ahh I see

[chesterfield 0]

Can I ask why the thread discussing business models etc was locked?

 

Is it acceptable to have threads running to 4 pages from installers etc discussing how to avoid "smart" customers, berating them for using methods of getting quotes and then trying to do it cheaper, but when a customer has a thread discussing the business model of installers etc it gets locked? Why the double standards?

 

To then not even be sent a message advising why its locked is poor moderation at best. Is there some written rule that we can only discuss and complain about customers tactics and not those of installers?

[Soundy 1]

Can I ask why the thread discussing business models etc was locked?

Because it was going in circles and accomplishing nothing. You postulated your conspiracy theories and were unwilling to listen to anyone's explanations, so there was no point in further discussion.

[chesterfield 0]

Hows about the comments made by some installers stating that they like the sales model from tha manufacturer specifically because it stops customers shoping online and beating ther prices?

 

Exactly how is that a conspiracy theory when an installer has specifically stated that themselves?

 

There was also discussion not just around that but also other sales models and how they may be adpated or altered to deal with a changing market. It appears that DIYers or more specifically customers that shop around on the internet can be a problem for the installers that operate in that area/scale of the market. There was discussion on difering techniques to deal with that issue, and how differing sales models can impart different opinions on customers while still retaining the same margins for suppliers. That specific manufacturer aside there seemed to be some healthy discussion in other areas, but meh, whatever.

 

Im sorting out my system via a couple of installers, Ill pay what ever I end up paying. Having worked out the cost of my system would probably account for about 0.5% of Avigilons entire sales in the UK so far, Im fairly certain Ill be looked after as a customer if I choose them.

 

If there is any further discussion on various business models from suppliers, manufacturers, installers or retailers Ill just stay away from them, its clear my views are different to those of others and Im obviously a novice in this area so Ill pass on those threads.

[nDAlk90 0]

If you were an installer you would like that business model also. Customers who want high quality equipment (Security, AV, Speakers, Locks, etc.) go to a dealer.

There are some products marketed to end users (diy) and some which are only available for sale from dealers / installers.

Avigilon did not make up this way of doing business.

 

Have you ever heard of the rainbow vacuum cleaner? Go try and buy it at Best Buy. You Cant.

Have you heard of Mul-T-Lock high security locks? Go try and buy it at HomeDepot. You Cant.

 

If you want there product you have to play by the rules they set up. You cant make up your own and expect them to abide by it. I do understand your perspective though.

 

Hows about the comments made by some installers stating that they like the sales model from tha manufacturer

Edited January 7, 2012 by Guest

[Soundy 1]

Hows about the comments made by some installers stating that they like the sales model from tha manufacturer specifically because it stops customers shoping online and beating ther prices?

 

Exactly how is that a conspiracy theory when an installer has specifically stated that themselves?

Of course they LIKE the idea - anyone who's had to battle undercutting grey-market online pricing would.

 

You suggested, however, that this ability to "charge whatever they want for markup because nobody can look up the prices" (paraphrased) was the PRIMARY or SOLE reason that these installers were using Avigilon... something that, frankly, is ridiculous. As xellbuy notes, it's hardly a business model that's unique to Avigilon, or to this industry.

[chesterfield 0]

If you were an installer you would like that business model also. Customers who want high quality equipment (Security, AV, Speakers, Locks, etc.) go to a dealer.

There are some products marketed to end users (diy) and some which are only available for sale from dealers / installers.

Avigilon did not make up this way of doing business.

 

Have you ever heard of the rainbow vacuum cleaner? Go try and buy it at Best Buy. You Cant!

Have you heard of Mul-T-Lock high security locks? Go try and buy it at HomeDepot. You Cant!

 

If you want there product you have to play by the rules they set up. You cant make up your own and expect them to abide by it.

 

 

Never heard of either in the UK. However a quick search reveals that perhaps we have a slightly different business model in the UK for Mul_T-Loc as I can buy Mul-T-Lock from no less than about 20 local small locksmiths in about a 20 mile radius. All in a hand little list provided to me by Mul-T-Loc themselves.

Here - after 30 seconds: http://www.saundersonsecurity.co.uk/acatalog/Mul_T_Lock_Single_Euro_Cylinder_MIN_EUSGL.html

 

If I want to buy that lock, I can research its prices online and then buy it.

