSHIELDED CATEGORY FIVE CABLE.

 

About the remote building. Definitly do not run it with the high voltage. ( against electrical code ). And when the cable is run in its dedicated conduit. Make sure it is not run directly side by side with the high voltage conduit. Code actually requires that it be 6 feet away from the H.V. Conduit run if the pairs of conduit are run parellel. ( H.V. will give all kinds of problems you don't want ). If you want a video clip that I showed rory recently to show you the reason why then I can provide that ) But take my word for it, " keep all your equipment and cabling as far away from high voltage as possible.".

 

As far as equipment I know Rory said PC based. I personally would recommend a embedded dvr. Why? Because with PC (windows) based you get Microsoft Windows and all the bugs, viruses, worms, and all the other good no wait problems that come with it. I believe that especially in the industry that we are in ( surveillance/security ) the last thing you want is instability. Even if it is a little bit. Because the last thing you want is for something to happean while your system is not working right. So if you can cut down on that as much as possible then it is worth it. The embedded ( Linux ) dvr's are not as unstable as the Pc based. If you get the right one you can have it put it and not have to worrry about it. And then you can use it with as much ease as playing bingo. You dont have the crashes, viruses, worms, and all the other junk you get with windows dvrs. I would highly recommend the Mace advanced dvr. Has MPEG-4 compression 30 frames per second recording on each channel! And you can acceess your dvr remotely without having to have an extra program to load it. It is active X enabled. So you can put in your IP in internet explorer and bring your cameras up from anywhere. Here is a link to the Dvr

 

http://www.mace.com/products.php?model=DVR-800RW

 

Like Vst-man says you definitly " Get what you pay for" in this type of industry. Dont go cheap on your cameras or dvr. Get the good stuff made from a company with some credentials. There is alot of places to choose from. Dont go with the company that sells their cameras for 38 dollars and equipment for low low price. Its going to be crap. Also when you get your bids/proposals from your companies be sure to take a good look at what they guarantee. What they warranty. And the list of terms and agreements that they require. I would also research the local companies that will be installing your system. Check their references. Check with the Better Bus. Bur. in your area. There are alot of companies that have a bunch of know nothing idiots as their system designers and installers. Weed them out and get what you want.

 

I hope I have been of some help. If you need anything please feel free to pm, email, or call me.

Edited August 21, 2005 by Guest

[rory 0]

i prefer embedded myself also, yall know that

She mentioned PC so thats why i mentioned it

[jisaac 0]

ahhhhh!!!! Rory, going back on what you said!!!!

 

Just kidding Ya I know you do. I was just saying that you can obtain real time with mace dvr without having to go pc based. So long as your not installing on any government application. ( long story, casey )

 

 

 

hint: The Buy American Act

 

[rory 0]

Real time with mace embedded ..? In 320x240 though right?

Even so, they are then one of maybe 4 embeddeds that do that .. which is good ... embeddeds .. darn I watch too much cnn and msnbc

[jisaac 0]

real time monitor 704x576

playback 352x288

vga 720x576

 

but hey would you rather have even the lowest resolution thats working?

or the highest resoluition at a blue screen?

I dont know I bet the blue gets real pretty in high res.

 

You know I'm messin with you rory.

But also another good thing about mace's dvr. Which thanks to the Mpeg-4 it can has the ability and the inputs on each of their advanced dvr's for audio recording on each channel and audio/video synchronization ability on playback locally or remote.

[rory 0]

it sounds good as far as the DVR goes, but their cameras are the same as the Eclipse OEM gear

 

Basically there is no RTOS DVR that does full real time 720x480 recording like a PC does, which is what the PC is good for Otherwise I prefer the GE DVRs ya know that

 

I looked at the mace specs but it isnt clear as to what sizes it records at in different resolutions. .? But according to what you posted, that means in real time it records in 352x288, which is low res.

 

I prefer higher quality and motion detection, and lower speed if thats what I get .. course id prefer faster but yah know, them RTOS cant do it .. yet .

 

The audio thing is nice, but thats typical with most Linux based DVRs.

