MSRP and CCTV debate

[chesterfield 0]

The problem is these pre-sales tools are often not made available to the end user who wants to do their own research/spec before asking a supplier to quote for their chosen spec. Myself and the OP of this thread are end users looking to do their own research. If there wasnt so much smoke and mirror activity on pricing of various items, perhaps suppliers/retailers/installers wouldn't be wasting their time quoting for solutions and then just having the customer ring round and try to beat it.

 

Take a well known manufacturer as an example (I know this applies to a few other manufacturers also, but their pricing is what Ive been researching), I have found that the full MRSP for all items they produce is actually available on several partners websites, including MRSP prices from as late as December. Which in itself doesn't say that much about how professional some of these partners are when it comes to security as these apparently confidential documents can be found by a rank amateur spending half an hour with google, but thats another point entirely.

 

If all manufactuers made these MRSP lists available right from their websites, then I believe it could help the industry rather than hinder it.

 

As an example, take the OP of this thread. They have a budget of £1000. This customer may look at reviews of cctv equipment online and see case studies for manufacturers etc etc, and decide that looks like the equipment for them. So they look at the specs of the cameras and the software online and decide what they want. They get it all written down and contact an installer that they know deals with this brand. They have them come out and quote for the installation of this equipment, only to find its way outside their budget. If they had seen the prices online at the manufacturer, they would have known this straight away and not bothered asking for a quote on that equipment.

 

Its not to say that installer would not have been asked to do the job, they would have just been asked to quote for something that the customer knew up front would be around their budget.

 

If a customer knows the MRSP that the manufacturer puts on their items, then when the customer gets a quote they know instantly if its in the ball park range that they expected, having seen the prices first. This means that there will be less customers taking a retailers quote and then go and get another from somebody else to check it. One of those retailers will be wasting their time and so is the customer.

 

It also means that customers wont have to be paranoid about inviting lots of different people round to their home to quote. Who likes inviting a stream of strangers round their houses specifically to look at weak areas in their security and what valueables need covering?

[rory 0]

I can see it now - going in the food store and telling the cashier you know the exact price her boss paid for that apple so you will not pay more than that. I wonder how that will end

[chesterfield 0]

The prices in a supermarket are right there on the shelves, so thats hardly a good anaology to use.

 

Have you ever bought tyres for a car? Did you invite a whole range of tyre fitters round to view your car and advise what tyre they think you should buy and then they give you a price.

 

Or did you just ring up the local tyre shops and ask them to give you a price for the tyre you wanted?

 

So, what is this guy with the £1000 budget going to do now? He will have to ring up a few different companies, have them come to the premises, spend maybe an hour each looking at the job, and producing a quote for it. Even if he is happy with the system for £1000, he may want to check he is paying the right price, so If he does that with only three suppliers, he has wasted at least 2 hours of his own time and an hour each of the two suppliers who wont get the business.

 

Whereas if there was pricing made available to end users immediatley then its very easy for the customer to see a good price without having to waste other perfectly good installers time using them as a benchmark

 

This also rids the market of cowboys who charge over inflated prices to make a quick buck out of the customer for crappy products. Meaning the rest of you installers who are professional get the business that they would have swallowed up. Dont see a problem with it myself.

 

PS - coming back to the apple, I dont expect the retailers to sell at wholesale, I do know a little bit about business. I expect them to be close to the Suggested Retail Price. If customers are not aware of the retail price, then it allows cowboys to sell apples at $1 each to those who dont know anything about apples.

[rory 0]

The prices in a supermarket are right there on the shelves, so thats hardly a good anaology to use.

Not always, and prices vary from one store to the next.

 

Have you ever bought tyres for a car? Did you invite a whole range of tyre fitters round to view your car and advise what tyre they think you should buy and then they give you a price.

 

Or did you just ring up the local tyre shops and ask them to give you a price for the tyre you wanted?

Called around for the cheapest price.

They vary from one store to the next.