 

As for the rainbow vacuum cleaner, its not used that much over here, although its sales structure is very similar to a few items sold over here, like Avon for example. Its more of a ponzi pyramid scheme than a sales model. Designed specifically for those at the top to get rich due to the hard work of those at the bottom whom all have the dream of being further up the pyramid and having people below selling for them..

 

As for suggesting it is the sole reason, is that an unreasonable conclusion for an end user to draw when they see coments from retailers stating that they like the model for that specific reason, and all of a sudden a retailer stops promoting (or even actively discouraging) hardware they previously sold in favour of this new brand?

 

As I say, maybe its a different sales methodology from the US to the UK, as Ive rarely come across anything like the Avigilon model fo specifically hiding the MSRP from end users. I think smaller scale/small business customers within the UK will be a lot more difficult to sell to with that business model in the UK market. Or EU market for that matter given the state of the economy over here and in the wider Europe.

 

I dont know if Ive made this clear or not, Im not looking to buy direct from Avigilon. If I buy Avigilon, I will be buying from an installer - however what I don't see the point in is the hiding of pricing. I can see why its an attractive model for installers, because it makes no difference if you are lower down the chain and have to buy/sell the kit above retail, whereas another installer buys enough to be able to get straight from the distributor. No installer needs to worry about customers finding cheaper prices online, as customers cant find it. So the customer doesnt know if they are getting the best deal or not. Its a model that offers protection to installers who havent got the best supply chain.

 

Anyway, as Ive said, Im not bothred about discussing the sales model used by that supplier any more. Its clear some here like it, and some don't. Whatever floats each persons boat I suppose.

 

The discussion had moved on to talk about differing sales models to cope with customers that shop around online and how different models can impart different impressions upon a customer. Kind of another version of the "how to avoid smart customers" but looking at the flip side of the problem and seeing how people can work "with" smart customers. I just thought it may be interesting to see different ideas. Given the current climate I thought like minded businesses would have thought that an interesting topic. ?

[thewireguys 3]

chesterfield How would you like it if we told you your making to much money? How would your react?

 

They want the product to be installed by professional installers that know what they are doing. They don't want 10K phone calls from end users that don't know how to design and install the product correctly.

 

Airports, stadiums and large business are not gonna shop prices on the web. They want integrators that know what they are doing and are going to be around to support the product.

[chesterfield 0]

chesterfield How would you like it if we told you your making to much money? How would your react?

 

They want the product to be installed by professional installers that know what they are doing. They don't want 10K phone calls from end users that don't know how to design and install the product correctly.

 

Airports, stadiums and large business are not gonna shop prices on the web. They want integrators that know what they are doing and are going to be around to support the product.

 

Congratulations on missing the entire point of the post.

 

Ill try and make it simple.

 

I am not saying anyone is making too much money. Its the areas in which they make it that can alter a customers perception. For a product that can be shopped online, if large margins are added to the hardware, the customer gets the impression they are being robbed, so passes up the quote. If the margin is in the service, then they see the price is good for the hardware, so immediatley view the quote favourably as they dont feel they are being robbed.

 

I am not saying the manufacturer will sell directly to the end user. Never have suggested this. What I have suggested is why the MSRP is not made public. The ONLY reason I can see for not maiking this public, is to protect the smaller installers that cannot buy the volume to compete with larger installers. i.e. hiding from the consumer whether they are getting a good deal (or close to the suggested retail price) as advised by the manufacturer.

 

As I have previously said, economic situations vary. Large busineses and government will sometimes shop around. They will also compare quotes. It is all dependant on the economics in each area. For example the ublic sector in the vast majority of the UK (so everything from governmenet to schools) HAS to get a minimum of three quotes and HAS to test each of those quotes (they may choose to use online methods to do so). If they cant test the value of the quote, then the quote is binned. Fact.

 

I shop prices on the web for my business where possible. The fact I keep a good eye on the costs to my business means both my staff and I can offer better prices/quality to my customers. Its the same theory for any business regardless of size.

[thewireguys 3]

I will make it very simple for you.

 

This is not Avigilon's model so stop complaining about it

 

"Large busineses and government will sometimes shop around. They will also compare quotes"

 

FYI where I live Government projects HAVE to get multiple bids and they do without online prices.

