Does Infrared light work from inside a Fixed Dome?

[Fiona 0]

Some cowboy installers have just sold a $7K system to a trophy home built by local drug dealers. My cameras are picking up IR light emitted from inside their domes. I was pretty certain that IR would bounce back from the inside of the perspex interfering with the cameras?

 

The question is: Can IR light be emitted from inside a fixed dome or will it bounce back off the perspex?

 

Also, even if it did work, wouldn't watermarks and dust on the outside of the dome cause the light to bounce back eventually?

[Soundy 1]

Some cowboy installers have just sold a $7K system to a trophy home built by local drug dealers. My cameras are picking up IR light emitted from inside their domes. I was pretty certain that IR would bounce back from the inside of the perspex interfering with the cameras?

 

The question is: Can IR light be emitted from inside a fixed dome or will it bounce back off the perspex?

 

Also, even if it did work, wouldn't watermarks and dust on the outside of the dome cause the light to bounce back eventually?

Actually, the majority of IR domes you see will have the IRs inside the dome, and then usually have a foam gasket around the lens that snugs up against the bubble to help block reflections from entering the lens (it's never 100% effective).

 

The thing to remember is, IR is built into cameras in the first place, usually to compensate for poor low-light performance - it's cheaper to take a junky camera and add a bunch of 2-cent IR LEDs and sell it as a "night vision" camera, than it is to actually build a camera that works well with little ambient light. At that point, it's also cheaper and easier to just slap the LEDs behind the same bubble and isolate the lens with a gasket, than it is to put the LEDs "outside" the bubble, whether it's really the best idea or not. You can still sell it as a "night vision" camera, and if there IS a problem with that particular design aspect, you can always blame the installer or user (well, you must have moved the gasket/scratched the dome/etc.)

[Fiona 0]

Thanks Soundy. That's very well explained.

I hadn't realised there was an attempt to isolate the IR from the lens by using a foam gasket.

I can see how the gasket should work in principle, though it does seem to be a mickey mouse solution.

 

Are any reputable companies using this method?

[shockwave199 0]

So your problem is your cameras are picking up IR from your neighbors cameras? What is that doing to your picture exactly? Are your cameras that close to theirs? I've never heard of this one before!

 

If you want IR inside the camera, go with ball-dome or bullet cameras. Mine have worked out well for me. More and more I don't like typical dome cameras. I understand why they could be a preference in some locations, but mostly I think they suck. Minus IR, in low light situations they may be sensitive, but I haven't seen one sensitive enough to be useful under those conditions- certainly not the ones I monitor at work here. If they have IR inside the dome, it reflects back becomes a problem. And in my experience, weather compromises them frequently. Even light rain distorts the view. Occasional fog inside the dome distorts the view until that clears. All that makes me not prefer domes. Ball domes and bullets- I've had both types up at home through some horrid conditions, with the IR internal, with no trouble at all. But, YMMV.

[Fiona 0]

I didn't realise IR was being fitted inside domes.

 

It seems like a pretty severe set of compromises to manufacture a dome with internal IR so that, as Soundy said, they can be marketed as 'night cameras'. The idea striikes me as junk.

 

Hard to beat a Low Lux, Hi Res Camera with an Auto-Iris Lens fitted into a proper enclosure.

Expensive, but solid 24/7 performance year after year after year...

[Soundy 1]

So your problem is your cameras are picking up IR from your neighbors cameras? What is that doing to your picture exactly? Are your cameras that close to theirs? I've never heard of this one before!

 

If you want IR inside the camera, go with ball-dome or bullet cameras. Mine have worked out well for me. More and more I don't like typical dome cameras. I understand why they could be a preference in some locations, but mostly I think they suck. Minus IR, in low light situations they may be sensitive, but I haven't seen one sensitive enough to be useful under those conditions- certainly not the ones I monitor at work here. If they have IR inside the dome, it reflects back becomes a problem. And in my experience, weather compromises them frequently. Even light rain distorts the view. Occasional fog inside the dome distorts the view until that clears. All that makes me not prefer domes. Ball domes and bullets- I've had both types up at home through some horrid conditions, with the IR internal, with no trouble at all. But, YMMV.