 

So, what is this guy with the £1000 budget going to do now? He will have to ring up a few different companies, have them come to the premises, spend maybe an hour each looking at the job, and producing a quote for it. Even if he is happy with the system for £1000, he may want to check he is paying the right price, so If he does that with only three suppliers, he has wasted at least 2 hours of his own time and an hour each of the two suppliers who wont get the business.

 

Whereas if there was pricing made available to end users immediatley then its very easy for the customer to see a good price without having to waste other perfectly good installers time using them as a benchmark

Cant do that in the CCTV Industry. Can give you a rough price of just the product sure, as they are all over the internet anyway, but specifying what goes where and the cost of installation MUST be quoted, this is a technical and service related job and EVERY SINGLE installation is different.

 

In fact in most cases I would not quote a job until Ive see it at night as well as during the day. So yeah it takes time and money just to go quote a job, but it is what it is.

 

If people just want a price on something they can just go online - if they want the valued opinion and consultation of a professional with years of experience, then they would get a quote from that person - its their choice.

[chesterfield 0]

Im not talking about the installation. Of course that will need to be quoted for. They may need fitting to a castle or a mobile home. Im guessing the OP of this thread was going to fit the equipment himself, otherwise he would have just got people to come out and quote for the whole job.

 

What I am talking about is the price of the goods if somebody wants supply only. I don't want the cashier to come to my house and cook the meal Ive just bought. I just want the meal, Ill cook it myself thanks.

 

As for some CCTV equipment you cant find the prices online. I actually have the full MRSP for the kit I am now interested in, so it will be fairly easy to spot the real reason for keeping these hidden from the consumer when the quotes come back

[Dylan123 0]

a better way to protect your premises from rioters and general burglary in the future would be to install a smoke screen. smoke generators are extremely efficient and the burglars will not be able to steal your stock.

 

have a look into it... smoke-screen.co.uk

[rory 0]

Im lost now .. what was the question?

Issue is with people charging more than the MSRP, or less?

Biggest problem in the industry today is online stores selling at dealer price to end users, not the other way around.

 

Anyway, at the local pharmacy they sell a 1.5liter of water for $1.25, at the Gas Stations it goes for $2.20 .. talk about markup .. LOL. The food store is always out of water go figure, so if I dont make the pharmacy in time before they close, Im paying double for water, and thats every single day

[chesterfield 0]

Im lost now .. what was the question?

Issue is with people charging more than the MSRP, or less?

Biggest problem in the industry today is online stores selling at dealer price to end users, not the other way around.

 

Anyway, at the local pharmacy they sell a 1.5liter of water for $1.25, at the Gas Stations it goes for $2.20 .. talk about markup .. LOL. The food store is always out of water go figure, so if I dont make the pharmacy in time before they close, Im paying double for water, and thats every single day

 

 

The issue is end users not being able to find the MSRP in the first place for some manufacturers.

 

This to me is one of the major factors behind some installers switching to certain manufacturers. The customer cant find prices online, and the installer can then markup the cameras by a huge margin and screw over the customer.

 

Why is it a problem that online stores are selling cameras at dealer price to end users? You just stated that yours is a technical & service related job. So you are competing for two different markets. You are providing the years of expertise and knowledge with the setup of the cameras you provide, and the online store is just supplying the goods.

[rory 0]

Why is it a problem that online stores are selling cameras at dealer price to end users? You just stated that yours is a technical & service related job. So you are competing for two different markets. You are providing the years of expertise and knowledge with the setup of the cameras you provide, and the online store is just supplying the goods.

 

For me its no issue, but for the countless others that stock and sell products it is.

Personally I want no part in selling products, but thats me.

 

Most resellers that import/sell asia direct items will never be able to produce a MSRP as the manufacturer would not have one, since they sell to so many markets, and they would likely sell to anyone anyway.

 

You will however find MSRP on most big branded items.

Why is the cost more at one place than others?

With many online stores they offer little to any warranty, eg, 30 days warranty and thats it, then have to send back to manufacturer and pay for shipping. Lots of people like the idea of having all that taken care of. Eg the reason people buy things locally here are for the warranty, the better the warranty the more the product is going to cost. So basically MSRP does not always take into account the warranty of the product - and Im not talking the warranty of the manufacturer, im talking the time it takes the reseller to have to restock the item, deal with shipping, and basically just take care of warranty items. Shipping and taxes all play into how much the end product will cost as well. Some people work for less than others, so pricing will vary.