 

Their model stops DYI from installing products that they have no clue how to install and they can control the quality if the solution.

[chesterfield 0]

I will make it very simple for you.

 

This is not Avigilon's model so stop complaining about it

 

"Large busineses and government will sometimes shop around. They will also compare quotes"

 

FYI where I live Government projects HAVE to get multiple bids and they do without online prices.

 

Their model stops DYI from installing products that they have no clue how to install and they can control the quality if the solution.

 

We will have to agree to disagree I think. I can fully understand your point on government projects. They will get prices and as long as they are all close enough to each other they pick what they want.

 

However, thats public money. Anyone with any experience of dealing with the public sector in the UK will know just how little they know about purchasing anything. They just see the numbers and its a mentality of a bottomless pit of money anyway

 

When dealing withthe private sector, its a whole diferent game. That is their own money. They tend to be more protective over it. Larger corporations with multi million budgets wont much care, as its a tiny cost to them.

 

However, as discussed reviously with Avigilon, their "core" system licensed for 4 cameras is now startingto aim toward the Small Business sector. If they think that in the UK small businesses wont shop online to try and save money, they are mistaken. If they cant find prices, they will compare with the quote they get from the installer offering cheaper units and cameras. They wont have security teams that can fully understand the tech behind the quote, and they will go for the cheaper option.

 

Time will tell how well the products aimed at the small business within the UK will do with that model. I suspect the larger corporate and government installations will do quite well - especially considering we are well behind other countries in terms of IP CCTV, and the recent unrest due to economic issues is forcing people to look at upgrading. But for the SME side I wouldnt be so confident.

[SEANHAWG 1]

The business model seems to be working quite well for Avigilon. They just made it on Security Top 50 list this year @ 46:

http://www.asmag.com/security50/Rankings.aspx

 

And was #1 as far as revenue growth:

http://www.asmag.com/security50/index.aspx

 

 

 

But all they have to do is sell one or 2 cameras to get on that list Sorry I had to.

 

I think their business model works out quite well for them. I dont see them changing it anytime in the future. As they get more popular, you may start to see a slip up and get a price somewhere online but I doubt that you will ever be able to purchase them online, unless you are buying a used model.

[rory 0]

[ak357 0]

The business model seems to be working quite well for Avigilon. They just made it on Security Top 50 list this year @ 46:

http://www.asmag.com/security50/Rankings.aspx

 

And was #1 as far as revenue growth:

http://www.asmag.com/security50/

 

I think their business model works out quite well for them. I dont see them changing it anytime in the future. As they get more popular, you may start to see a slip up and get a price somewhere online but I doubt that you will ever be able to purchase them online, unless you are buying a used model.

 

And in 2011 gross about 60 Millions

almost double from year before

[rory 0]

And in 2011 gross about 60 Millions

almost double from year before

 

how much shares you got dawg??

[tomcctv 189]

I dont know if Ive made this clear or not, Im not looking to buy direct from Avigilon. If I buy Avigilon, I will be buying from an installer

 

chesterfield you still dont understand how avigilon works. YOU CANT BUY FROM AN INSTALLER not in the uk.

 

Im sorting out my system via a couple of installers, Ill pay what ever I end up paying. Having worked out the cost of my system would probably account for about 0.5% of Avigilons entire sales in the UK so far, Im fairly certain Ill be looked after as a customer if I choose them.

 

 

unless you are a airport/ ship dock / customs house. you WILL not get them to install for you not in a domestic house.

 

 

 

as far as the sites you have found in the uk. 1 being in kent. avigilon withdraw there partnership in 2008. check company house.

 

 

 

then there is the bad part. you know what will happen after the install you can tell from your posts you will start to bargin on price you will want this cheaper that cheaper you are just an installers nightmare. so long as you are ok it does not matter if the installer can put food on his family table or not.

[rory 0]

I dont know if Ive made this clear or not, Im not looking to buy direct from Avigilon. If I buy Avigilon, I will be buying from an installer

 

chesterfield you still dont understand how avigilon works. YOU CANT BUY FROM AN INSTALLER not in the uk.

 

Im sorting out my system via a couple of installers, Ill pay what ever I end up paying. Having worked out the cost of my system would probably account for about 0.5% of Avigilons entire sales in the UK so far, Im fairly certain Ill be looked after as a customer if I choose them.