Id like to know what brand they are using (OEMing) though ...

 

Lets not confuse casey though .... lets continue via email/pm ... casey, any luck yet with ideas posted here?

 

Rory

[scottj 0]

But also another good thing about mace's dvr. Which thanks to the Mpeg-4 it can has the ability and the inputs on each of their advanced dvr's for audio recording on each channel and audio/video synchronization ability on playback locally or remote.

 

 

 

Some PC based DVR's offer the same syncronization method, such as GeoVision. Not knocking the Mace products, they are par with some of the top units out there.

 

scottj

[DataAve 0]

I just have to offer wiring advice. Get them all in now, speaker, cctv, phone, cat 5/6, many 110 outlets (could never have enough), everything. Put all extra runs in there-where you think you might want a cam. It would be easier/cheaper to get it all done now.

[jisaac 0]

Some PC based DVR's offer the same syncronization method, such as GeoVision. Not knocking the Mace products, they are par with some of the top units out there.

 

scottj

 

yes but the point i am trying to make is if you can stay away from pc based

[scottj 0]

I understand your point. I do not agree with stayng away from PC based though overall, maybe for a residence though it is a good idea. Embedded machines have pros and cons the same as a PC based unit. Any piece of equipment is subject to failure regardless of preference.

 

scottj

[MetzLyov 0]

Scott,

 

Your point is well taken and I respect that. However, can you please give me any advantage that the PC Windows based system may have vs. embedded systems? Or better yet, can you please clarify for me what are the "cons" in embedded systems from your perspective?

 

Considering the fact that you have to puchase PC and operating system sperately, then add the video capture card along with its own software, program, setup (major labor costs) and then go live... vs. embedded system that works right out of the box....

 

I can never understand the cost effectiveness of the capture cards. Can someone explain to me where the costs saving really are? May be I do not see it because we went through quite of few of them in the past and realized that it is not a security solution, rather learning how such hardware works. Does anyone really making any money on this type of setups from Geo and others?

 

With all due respect to all the manufacturers and dealers using such cards and systems and I am sure everyone will have their own observations, but where are the advantages? Is it the cost? Is it the ease of setup and programming? Is it the warranty? Am I missing something here that I do not understand?

 

Levon

[rory 0]

Recording Speeds are faster than RTOS Embedded Systems in Full 720x480 recording resolution, and Higher Quality Evidence Sharing.

 

There are other benefits to a PC system such as the more advanced administration of users and passwords.

 

Course PCs are duty free down here while video systems costs us big $$ to import. And if the user has a problem with the PC i can fix it without having to wait 1 month for a new one to come from the manufacturer.

 

Now if they can bring out a Real Time RTOS embedded DVR, that would be nice, but right now you are stuck with at least Embedded XP for that, or Windows XP. When I say real time guys, I mean High Quality not VCR mode, nothing exists in RTOS yet. I dont know why, but they need to get a move on it already ..

 

And no, not everyone needs real time ... but recently all my clients wanted it Personally If I had a store, id use a GE DVMEc-CT for security, and a PC based for Speed, loop them together.

[Thomas 0]

Pros of PC based systems:

 

1. Upgradable.

2. Can be intergrated into a network with more ease.

3. Replacement parts are much cheaper.

 

Those three come to mind off the top of my head.

[jisaac 0]

I did not say that Pc based machines are to be stayed away in every instance. I mean I am having to go with one on our install this week for the military. ( would prefer not to ) but in this environment I could not find a embedded dvr to put in with the features I needed. I just personally believe and I could be wrong that 99.9% of systems would be better off with a embedded dvr than a windows. I think the only instance a pc based is half way suitable is when you have personal at the station 24/7 who is fluent in the system and software. Who also has a good knowledge of computers and how to fix them. Because if you are going windows you will need to fix it. Its inevitable. Unless you (or if you dont work for yourself then your boss ) doesnt mind getting calls at 7:30 christmas morning to come out and fix a clients system and in the mean time opening yourself up to law suits so far up your rear end that you will be pulling affidatives out your teeth for months. ( sorry got carried away there )