 

But then again, its not my area and I dont care about warranty so much unless it costs a fortune (then i just want to at least be able to send it back to the manufacturer), most sub $300 cameras will cost more than the camera to ship it back to the US, which is intl shipping so the supplier normally would never pay that anyway no matter HOW good a warranty they have.

[rory 0]

Personally I want no part in selling products, but thats me.

Edit, that should have been stocking products.

[rory 0]

This to me is one of the major factors behind some installers switching to certain manufacturers. The customer cant find prices online, and the installer can then markup the cameras by a huge margin and screw over the customer.

Actually you are correct when it comes to some brands ... from what Ive seen some dealers sell products that have no prices online and so they COULD sell them for whatever they like, eg. Honeywell CCTV is rare online, and some other branded US/Canadian products. BTW most originate in Asia anyway. Avilon is another one that is touted on this forum, and although its not impossible to find pricing online, it is rare.

[Soundy 1]

The issue is end users not being able to find the MSRP in the first place for some manufacturers.

 

This to me is one of the major factors behind some installers switching to certain manufacturers.

Most installers choose manufacturers based on the quality of the product, long before they base the choice on the availability of the MSRP online.

 

Why is it a problem that online stores are selling cameras at dealer price to end users? You just stated that yours is a technical & service related job. So you are competing for two different markets. You are providing the years of expertise and knowledge with the setup of the cameras you provide, and the online store is just supplying the goods.

So imagine you're the integrator: the customer wants you to design a system, including a price on all the equipment. So you quote the equipment based on what YOU can get it for, which may not actually be dealer pricing depending on your supply chain. Then the customer takes your quote, looks up the gear online, finds he can get the cameras from some shady online reseller for far cheaper than you want (or even cheaper than you can get the cameras from a reputable supply chain)... decides he wants to buy the gear online and just have you install it.

 

Now what happens if that gear fails? You have to tell the customer he has to go back to the source himself... he blames you for the problem and wants you to fix it all under your warranty... a mess ensues.

 

Here's a good example of the problem with online pricing: one particular brand and model of cameras we handle comes from the US, but here in Canada we have to get it from an importer... I don't know what he pays for them from his US source, but they come to us, let's say for $300 (I don't know exactly what we get them for, but it's around there). We then resell them for $350 - $50 markup isn't much, but if the camera fails, I know I can take it back to our supplier and he'll replace it and then deal with warranty coverage on up the chain. For the extra cost, the customer doesn't have to worry about it; I just come in, swap the camera, problem solved.

 

But then if you go online, these same cameras can be found for well under $200 from various unauthorized sellers. You can buy them there, but if they fail, chances are you'll have no warranty coverage, no recourse, and you'll end up with a pretty high-tech doorstop.

[chesterfield 0]

That sounds very much an issue to do with the contracts being sold to the end user by the integrator. If the end user wants to buy their own equipment then your install quote would reflect this, including the testing and visual inspection of every item before you fit it, with the customer being made aware of any faulty items during the testing phase. They would also know that the warranty you are providing is for the installation and management of the equipment. Any physical hardware faults are not covered. Its the same with any install only contract.

 

You have to ask how an "unauthorized" seller is able to get hold of the products and sell them at the price they do?

 

When the products leave the factory, they go to the wholesalers. They then get sold to the individual retailers. It is then up to the retailers whether they simply sell online, or they want to be in installer and only sell as part of installation.

 

If somebody is able to sell these cameras for $200, and you are paying 50% more at $300 then that sounds like there are too many hops in a supply chain. The markup of $50 on a $300 item is another 16%. Is there any wonder why the customer is buying online when your price is 75% higher for the hardware?

 

The way the customer could look at it (and the way it can be sold to the customer) is, if you are looking at 10 x $350 cameras for $3500, but you can get them online at $2000. Then you are effectively saving $1500. You would need an 80% failure rate of your $200 cameras to be in a position where you would have been better off paying $350 for each camera and having the warranty.