 

 

unless you are a airport/ ship dock / customs house. you WILL not get them to install for you not in a domestic house.

 

 

 

as far as the sites you have found in the uk. 1 being in kent. avigilon withdraw there partnership in 2008. check company house.

 

 

 

then there is the bad part. you know what will happen after the install you can tell from your posts you will start to bargin on price you will want this cheaper that cheaper you are just an installers nightmare. so long as you are ok it does not matter if the installer can put food on his family table or not.

 

Sounds alot like March Networks and Honeywell Video .. look where that eventually got them.

[chesterfield 0]

chesterfield you still dont understand how avigilon works. YOU CANT BUY FROM AN INSTALLER not in the uk.

 

Well I guess the two companies I have contacted that specifically adevrtise Avigilon kit, that are currently working on instalation designs and quotes must be using the Avigilon logo and products without permission then.

 

As my "small domestic order" will be for about 0.5% of the ENTIRE Avigilon UK sales so far this year. Im fairly certain If I want the kit, Ill get it. Money Talks.

 

 

unless you are a airport/ ship dock / customs house. you WILL not get them to install for you not in a domestic house.

 

Would you like a bet?

 

as far as the sites you have found in the uk. 1 being in kent. avigilon withdraw there partnership in 2008. check company house.

 

Neither of the companies I have contacted is in Kent.

 

then there is the bad part. you know what will happen after the install you can tell from your posts you will start to bargin on price you will want this cheaper that cheaper you are just an installers nightmare. so long as you are ok it does not matter if the installer can put food on his family table or not.

 

Trying to bargain after the install would be a little strange, but maybe thats how you bargain. It would explain your business accumen for certain. There is a negotiation period with any sale. Unless I like the price there and then, and Ill accept it. Ive done both. If the quote comes back around my ball park figure that Ive come to myself, then Ill just accept it. If I think there may be some wiggle room Ill negotiate. If the installer cant go as low as Id like, then they can either decline the job, or I need to re-evaluate my budget.

 

And in 2011 gross about 60 Millions

almost double from year before

 

Published figures for 2011 shows third quarter gross revenue of about $42m, so $60m for the year sounds about right. Net before taxes stod aroun $2.2m I believe. Considering my company managed over £160m ($250m) worth of business in 2011, those sort of numbers dont really make me jump out of my seat. The brokers worked their magic coming up with the numbers they did when it floated by rasing the capital they did based on the 2010 figures too, but thats a whole other topic.

 

Either way, Ive lost count now of the number of times Ive said this, but here again... I do not want to buy Avigilon online. Is that clear enough? If I buy Avigilon, it will be through a retailer/installer. My only point/suggestion/accusation was that the hiding of the MSRP online plays into the hands of dealers that do not have an efficient supply chain and have no option other than to sell way above MSRP. If the MSRP was public, these installers would find it difficult to compete with others that can buy larger numbers. i.e. they would have the same problem that they have with online retailers now, just that the kit would not be available online.

 

So can we leave the Avigilon debate now? If I get it, Ill let you know. If I dont Ill let you know why. Is there any chance of discussing how small businesses should compete with online retailers? As this was stated as being one of the problems in the industry right now - so how should it be addressed?

[thewireguys 3]

Is there any chance of discussing how small businesses should compete with online retailers? As this was stated as being one of the problems in the industry right now - so how should it be addressed?

 

I would love to hear your thoughts and ideas.

[SEANHAWG 1]

Considering my company managed over £160m ($250m) worth of business in 2011

 

I do somewhat see your point in this discussion, although like I said before, Avigilons business model is working great for them so I dont blame them to keep doing what they are doing. But since you do not like keeping secrets, let us know what your business is and what you do. If its that big of a company, its not much of a secret anyways. Just curious as I like to know about successful business owners.

[chesterfield 0]

I own a business within the UK dealing specifically with the corporate and SME (small medium enterprise) sectors. So work within an industry where customers can (and do) shop around.

 

I suppose as our industry has always been one where customers can shop around, we havent had to adapt to the new age of customers being able to research everything online. Its always been the case that they can find other prices. Today they can just find them quicker. This has raised issues for our industry in terms of being able to quote quickly, and even embracing online technologies ourselves, even for the corporate and SME sector.