As a business owner I look at it like this:

What is best for my customer not neccessarilly means has the most features, bells, whistles, etc. Whats best for my customer is a quality system that provideds them with 24 hour a day seven days a week video documentation of their entire property and or assets. That is user friendly and is most importantly going to work reliably. Lets face it Pc based dvrs are not reliable. It may not be the Pc's fault neccassarilly. Most of the time its actually not. Its most of the time the end users fault. But you as "Professional" should provide them with something that protects them even from themselves. The best system in the world is absolutly useless if it does not work. Its like that school that around 14 years ago burned down and killed a number of people. So they built a new building and get the best sprinkler system money could buy. For years they where so proud of their sprinkler system. But when a maintence man stumbled across something one day that lead him to find out that the system was never actually hooked up to the water supply!!!! Its ineffective! That is not what is best for your customer.

 

 

 

 

I bet we have caseys head spinning. Sorry casey.

P.S. get an embedded.

[jisaac 0]

By the way. I have a bachelors degree in computer engineering. I know pretty much everything needed to know about any kind of computer whether it be a Pc, palm pilot. or your little kids playstation/xbox.

 

Trust me. Embedded is the way to go for surveillance/security applications.

[rory 0]

One thing also to note, not all Embedded, RTOS, systems are reliable as well. Alot of the cheaper ones can give plenty of problems .. the only RTOS i sell right now are the GE ... because I dont have to worry about sending them back to the manufacturer . But most cant afford them down here after Customs Duty. ..

 

Also remember there are embedded Windows DVRs now as well, so not all embedded DVRs are RTOS, just like not all Linux DVRs are RTOS linux.

[jisaac 0]

ya good point. I guess i assume people know what I am talking about.

I dont use low end products. If someone wants a low end system I tell them to go to one of these local alarm companys because they can and will definitly sell them some crap. ( of course i dont put it like that) I first do everything in my power to educate them on my product and also the other guys product. Then if every attempt to close them fails I will not put in crap. Would rather not have the bussinness. I might be crazy but I would rather keep a good name for excellent systems.

Sorry if i am not being clear. I assume alot. Explain little. OOps

[scottj 0]

I beg to differ that ALL embedded systems are reliable, and ALL PC based systems are not. If that were the case, large corporations such as Boeing, Casinos, etc. would be using embedded DVR solutions. Some are yes, but many use PC based due to network scalability and increasing demand for longterm video storage; which can be achieved cost effectively with a PC based system. (training, etc. all factor into the equation). Fun Fact: More people know how to operate a PC then they do their VCR at home.

 

The primary failure area of any DVR solution is typically the data storage component (HDD). Unfortunately the MTBF for these components is not "ideal" in respect to the other componentry of either type system. The bottomline is that you could experience this failure with an embedded just as easily as a PC based system. You will also notice that most embedded DVR solutions still utilize IDE drives, which are well known for much higher failure rates compared to SATA or SATAII, or even SCSI for that matter.

 

Any product not designed with strict quality procedures discipline is subject to ridicule. The security CCTV market disctates a need for both types of solutions depending on the application for surveillance.

 

Obviously some of us prefer one solution over the other, or a little bit of both. Regardless of which system we prefer, the application will best dictate the solution chosen.

 

scottj

[MetzLyov 0]

Thomas, I concur with your assessment with a few twists if I may...

 

"1. Upgradable." In the embedded system the only thing you can upgrade and for a good reasons are the hard drives. You need no upgrades on anything else! In case of the PC, there are so many that you must upgrade for it to keep up, updates, service packs, anti-virus software, etc..

 

"2. Can be intergrated into a network with more ease." I beg the difference! It is much easier to program embedded system in any network. The only pragramming you do is to apply the internal or external IP address and the gateway. That is it!

 

"3. Replacement parts are much cheaper." If you are getting the embedded DVR with 3 years warranty, why would you want to repair it beyond that? The average life expectency of any PC is 3 years anyway...

 

Levon