[Soundy 1]

^Don't forget the cost of the service call - at $100 a pop - for me to come in and determine that the problem IS the failed camera... and then the service call to come in and reinstall the new camera (of course, the customer can install it himself, thus voiding the warranty on the installation itself).

[chesterfield 0]

So if you installed the camera you wouldn't charge the service call for a faulty camera?

[rory 0]

If somebody is able to sell these cameras for $200, and you are paying 50% more at $300 then that sounds like there are too many hops in a supply chain. The markup of $50 on a $300 item is another 16%. Is there any wonder why the customer is buying online when your price is 75% higher for the hardware?

Generally to buy from the manufacturer or manufacturer reps you need to deal with large amounts of sales. Smaller companies cant so they buy at higher costs. So yeah, there can be 2 or 3 inbetweens before it reaches you. Just like generally the client cant buy from your distributor, you generally cant buy from your distributors distributor, etc, unless you are pushing the sales they are. So I wouldn't go blaming the installer, blame the manufacturer and then the manufacturer rep and then the large distributor .. who the installer buys from In other words the installer is buying at the same price the client can go online and buy at - lets face it if the installer is stocking products to resell, then to stay in business they have to add a markup and enough to cover expenses and give them a reason for even doing it to begin with.

 

Also just because the client is willing to take the chance of buying from someone because it is cheaper, doesnt mean the installer who does it for a living, wants to take such chances.

 

Seriously though, people are in it for the money, if there is no money to be made, or they are just making peanuts, might as well do something else. Companies like big online CCTV retailers can sell so low because they have huge sales numbers, they get cheaper prices from the manufacturers than I or you would due to their huge sales numbers, and their warranty can be very limited compared to some others that sell the same product at a higher cost.

 

Just saying, I am in no way condoning overpricing like I found on a recent quote a client showed me, $10K for a 32 channel DVR that costs approx $1000 dealer price. Even with shipping and customs duty and local markup, that was pretty ridiculous, unless they were giving them a 10 year warranty! And they felt the product sucked that bad that it would even fail to begin with.

[chesterfield 0]

Seriously though, people are in it for the money, if there is no money to be made, or they are just making peanuts, might as well do something else. Companies like big online CCTV retailers can sell so low because they have huge sales numbers, they get cheaper prices from the manufacturers than I or you would due to their huge sales numbers, and their warranty can be very limited compared to some others that sell the same product at a higher cost.

 

So more or less justifying the reasoning behind installers loving the pricing model used by manufaturers that sheild their prices from the end consumer. That way, no matter where you are in the supply chain, its very hard for a customer to find prices to compare.

 

Sounds like the installers/integrators need to decide whether they want to make money from their knowledge and skills of installing CCTV or make money from the hardware. Take the example of the $300 camera being marked up to $350. That makes it 75% more expensive than the customer can find online. If the integrator had not marked up the camera, then the price is only 50% higher. Still quite a margin in the customers eyes, but not the 75% it was before. Then its up to the integrator to sell their services and expert knowledge and show the customer thats what they are paying for. Trying to make money at both ends, its no surprise that a lot of customers are just buying online and going DIY. The large corporations will still buy through and use the services of installers and integrators etc. They can write off the taxes (VAT in the UK) and also offset the cost against their corporation tax. Plus the CCTV cost is probably peanuts in their overal budget, so the difference of a few thousand dollars isnt really that much.

 

To the smaller business, in this economic climate, price will be very high on the list of priorities, so it would be wise if the installer could keep the price of their equipment as low as possible. Load the margin you would have made on the cameras into the labour or maintenance contract costs, then it doesnt matter of the customer buys their equipment online - you still make your margin. And you are then removing all margin from the one item the customer can check prices on. They can hardly compare your maintenance contract with someone else unless they have all the specifics of it, and go to the trouble of geting the specifics of somebody elses.

[Soundy 1]

So if you installed the camera you wouldn't charge the service call for a faulty camera?

If we SOLD them the camera, and it's within the warranty period, no.