 

In terms of the cctv area, and especially as manufacturers do seem to be moving from corporate to also developing products for the SME, then within the UK in my experience they will find it difficult if these smaller businesses can not test the value of quotes either online or by phone etc.

 

As for businesses having to deal with consumers shopping around, perhaps adding the majority of margin into items that cannot possibly be tested online - the expertise and knowledge. That may mean DIY customers purchases result in very little margin, however oncethey run into trouble they may well return to the same place to purchase that, which cant possibly be bought online. Having not owned a cctv business I have no first hand experience of the issue so just surmising what I would do given the same situation.

[SEANHAWG 1]

Yeah I know, but what is the name of your business. Take me 4 example: I am sean, the owner of nellys surplus. Your turn.

[chesterfield 0]

If you were asking the question about my business on a forum specifically dedicated to my business, then I may oblige. As however I have discussed the valuables I wish to protect, and the fact I have no cctv security system, I would rather not pass out my business name as those who view this forum as a guest could do all the research they like if you get my drift.. What I can say is that our margins run at around 1-1.5%, so while the profits are low, we have the volume over value.

 

We have to sell our services, as that is sometimes the only way to distinguis our products from the competition. Our supply chain is Supplier > to customer. We broker the deal betwen the two. The customers contract is direct with the supplier. We assist in the process making commissions from the supplier, the customer then has our services during the period of the contract they have with the supplier. The customer is free to contract direct with the supplier not using our services at all if they wish. However in the majority of the cases they go through us as the services we provide save them time/money.

[SEANHAWG 1]

n I may oblige. As however I have discussed the valuables I wish to protect, and the fact I have no cctv security system, I would rather not pass out my business name as those who view this forum as a guest could do all the research they like if you get my drift

 

People knowing you have CCTV does not encourage them to burglarize, it only deters so its not like this would be detrimental.

 

If you were asking the question about my business on a forum specifically dedicated to my business, then I may oblige.

 

I pick up alot of business on other forums with my business signature. Bass Fishing forums, website design forums, etc have all gotten me business. But thats my prerogative and not yours and I respect that.

 

But here is the problem, you came on here complaining about not being able to find prices online about Avigilon products, which I can see your point somewhat. But here is what diminishes your credibility: You complain about Avigilon keeping pricing a secret, yet you cant disclose what your business is but yet you have no problem flaunting that you own a Ferrari, your company grossed a quarter billion last year, and your home install will account for Avigilon UK's .5% of total sales last year. And whats even funnier is that you made all this money, enough to buy a Ferrari, yet you are going to install a high end system yourself. I am not saying this is the case on this one, but nine times out of 10, when someone talks big like this, they are usually full of:

 

[chesterfield 0]

Did I state I was going to install the system myself? Im capable of setting up a serve, no problem. Even the ground floor wiring, and network assembly. But I have vertigo, so cant even get to the top of a first floor ladder. Theres no way Id be installing any high mounted cameras myself. Just looking for some way of testing the retailers quotes who sell it me. Did you miss the bit where I stated I would be buying it from an installer?

 

We managed that much in the last financial year. As our industry is managing relationships between the consumer and the direct supplier, that money doesnt pass through out accounts, therefor we dont have to declare it as revenue. Only our direct invoices to suppliers. This way we can still lodge abreviated accounts in the UK. Its a totally different financial model to the supplier>distributor>deaaler>consumer model.

 

I also learnt many years ago there is no point lying on the internet. Its there for ever, for everyone to see and if you do it, one day it will bite you in the backside. So its best not to.

 

I wasnt the one who brought up my car/s. Somebody told me that when buying a that model of car its not as easy as buying a kia you have to do more digging. Actually I do have some first hand experience in that, so I pointed out he was wrong. Ive hardly flaunted it. Other people have mentioned it more than I have. Someone else stated that unless I was a port/etc I wouldnt be getting avigilon in the UK. I can see Avigilon UKs contribution to the overall corporations revenue, and I have a rough estimate of what my system will cost. I have also found two retailers specifically advertising Avigilon installations and equipment (though of course without prices) which is why I have contacted them for quotes. One of them will get my order.

[tomcctv 189]

I have a rough estimate of what my system will cost.

 

 

chesterfield. your words above. with out you hiding information please list the products you have chosen for your home. how many cameras what type. how big is the network and we will all give you a price (your posted budget is 8k)