You're probably comparing poor domes to good bullets, then. There's nothing inherent to a dome design that makes it more susceptible to internal fogging, rain, distortion, etc.

 

Many IR bullet designs actually put the lens and IRs behind the same glass as well, with nothing more than a foam gasket around the lens for light isolation. Better designs have the lens protruding through the glass over the IRs, or put each behind separate pieces of glass.

 

Either way, there are still issues with ANY cameras with built-in IR - a common one is how the cameras attract bugs, which then attracts spiders to build webs in front of them. Separate illuminators are a better way to go... or better still, motion-activated flood or spot lights combined with proper true day/night cameras, so you can actually get COLOR images of your prowlers.

[Soundy 1]

I didn't realise IR was being fitted inside domes.

 

It seems like a pretty severe set of compromises to manufacture a dome with internal IR so that, as Soundy said, they can be marketed as 'night cameras'. The idea striikes me as junk.

 

This is the case with built-in IR *in general*, not just with domes - again, IR has its place, but for the most part, it's just used as a cheap workaround for a crappy camera.

[rory 0]

There are 2 types of Domes with built in Infrared

 

1-The Standard Dome with the foam ring to block IR from entering the lens.

2-Eyeball / Turret style domes which have a separate IR window.

 

The latter are the ones I use and they are no mickey mouse setup, they do work.

However for any longer range IR I would use a bullet with IR, or if they can afford it something like the Extreme IR cameras, or BETTER yet separate IR alltogether.

 

The reason for using Infrared in the first place is because the camera needs light, no matter how well it may compensate for low light, it cant see in pitch dark. Also most cameras that see in very low light compensate so much that there is a ton of noise. The trick is knowing when to use Infrared and when not to, unfortunately no matter what you tell the clients, many these days have already made their mind up that Infrared is the way to go, while most times a good color or BW camera, or True Day Night camera without IR .. is all that is needed.

 

That said a camera with built in Infrared is usually the manufacturer's attempt to make it easier for the installer and in some cases cheaper - than buying the camera without IR and adding it as needed. The customer buys it with Infrared just incase they need it, in many cases they dont. Decent external Infrared costs money and takes additional labour, unless one has the time to mess with LEDs off ebay or direct from china. The idea of the built in IR cameras is that its a plug and play solution, but really it is never guaranteed, even with the $2000 extreme IR cameras.

 

Typically when I DO use Domes with IR it would be in a small office or at the inside or outside of an entrance, basically short distances. Otherwise its non IR domes or True Day night bullets with IR (hard to find them without these days) where one can disable the IR if needed.

 

But to each their own, the main thing is to please the client.

Most of my apps for the past 10 years have been day night installs, and pitch dark, so I have definitely had the need for Infrared. Im tired of Infrared and so are my eyes having used so much of it over the years (imagine 500' IR hallogen bulbs that burn your skin at 3 feet away). But I use it when I need to.

 

Ofcourse most cheap outdoor dome cameras come with built in infrared anyway, and without it they rarely see much of anything at night even under alot of light. So what you use will depend on the client and application.

[rory 0]

[Fiona 0]

Thanks Rory for the detailed remarks.

 

No doubt about it. It is always about Horses for Courses. i.e. specific solutions to specific problems

Infrared is obviously needed when there is no ambient light.

[shockwave199 0]

Some cowboy installers have just sold a $7K system to a trophy home built by local drug dealers

I get what you're talking about in general now, but what this detail has to do with anything on this subject still perplexes me!

 

You're probably comparing poor domes to good bullets, then. There's nothing inherent to a dome design that makes it more susceptible to internal fogging, rain, distortion, etc.