[rory 0]

Sounds like the installers/integrators need to decide whether they want to make money from their knowledge and skills of installing CCTV or make money from the hardware.

 

Well there are installers, then there are installers who also own stores, or stores that also install. There are even installers that do other things other than CCTV. Cant tell someone they can only do ONE thing, right now everyone is just trying to make money anyway they can to stay alive, and if it means doing several things then so be it - they might only get 1 CCTV install a year for all we know. Its no different from any other industry in this regard, from A/C to Electrical, same thing, everybody marks up anything they sell. It takes time to go buy something using your credit/debit card, handle shipping, stock it, keep it stocked when it might get discontinued, and ofcourse provide a local warranty - and time is money.

 

If a client wants me to buy a hard drive for a DVR that Im installing for them, do you honestly think that I am going to get in my truck and sit in 2 hours of traffic and wreak havic on my vehicle .. to buy something and not charge a markup on the product??? Either I mark it up or charge them 2 hours labour - or they go buy the thing themselves. If they are cheap they normally go buy it themselves, and I dont blame them at all for trying to save a few dollars, I would do the same.

[Soundy 1]

Seriously though, people are in it for the money, if there is no money to be made, or they are just making peanuts, might as well do something else.

I think it's a little cynical to word it as "people are in it for the money". A business HAS to be able to MAKE money, or there's no point (or like the sign I saw on a store wall once, "This is a non-profit organization. It wasn't intended to be, but that's the way it worked out.")

 

Companies like big online CCTV retailers can sell so low because they have huge sales numbers, they get cheaper prices from the manufacturers than I or you would due to their huge sales numbers, and their warranty can be very limited compared to some others that sell the same product at a higher cost.

Not to mention, they have very low overhead. They don't have to support technicians' salaries, many of them have little or no physical location to support... a guy sitting in his den on his laptop can easily get a bulk deal on a bunch of equipment (possibly factory seconds, grey market, someone else's overstock or liquidation), stuff it all in his garage, and re-sell it below dealer cost while still making a profit... and there's nothing to force him to have ANY kind of after-sale support.

 

Meanwhile, the legitimate integrator has to continue to provide phone and on-site support before, during, and after the job... he has to go through proper channels if he wants gear that will give HIM warranty coverage... he's the one providing free advice to the customer that ends up going for the cheap way out...

 

Sounds like the installers/integrators need to decide whether they want to make money from their knowledge and skills of installing CCTV or make money from the hardware

What's wrong with making money from both?

 

Look at it this way: you're prancing in here spouting your utopian view of how you think businesses should be run. EVERYONE ELSE who actually does this for a living is telling you, that's not an effective, efficient, or practical way to operate (nevermind profitable). If you think your way will work, then you go ahead and open a CCTV business under that model... see how long it lasts. I can GUARANTEE you, there are others here who've tried the same thing, and if they stayed in the business, have moved away from that model, because it DOESN'T work long-term.

[chesterfield 0]

Well there are installers, then there are installers who also own stores, or stores that also install. There are even installers that do other things other than CCTV. Cant tell someone they can only do ONE thing, right now everyone is just trying to make money anyway they can to stay alive, and if it means doing several things then so be it -

 

Exactly my point, but some installers/integrators are geting upset that customers can buy products online, hence falling in love wth manufacturers that hide pricing from the end users, so they can markup the equipmet AND the labour.

 

Its no different from any other industry in this regard, from A/C to Electrical, same thing, everybody marks up anything they sell.

There is a difference between anything and everything. Markup everything and you will get customers trying to find it cheaper. Sell the products cheaper and markup your labour and the customer can see you arent riping them off on the hardware. In my view thats more likely to end up in a sale, as the customer can see what they are paying for. YOur service and knowledge, which is something they CANT buy online.

 

If a client wants me to buy a hard drive for a DVR that Im installing for them, do you honestly think that I am going to get in my truck and sit in 2 hours of traffic and wreak havic on my vehicle .. to buy something and not charge a markup on the product??? Either I mark it up or charge them 2 hours labour - or they go buy the thing themselves. If they are cheap they normally go buy it themselves, and I dont blame them at all for trying to save a few dollars, I would do the same.