I'm quite sure the domes are tons more expensive than my bullets, but they may still be garbage. They are prone to fogging under the right conditions. My bullets and ball domes don't ever do that. Seems like a seal problem I suppose. And rain tends to hang onto the top half of the domes- droplets that skew the image. I usually wipe the ones I can reach. My bullets and ball domes don't do that- of course the image is skewed during rain but they drip off right away because the lenses are vertically flat- no upper dome for droplets to sit on. And the internal IR's absolutely help...forward out, not backwards into the lense. I will agree though- spiders love the damn IR in cameras. That really is a consideration and from my experience, the very biggest reason to consider external IR. Better yet, exterior lighting in general. It's freeeezing here lately and the absence of spiders is a welcome change. Anyway, this question was asked-

 

I hadn't realised there was an attempt to isolate the IR from the lens by using a foam gasket.

I can see how the gasket should work in principle, though it does seem to be a mickey mouse solution. Are any reputable companies using this method?

Without suggesting companies, I can only suggest considering bullets or ball dome cameras if you need internal IR. They seem to handle internal IR better, ime. Good luck.

[Fiona 0]

When you live in a new neighbourhood inundated by heroin addicts looking for their next victim, every action by an addict or a drug dealer is a concern.

 

Many of us have cameras because addicts run around with jimmy bars looking for opportunities. So the subject of heroin is at the forefront of CCTV application.

 

Personally speaking, I have collected hundreds of close-up events of addicts sticking needles into their arms at the front, side and rear of my house. Heroin use is reaching an epidemic.

 

If you took away heroin, the need for CCTV would dramatically diminish.

[rory 0]

When you live in a new neighbourhood inundated by heroin addicts looking for their next victim, every action by an addict or a drug dealer is a concern.

 

Many of us have cameras because addicts run around with jimmy bars looking for opportunities. So the subject of heroin is at the forefront of CCTV application.

 

Personally speaking, I have collected hundreds of close-up events of addicts sticking needles into their arms at the front, side and rear of my house. Heroin use is reaching an epidemic.

 

If you took away heroin, the need for CCTV would dramatically diminish.

 

then you would have to worry about the crack addicts

[shockwave199 0]

LOL! Fiona, your initial post is confusing, that's all. It had me asking odd questions until I read it again.

[beckosecurity 0]

Bullet Camera has much more advantages than dome camera in IR and weatherproof.

[ljarrald 0]

[rory 0]

Thats a regular dome housing though, the eyeball/turret domes dont have that problem.

 

Also make sure the foam ring is tight against the cover otherwise the IR will get into the lens area.

[ljarrald 0]

Thats a regular dome housing though, the eyeball/turret domes dont have that problem.

 

Also make sure the foam ring is tight against the cover otherwise the IR will get into the lens area.

 

yeah, the eyeball ones are better for IR.

 

there is no foam on this camera. i need to make a 'suction cup' but have not gotten around to it yet.

[Soundy 1]

Or better yet, just use cameras that DON'T have or rely on built-in IR.

[rory 0]

Or better yet, just use cameras that DON'T have or rely on built-in IR.

Sorry but most people live in the real world.

[Soundy 1]

Or better yet, just use cameras that DON'T have or rely on built-in IR.

Sorry but most people live in the real world.

More like, most people just buy the marketing hype and take what the salesdroid hands them, rather than planning a proper *system*.

[tomcctv 190]

Or better yet, just use cameras that DON'T have or rely on built-in IR.

Sorry but most people live in the real world.

More like, most people just buy the marketing hype and take what the salesdroid hands them, rather than planning a proper *system*.

 

 

 

 

domestic market is the built in IR. in the uk you would never see an IR camera in public space cameras or commercial installs

[rory 0]

Or better yet, just use cameras that DON'T have or rely on built-in IR.

Sorry but most people live in the real world.

More like, most people just buy the marketing hype and take what the salesdroid hands them, rather than planning a proper *system*.

So you force the customer to leave the lights on at night in their store?

[rory 0]

domestic market is the built in IR. in the uk you would never see an IR camera in public space cameras or commercial installs

 

They need to embrace the technology and not be scared of it.

What happens when they break in and you dont get any video because there is no light?

[ljarrald 0]

proper *system*.

 

IR WORKS so is fine for what i need (once i have fixed the reflection problem)