 

So instalers/integrators dont blame a customer for wanting to save a few dollars, but have threads on how to avoid "smart" customers and love setups tha hide prices from a customer so they can add hidden margins and the customer has no choice? I guess these customers arent facing the same hardships as everyone else are they?

 

Take for example when I posted a section of the MSRP list for avigilon th other day - it was removed, even though it is publicly available using google. The only possible explanation for this, is that installers dont want customers seeing the prices as they are inflating them. Thats the real reason behind the jump to such manufacturers that hide prices. I now have the full MSRP, so it will be interesting to see when I get my quotes just why the retailers love the fact that I dont know the real MSRP (or at least thts whet they think).

 

As I say, if installers want to bang on about their expertise, then thats what they should sell and not get all upset when a customer finds cheaper hardware, instead of burning the candle at both ends...

[tomcctv 190]

Take for example when I posted a section of the MSRP list for avigilon th other day

 

 

Dave will have replied to your email by now. it will be along the lines of we do not supply to end users or trained installers. they will not deal with you direct.

 

 

 

 

looking though your posts it sounds as if you are looking to buy the equipment yourself and find an installer to fit it for you.... that in is self is a problem.

[Soundy 1]

Exactly my point, but some installers/integrators are geting upset that customers can buy products online, hence falling in love wth manufacturers that hide pricing from the end users, so they can markup the equipmet AND the labour.

You're bitter about Avigilon specifically, but the fact is, integrators that love them, love them because they're far and above the herd in quality, both the cameras and the software.

 

Take for example when I posted a section of the MSRP list for avigilon th other day - it was removed, even though it is publicly available using google. The only possible explanation for this, is that installers dont want customers seeing the prices as they are inflating them.

The reason was explained to you. Just because Google can find it, still doesn't mean it's SUPPOSED to be available. Besides that, it was also pointed out to you that that's a very old list and the prices on it aren't applicable now.

 

Thats the real reason behind the jump to such manufacturers that hide prices. I now have the full MSRP, so it will be interesting to see when I get my quotes just why the retailers love the fact that I dont know the real MSRP (or at least thts whet they think).

Enough with the conspiracy theories. Again, you think you have a better business model, you go ahead and use it... let us all know how it works for you.

[chesterfield 0]

What's wrong with making money from both?

 

Nothing wrong with it. But if the customer goes and finds cheaper hardware, then its up to you to explain the differences in charges and sell your services as a justification for the price difference.

 

Its a little hypocritical to call my view utopian, and then moan when a customer shops round to get cheaper hardware than the prices quoted by an installer adding margins in both areas.

 

Look at it this way: you're prancing in here spouting your utopian view of how you think businesses should be run. EVERYONE ELSE who actually does this for a living is telling you, that's not an effective, efficient, or practical way to operate (nevermind profitable). If you think your way will work, then you go ahead and open a CCTV business under that model... see how long it lasts. I can GUARANTEE you, there are others here who've tried the same thing, and if they stayed in the business, have moved away from that model, because it DOESN'T work long-term.

 

Really? How very presumptuous. FYI I do run my own business, and although not in the CCTV area, it is in a sector that can make margins on the goods or the services. We give our services for free and make money on the goods. There are others in our industry that do it the other way round, and then there are those that do both. Its the ones doing both that are losing clients in this climate, and then moaning about the clients shoping around.

 

But then again I dont work with suppliers that keep their prices a secret from the end user just to line the pockets of the middle men

[chesterfield 0]

Take for example when I posted a section of the MSRP list for avigilon th other day

 

 

Dave will have replied to your email by now. it will be along the lines of we do not supply to end users or trained installers. they will not deal with you direct.

 

 

 

 

looking though your posts it sounds as if you are looking to buy the equipment yourself and find an installer to fit it for you.... that in is self is a problem.

 

Havent' emailed Dave, Im asking for quotes from those that do sell the equipmet. As I say, it will be inetersting to see how far adrift from the MSRP the prices are from the installers. Then we will see the real reason for keeping the prices apparently hidden from the end consumer...